Talk:Herbert Schildt

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This page needs to be renamed to the proper full name (Herbert Schildt).—Tetracube 18:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Notes on controversy

Original page's author clarifies: Page was not (originally) meant to be anti-Schildt. I like the guy, he's a good guy and his books are useful entry-level texts for noobs. His books have mistakes that are catchable only by very knowledgeable software developers, who do not write for periodicals (which only do cursory reviews of the glut of computer books - I know, I used to review computer books). These reviews are highly technical and found on usenet etc where real programmers post them. The issues are ones that are not important to noobs, but will bite anyone who tries to use Schildt's information for any serious software development. It is fair, and indeed it would be unfair not to, talk about these issues since they are one of the defining aspects of his 20+ year career as a "world's leading programming author" and note that I did --not-- attack weasel statements like this, but I was careful to link to articles where experts gave their critical review of his books. The problem with wikipedia and why I quit bothering to write articles is any careful look at Schildt (I mean, anyone whose name is in the Jargon File of all places is automatically notable in the computer science world!) because someone will just come along and delete everything. It's a waste of time. I do not understand the reason for wanting --published-- sources for a --computer science-- author where most material will be online, not published. This seems like a self-defeating rule. (BTW Little C itself is quite notable as a long C example that has been around at least 19 years. At least preserve the links to its source!) -- original author, I closed my wikipedia account —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.95.249 (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

And, btw, why was the cover picture of Advanced Turbo Pascal deleted!? This is what makes wikipedia a joke. Book covers are well established as fair use, and this is a vintage book cover probably few people have ever seen that sets Schildt into his time. I can kind of understand deleting the picture of him, but the BOOK COVER? Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.95.249 (talk) 18:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Because the clueless deletion mobs are taking over Wikipedia. I also gave up on Wikipedia a while back because it was clear that Certain People are only interested in blindly enforcing what they perceive to be the citation requirements for articles, and they will delete anything not conforming to this requirement to the letter, in spite of the fact that they have absolutely zero interest in the subject matter. After a few run-ins, I decided that my time is better spent elsewhere, where the effort I put into something isn't immediately undone by someone who isn't even interested in the subject matter to begin with.—Tetracube (talk) 17:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stop edit warring my changes

My standing as a so-called blocked user has no bearing on the Schildt case at all, and last winter the article was stubbed down, and the criticism was removed, by a neutral editor based on the case at biographies of living persons that I'd opened.

It's real cute to send me messages claiming I'd inserted no reason for the undo. It's real cute because

(1) I'd followed procedures and opened up a BLP case on Herb

(2) I've repeated given you exhaustively analysed reasons why the criticism section is NNPOV, original research and in violation of "biographies of living persons".

I ask you to leave Criticism out at least until the BLP case is adjudicated.

Edward G. Nilges

[edit] Newer book reviews/information

My interest in Schildt is completely historical. He is a significant figure in the early IBM PC and MS-DOS days, and that's why I wanted to present historical information about him. His books helped a generation to learn PC programming, and that's the main reason for the entry here, to better document this era for researchers.

If anyone is familiar with Schildt's current (post-2000) books and work, and would like to comment, it would help bring the article up to date. I do not have and don't want to have his modern Java, C#, etc books. I have seen his latest C: The Complete Reference and it's almost the same 1990 book I already have, plus a few random chapters thrown in from his other books.

[edit] Stubbed down

I've stubbed this down somewhat. The references to criticism seems to have been overstated and could be applied to almost any author writing about C during the period. References to professional reviews published by reliable sources should be added, of course, but I've removed the jargon file reference and various links to essays by self-proclaimed professional programmers (I hereby proclaim myself a professional programmer of some thirty years experience).

I've also taken the opportunity to remove some older "HOWTO"-style stuff and links to downloadable code files, etc. Not suitable for an encyclopedia article. I've been particularly draconian with the external links section. --Tony Sidaway 14:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


Good job, Tony. The article now conforms to wikipedia's policies concerning the biographies of living persons and a neutral point of view.

Edward G. Nilges —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.133.218 (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Schildt01 advtpfronta.jpg

Image:Schildt01 advtpfronta.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

As one can easily verify using Google, Schildt's books are often criticised. Unfortunately none of the references that have been offered so far satisfy our strict requirements as explained in WP:BLP and WP:RS. So if someone knows about a book or a newspaper article or similar (not a usenet posting, wiki or personal website, or similar, of which there are plenty) mentioning that the details in Schildt's books are not always correct, then this would be an important edition to the article. --Hans Adler (talk) 15:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

As one can easily verify by thinking, Schildt's critics have amplified their apparent number by means of sock puppetry and simple repetition of a disorganized laundry list of "errors" comprised as a single shot which has its own errors, for, as Hamlet said, use every one according his own deserts, no one should 'scape whipping.
Schildt was targeted as was Kathy Sierra and this beast walks again here.
Schildt empirically confirmed his claims on Microsoft platforms. People, whose knowledge of non-MS platforms is matched by snobbery, failed to confirm his results but he was writing for actual computer programmers, including some about to get fired for not being able to change arrogantly written C programs in an arrogantly promoted, but deficient language. Of course, as Schildt's opponents failed to understand, real programmers actually test code examples before using them.
Schildt wrote from the outside of an unethical "standardisation" effort which tacitly made the false claim that a "standardization" effort will make a bad language reliable and safe, and it appears to me that some members of the effort took out their dishonesty on a safe target rather than question a corporate-dominated effort.
In consequence of wikipedia's poorly written and poorly thought out "no original research" policy, today one book or one article can destroy a person or create a lie. This is the real bullshit.
Edward G. Nilges
Schildt himself claims on his website that he "is an authority on C" and he boosts himself with allegedly being "a member of the original ANSI committee that standardized the C language in 1989, and he was a member of the ANSI/ISO committee that updated that standard in 1999". --rtc (talk) 06:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It appears he was driven away because of his Microsoft background, or left in disgust. But, he was a member. His harassers have made a dishonest attempt to make it appear that he's lying using hearsay and innuendo, because their "evidence" is that they didn't "see" him at meetings. Since when is gossip a wikipedia source?
I am speaking in his defense not because he's a personal friend. He isn't, although after I notified him of my efforts I received a very sincere thank you note. I am speaking in his defense because clumps of people posing as wikipedia editors and usenet programming authorities are pursuing personal vendettas against contributors so unlike them.
The case of Kathy Sierra was one incident. I have also found Jacob Navia, the creator of the lccwin compiler, being harassed on usenet. As a computer author with a smallish reputation exogenous to the internet I find that the internet and the blogosphere is being used by impotent corporate drones on company time to vent hatred and resentment of people with the balls to exit the corporate system, because any reputation, no matter how small, exogenous with respect to the internet and the so-called blogosphere triggers swarms of abuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.96.247 (talk) 18:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Any courtesy, any decency, any attempt to be clear that can be renarrated as prolixity, any grace, any moral seriousness, anything tending towards the sweetness of life, triggers a Pavlovian reaction in people who do nothing all day but eat junk food and sit before computers destroying people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.96.247 (talk) 18:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Has anyone got a copy of ISBN 0585028648? There's no preview on Google Books, but I would expect it to contain the "Bullschildt" entry. -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that we should see this "not a usenet posting, wiki or personal website, or similar" as a dogma. These are websites and usenet posts by voting ISO C committee members and nobody has voiced any doubt that they were in fact written by these committee members. The sources are well within the spirit of WP:BLP and WP:RS. PS: The comp.lang.c faq has been published as a book, too: ISBN 0201845199. --rtc (talk) 15:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I really think books are the way to go. Personally I wouldn't mind too much, but the BLP noticeboard is keeping an eye on this article, and of course they are right. Let's hope that they will accept these books. My library has "C Programming FAQs", so I will have a look. But even then I wouldn't want to say much more than that the quality of some of his books has been questioned and where to find a list of errors, for example. --Hans Adler (talk) 18:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Go ahead, I really won't insist on some specific wording. I can even accept the current trimmed version. I am merely against completely keeping the allegations out of the article. As for the general issue of BLP, as I understand it, the purpose of these policies was to prevent personal attacks, claims that concern the privacy of the described person or unsourced nonsensical allegations from being made in articles about living persons—such as in the Seigenthaler case. It was certainly not meant to prevent relevant criticism from being described. (At least where such criticism is directed at the public work of the person, rather than e.g. the person itself or the private life of the person.) Even if this criticism is harsh and its description in effect discredits the work of the person to some degree. I agree that we must always be very careful in such cases, though. --rtc (talk) 23:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you are right about the main purpose of BLP. But there is also a secondary purpose of preventing legal liability of the Wikimedia Foundation (under Californian law). And the problem that we can't include relatively obvious claims because someone doubts them or doesn't like them and we have no reliable sources is not restricted to BLP. The BLP people try to make the rules of what is allowed and what isn't as clear as possible, and to prevent problems it's necessary to make them a little stricter than what is legally necessary, and to enforce that strict interpretation. --Hans Adler (talk) 08:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
There was certainly a problem with the previous situation (from before the Seigenthaler incident), but we must be careful not to fall into the other extreme now. Making things "a little stricter than what is legally necessary" is not only reasonable, but necessary concerning encyclopedic standards; on the other hand, it can easily lead to inappropriate self-censorship if applied too dogmatically, and that is certainly not desirable. this version was clearly self-censorship. BTW, I am not insisting on mentioning the "bullschildt" thing. Given that the section is so short now, mentioning it seems to give it undue weight. The other criticism has higher priority; I'd opt for Feather's criticism that The Annotated ANSI C Standard has the same problem as the other book being described instead. --rtc (talk) 20:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
There comes a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, the people who own it, that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all. - Mario Savio
A criticism section will violate wikipedia's policies in two ways: it will violate wikipedia's policies concerning biographies of living persons, and it will be original research.
Clive Feather's disorganized laundry list of attacks on Herb itself contains errors, and was unprofessional and uncollegial, since professionals create new knowledge. They do not try to destroy existing texts and their authors in a personal campaign which makes Herb, a good mentor by their own admission, a one-stop, *sui generis* source of "errors"...merely because Herb, like most C programmers, was working on the unfashionable microsoft platform.
The quiet discussion above makes me sick. That's because you're not concerned in the slightest with NPOV. Masquerading as editors, you're trying, again, to destroy a person anonymously using wikipedia's definition of reality.
In 1966, Mario Savio was talking about a cold war system. This system has become distributed processing in which people without collegiality and without solidarity, who are afraid on the job and in their intimate relations to speak truth to power or truth itself, get their rocks off by harming hard-working people who can't fight back, from Herb Schildt to Kathy Sierra. In so doing, they ensure the private fortunes of the nomenklatura who must be obeyed.
Edward G. Nilges, author, "Build Your Own .Net Language and Compiler" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.133.155 (talk) 15:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
"No original research" means that wikipedia editors may not put their own research into an article, it does not mean that you may censor properly attributed criticism because you don't like it. --rtc (talk) 06:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with that statement. "Original research" is mainly a euphemism for "non-notable personal beliefs". The purpose of the "no original research" rule is to make it impossible, to give a concrete example, that a single editor who believes in his own personal conspiracy theory that nobody else is interested in can advertise it on Wikipedia. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
PS: I am not sure about the precise status of Spinoza1111: banned or just blocked. If he is banned we should probably revert his comments rather than reply to them. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed comments by blocked editor

I removed 15 KB of text by blocked editor User:Spinoza1111. If the edit warring by this blocked editor continues, I will post at WP:AN for help. --Hans Adler (talk) 17:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

You can call me names if you like, but anytime I use an open IP address, I am NOT "blocked".
The article was created to destroy Schildt. My editor at Apress started a company and has written many computer books, but no article exists for him. Therefore, the article was created without due diligence to see if computer authors, unmentioned and uncited in the media or the scholarly press, should have wikipedia pages. To demonstrate this I shall create a page for myself if it's possible from an anonymous IP address.
This matter has gone to BLP. Until it is properly resolve, stop vandalizing the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.232.185 (talk) 06:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I invoke Godwin's law. [1] --Hans Adler (talk) 12:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
You can't "invoke" it. It's merely a description: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Mike didn't have the imagination to realize that the probability approaches unity because electronic networks attract people with authoritarian, and pre-Fascist, personalities.
I was of course referring to the following passage:
For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law.
--Hans Adler (talk) 11:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record this user has also caused major problems at Talk:Ayn Rand, and has repeatedly insulted other users, to the point of threatening legal action against me. My advice is to delete any comments he posts, as he has proven himself incapable of remaining civil. TallNapoleon (talk) 05:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, I contributed a major analysis of the Rand-philosopher issue which was recommended as a journal article by other editors, and a rewrite that is supported by neutral editors. For the record, you've repeatedly censored me and then taken my core ideas and many of my observations without crediting me. For th record, there is a growing amount of protest against the way I and people like me are treated on wikipedia, in censorship without discussion. For the record, your malicious damage to reputation, like that to Herb's, is a very serious matter. Finally, and for the record, a legal threat isn't incivil, because the civil law defines what it is to be civil.
Edward G. Nilges

I got advice from this AN thread. The important points for me are:

  • Since User:Spinoza1111 is indefinitely blocked, if he edits using an IP, that represents block evasion, and the IP can be blocked without further ado.
  • Nilges' claim that we have to listen to him since he is not banned doesn't make sense; I believe that editors on each talk page can agree to remove Nilges' comments.

This means that it makes sense to start discussing how we can improve the article, because we can just remove Nilges' unconstructive contributions. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Making the article balanced

In its present state the article is severely misleading about the quality of some of Schildt's books; there must be a way to discuss the technical errors without making it too conspicuous. If we can't do this I am also open to deleting this article altogether. Here is what we have so far:

  • A slating review of "C: The Complete Reference" by the expert Peter Seebach. The only negative statement about the author, as opposed to the book, is the following one: "Herbert Schildt has a knack for clear, readable text, describing a language subtly but quite definitely different from C." The review is self-published, but taken strictly as a book review it must be acceptable even for a BLP page. I believe there is precedent from BLP pages related to fringe science, where there is a similar problem: Too obviously bad science is generally not discussed in the serious scientific literature, and discussion on a reputable expert's blog is often the best we can get. So long as it is about the fringe science, not the fringe scientist, it's acceptable. [2]
  • A slating review of "The Annotated ANSI C Standard" by the expert Clive Feather. I counted three negative statements about the author, each expressing indignation about specific details of the book. The same arguments as for the previous reference apply. [3]
  • A paragraph in the comp.lang.c FAQ. [4] Technically this is not self-published, since it was printed by Addison-Wesley, in a book edited by Steve Summit. The paragraph consists mainly of guarded statements ("It has been suggested", "Many people on the net recommend"). But it can serve to corroborate the review of the book (which it cites, giving it the unusual status of a web page cited in a printed book), and especially the statement that the book contains numerous errors and omissions, including a few pages of the standard itself.

It would be a good thing if someone could find a review of one of his books in a source like the ACM Communications; it would also be good if we could counterbalance the negative reviews with more positive reviews by other experts. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

In asking for positive reviews of Schildt books by experts, you ask for a contradiction. Open any Schildt C book at random, and you are likely to find at least one error - not typos and stuff, but real misunderstandings about the language - and quite possibly several such errors. If you fail to mention the very real concerns that C experts have had over Schildt's books for many years, you have effectively kissed goodbye to NPOV. The concerns exist. The bugs exist. Those facts are indisputable, and the Wiki page used to report them, but now it doesn't. Since when was Wikipedia interested in concealing facts? Do a little research, and you'll find that this whole issue arose out of ignorant Usenet ramblings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.130.170 (talk) 07:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I'd prefer if this whole Usenet war stay on Usenet. I stumbled across a userfied version of the old article, and as much as it pains me to admit it, Edward was right--the weight given to criticism was entirely undue. Since you seem knowledgeable on the topic, could you point us in the direction of some reviews by experts of Schildt's work, published by a good source? Neither I nor Hans (so far as I know), are experts on Schildt's work--if you are familiar with it, any help would be most welcome. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Addendum--that's not to say there shouldn't be a criticism section. However, it should be proportional to the size of the rest of the article. Given how short the article is, the criticism section should be correspondingly short, per WP:UNDUE. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Which version are you referring to when you say that "the weight given to criticism was entirely undue"? The version currently under dispute? (which is http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Schildt&oldid=211665225) --rtc (talk) 17:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Scott1329m/Herbert_Schildt. TallNapoleon (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not see that anyone advocates this version. Please let's disucss actual problems, such as the question whether http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Schildt&oldid=211665225 is sufficiently neutral, and, if not, how it can be changed to be neutral. --rtc (talk) 20:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I'd prefer if this whole Usenet war just vanished completely. As for expert reviews, the two obvious ones (which are both written by voting ISO C committee members and acknowledged experts on the subject), are Web-published. I'm guessing that this doesn't count for some reason, although I'm at a loss to know why - a great many Wikipedia references are URLs, after all. You won't find expertly-sourced Schildt crits in print for the simple and obvious reason that there's no earthly point in printing such crits - publishers want to sell books, and while there may well be people sad enough to spend good money on a book entitled "A critical review of Herbert Schildt's programming books", there surely aren't enough such people that the publisher will be confident of turning a profit. So either you accept the opinion of genuine experts on the subject (even though those views are published on the fickle, fly-by-night World Wide Web) or you reject that opinion on the grounds that Web pages aren't authoritative - in which case the Wikipedia (which is a collection of Web pages) isn't authoritative, in which case it doesn't matter whether its references are authoritative or not, in which case you might just as well accept Web-published expert opinion anyway! (Ain't logic wonderful?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.130.170 (talk) 10:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Web sources can be authoritative, especially if they come from experts. What I was thinking would be really good would be a critical review published in a technical magazine, online or in print. TallNapoleon (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)