Talk:Heydar Aliyev

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I noticed that this page is repeating a number of details that the Sobaka dossier says were manufactured by Aliyev, and aren't true.

Specifically, the claims that are disputed are: Birthplace: Sobaka says he was born in Armenia. Birth year: Sobaka says he tried to shave three years off his age. College education: Our page says he took a degree in history at Azerbaijan State University in Baku. The Sobaka dossier notes this claim and says that he was actually attending the Ministry of State Security Academy, and that Putin dug out the truth about this in 2001.

I consider Sobaka fairly reliable, but I can't find anything else on the web to confirm these claims. Can someone tell me their sources for the original information? If it was taken from Heydar's old official website, then it would seem that we're just echoing his attempts to rewrite his own past. Isomorphic 05:27, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Update: I did find this page, which mentions Aliyev and says he was born in Armenia. It's on the website of the Institute for War and Peace Reporting. Isomorphic 05:43, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Reputation

Something might be made of Aliyev's almost hero-like reputation within Azerbaijan today, at least officially. As well as being regarded by many as a crook, he is also the man who "brought Azerbaijan to the West", and is pictured all over the country in banners, in calendars on school walls. Small shrines dedicated to Heydar Aliyev can be found in most public buildings. That is, many Azeris would call this article unfairly biased, and would be quite offended at its content. I might add some if I have time about this subject, but wondered what other editors think. It would be nice to give a less completely negative image of a man seen as the father of Azerbaijan by many Azeris. --Jacobolus 09:36, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My impression is that he has a glowing reputation in Azerbaijan partly because he manufactured himself a glowing reputation. History suggests that this is not hard to do when you personally control a country's government. Aliyev may not have reached the level of a Kim Jong Il or a Saparmurad Niyazov, but "small shrines to him can be found in most public buildings" sounds like classic cult-of-personality style leadership.
That said, I agree that the current article focuses a bit much on the negative. More on the positive aspects of his rule would be welcomed. When discussing leaders like Aliyev, I also think it's important that a leader should be judged in comparison with other third-world leaders, not by developed Western standards. Isomorphic 20:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well I do not see how this article is offending, despite feeble attempts at cult of personality there remains in Azerbaijan a strong apathy about Aliev and his ruling elite. There is no outright condemnation from the majoiry (there is a minority of vocal opposition) but to say that he achieved a cult-like status is ridiculous. Most just accept him as a necessary nuisance. Abdulnr 22:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

I thought Wikipedia convention was to use the name most commonly seen in English. Introducing a foreign letter isn't appropriate unless that letter is also used when writing the name in an English-language context. Isomorphic 05:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The article title should be written in English, I think, otherwise people who don’t speak Azeri would not know how to spell it correctly. Grandmaster 05:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
About this subject, you can read Talk:İlham Əliyev. Švitrigaila 11:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heydər Əliyev died in Cleveland?

I never knew that, actually. Then again, the Cleveland Clinic is known for its superior medical services, so why am I not surprised... -- Clevelander 02:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious views

"Əliyev thus became the first Muslim full member of the Politburo." I really doubt the factual basis for this sentence. As there is also no lack of former high members of the Communist Party who turned out to be devote Orthodox Christians later, the claim to be "first" this or that needs factual evidence about one's beliefs from the time before the fall of USSR to be taken seriously. Then again, everything is possible. Claims that have high propagandistic value are not necessarily untrue, they just need hard evidence before being spread. --Oop 22:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but this awkward sentence has a sense. It means Əliyev was the first member from a "nationality" of traditionnaly Muslim people. And I wonder if it's really the truth. There was Mikhail Frunze from Kyrgystan before him, but Frunze was not a true Kyrgyz, he was of Romanian descent. Can someone find other examples? Švitrigaila 23:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
He indeed was the first an only ethnic Muslim to be the member of Politburo. Frunze was not Kyrgyz, and there were no other Muslims in Politburo. Grandmaster 04:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


Saying that someone is "ethnic Muslim" is totally ridicilous. As far as I know, Əliyev was leader of some atheist organization in the CCCP. Later he "found" religion to be a unifying power for Azeris but that shouldn't have anything to do with hos Politbyro time.. I think this should be simply removed.

[edit] Karabag War

It is simply propaganda to accuse Əliyev of Mountain-Karabag-war. Especially this chapter must be removed totally:

"He also tried but failed to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis, attempting a military solution in December 1993 that eventually resulted in 16% of Azerbaijani territories under occupation of Armenia and an estimated 30,000 deaths and the displacement of a further 750,000 Azeris. The issue remains unresolved, with Armenian rule continuing in Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan still hosting several hundred thousand refugees."

Although it is true that Azeris tried to counterattack Armenian advances but still blaming Əliyev for whole war and 30 000 deaths is ridiculous. From text you could also think that 30 000 Azeris died because of this attack and 750 000 had to leave their homes. 750 000 is maybe right during the whole war, but 30 000 dead were a result of whole war, not this attack. This 30 000 includes both Armenians and Azeris.

There should also be a note that he became president mainly because of the unstability caused by losing of war.

Edit:typos

Olli J.

Agree, the claim is ridiculous. He tried to stop Armenian advances into Azerbaijan's territory, but since the country was in the state of civil war, did not much succeed in that. Only Horadiz was regained. The paragraph above should definately be revised, 30 000 deaths and 750 000 were the result of years of war. Grandmaster 07:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional info

I have created a subpage of mine regarding Heydar Aliyev and have added missing brief info about Aliyev's career in the KGB and his ties with the Azeri mafia which I am proposing we add to the article. I also included a section, "Honors", including the numerous awards and decorations Aliyev has won in his life. Here is the link. Any comments? - Fedayee 20:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rating

There is good basic information here, but detail is lacking, especially his youth and early career. Also, lack of citations hurts this article. ludahai 魯大海 14:36, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV and OR

I added POV and OR tags to section titled KGB and leader of Azerbaijan SSR. Calling someone connected to mafia, just because he was a head of Azerbaijani KGB and Azerbaijan SSR, based on the book by Edmond Azadian, an Armenian author, falls short of any neutrality. The section seems to be only referencing 3 sources repetitively, clearly aimed at character assassination rather than describing the career of the person from a neutral point of view. Other original research sentences, repetitively claim that he was connected to some "mafia". Please, discuss the material in detail, prior to edits in an encyclopedic manner. Thanks. Atabek 11:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

And further proof that Edmond Azadian is a POV writer: [1], who has no knowledge of the issue, claiming "Indeed the occupation of Armenian village of Kerky on the Nakhchivan border introduces a new dimension in the conflict". The village of Karki (Azerbaijan) was actually an Azerbaijani-populated exclave of Nakhchivan, which is currently under control of Armenian forces since 1992. Atabek 14:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Azadian cannot be considered a reliable source. All the references to it should be removed. And indeed, this section reminds yellow press rather than encyclopedic article. Needs to be fixed. Grandmaster 18:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

What is your problem with the other two sources that you are labelling the section "yellow press"? Are we to assume that if Azadian is removed as a source, you both will be happy with the section and its sources?- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 21:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Azadian source is not referencing anything by itself, it only reinforces what two other source already confirm. I believe there is an arbcom remedy somewhere saying that you can't discriminate against Armenian sources. VartanM 23:28, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The article claims:

Aliyev, with the help of the Azeri mafia, earned the profits from the Caspian Sea caviar, Sumgait oil, fruits and vegetables, cotton and customs and transport industries of Azerbaijan

There's no oil in Sumgait. An expert on the region would know that. If an article or book contains such ridiculous claims about "Azeri mafia" or "Sumgait oil", it cannot be taken any seriously. That's why I call it yellow press. If there's indeed such a thing as "Azeri mafia", why no one creates an article about it in Wikipedia? I would be interested to have a look at such an article. Grandmaster 17:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)