Talk:Henry VII of England

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[edit] His death

I added in that Henry VII had died of leprosy and epilepsy and gave the crown to his son (which is true, according to the book "The Story of the Renaissance," by Suzanne Strauss Art), but what I had said was erased. That is a very important thing to know, and I was wronged for telling the truth.

  • You've been on a vandalization streak for quite some time. Cite a source if you are adding real info. Check out your anonymous Usertalk page for info about your impending block.

Vandalization streak? What? What is my anonymous? How do I cite a source, and I have not been vandalizing for quite some time.


I think the sufferer of leprosy was Henry VII of GERMANY. See Wikipedia page on him.

Also it says his successor was henry viii. even though edward was never coronated he is still recognised as king and it is believed he played an active role in ruling even thiugh he waas a minor

Er sorry? Edward (VI was the son of Henry VIII)

That's right, 79.64.92.117. The previous anon left out a king.  — AnnaKucsma  Speak! 16:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earl of Richmond

As Henry Tudor's father was attainted in 1455 or 1456, the title reverted to the Crown. The only person entitled to call himself Earl of Richmond at Bosworth was Richard III. Avalon 04:30 30 July 2005 (UTC)

How about "From his father, he inherited a claim to the title Earl of Richmond", plus your info?

That's fine by me. Avalon 11:04, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rise to the Throne

In the Rise to the throne section, while what is said about pretenders is strictly true, it gives the impression that a pretender is pretending in the sense of feigning. A pretender is a claimant, more or less legitimate. It is not a question of pretence in the sense of make believe. The medieval courtly language was French. In this context, the french meaning has entered into English. Prétendre means to claim, maintain, assert, say. Collins Robert Dictionary. (RJP 5 July 2005 21:49 (UTC))

Also described as "pretenders to the throne" are a few people who try, falsely, to pass themselves off as a claimant. For instance, there were a number of people who tried to claim that they were one or the other of the Princes in the Tower — who were essentially deposed by Richard III. Such claims were only possible because said princes were only assumed to have been killed: there was pretty good reason to believe that they had been, but nobody had found their bodies. Usually, these "claimants" — the most notable example being Perkin Warbeck (I think, but I don't think I spelled that right) — were sorted out and announced to be frauds.  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 20:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC); edited for spelling, 15:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It can be argued that the only meaningful pretenders were that of lambert simnel and Warbeck who both at some staged claimed to be Edward (prince in the tower) thus they were fiegning being a claimant

Lambert Simnel was put forward as Edward, Earl of Warwick (son of George Duke of Clarence and nephew of Edward IV and Richard III) and Perkin Warbeck claimed to be Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York, and the younger of the Princes in the Tower. There was never a serious pretender claiming to be Edward V, which leads to a belief that Edward was known to be dead whereas the fate of hos brother was uncertain. One possibility is that Edward V was sufficiently mature and well-known when he was last seen to be difficult to find a lookalike, whereas Edward of Warwick and Richard of Shrewsbury were less well-known and in the case of the latter would have changed sufficiently when growing to maturity for a pretender to look convincing. RGCorris (talk) 12:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Insidious"

Isn't that a bit biased for an encyclopedia entry?

How about “.... the Tudor dynasty and has a reputation as one of England's most insidious kings."? To say otherwise would be biased in his favour. To say nothing on the subject would be uninformative. The only other way out would be to attempt to find synonyms for 'insidious', which would by clumsy. (RJP 09:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC))

I second changing 'generally acknowledged as' to 'has a reputation as'; there manifestly is not a consensus here. Js229 17:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Reporting on someone's reputation is not biased. Henry VII has the reputation of being insidious. To ignore it is to mis-represent him. Avalon 19:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with RJP and Js229 because it shows that people are in his favor and could create a controversy. Bubbles 21:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancestry?

Shouldn't there be more of his ancestry? His parentage should at least be mentioned, and something about how he is descended from the Welsh nobility. Wasn't there a mediaeval Welsh family called Tewdwr? Yes, here Rhys ap Tewdwr, could they by any chance be related? I always think of Henry VII as Welsh (Hari Tudur in Welsh [1]), but I went to a Welsh school, so there may have been some exageration there, should it be mentioned?Alun 12:15, 21 September 2005 (==UTC)

Surnames were not used in Wales in medieval times - each person was the son (ap) of his father, eg Llewellyn ap Gruffydd ap Llewellyn. Tudor (however you spell it) was a given (Christian) name so there is no more reason for someone called ap Tewdr to be related to Henry VII than someone called ap Edmund or Edmundson. RGCorris (talk) 12:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Military Intentions?

Although I'm not goign to pretend to eb an expert on HVII, I attended a history conference on his reign in London, where a credited historian mentioned that in a peace treaty or trade agreement Henry laid claim to French territory or stated some inclination for England to try and sieze Boulogne towards the end of his reign, I can't remember the details but this goes against what is stated on the page about Henry's intentions.


And your source would be absolutely right.  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 18:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Henry VII's Siblings

Where does it say anything about Henry VII's siblings? I think I'll research that and add it.

Don't knock yourself out, Anonymous. Henry VII was an only child. His father (Edmund Tudor) died before he was born, and though his mother (Margaret Beaufort) remarried, she did not have any more children. I think Alison Weir's Wars of the Roses had something about this, as did another book I read more recently (can't remember which one).  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 18:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII

What sort of social rank would one have to bear in their family, in order to be a descendent of either?

How far up the totem pole, would you say?

This is intended to have broad answers and based on gradients of time and population, not going into specifics about exact descendents. About how common is their descent in the English or British genepool today?

I've noticed that American Presidents don't descend from either king, but the most common recent royal ancestor shared by many of us is Edward III. How common is it for anybody in the English or British genepool, to have a Protestant royal ancestor?

There is a general cutoff, isn't there?

Is it because of fratricide in the Wars of the Roses, the Tudors' "new men", or the Union of the Crowns, or the parliamentary union under Queen Anne (I can't think of any non-royal family descent from the Hanoverians within the UK)?

I'm thinking that there is a big difference between Plantagenet and Tudor descents, that the commons in all likelihood have the former and the latter is held by the lords. (just generally speaking) Then again, Tudor descent in the Welsh must be higher in general. I am further curious about pre-Royal Tudor blood in Anglo-British people today, since the status and/or concept of Welsh royalty/nobility is rather hazy in my mind. I found the Blevins aka Ap Bleddyn family of Powys in my ancestry, but have no real idea on what to make of it--or any other Welsh "native aristocracy". I might be able to find Stewart descent somewhere, from way back when. What percentage of Hanoverian background do you think that German colonists had in America?

On the British side, I have to go as far back as Welf himself...but any recent genetic relationship with the Hanoverians or the counts of Nassau are completely obscure. How does one research those other colonial people, such as the Hessians?

UK genealogy is relatively easy when focusing on English (and French) ancestries. What would a "national person" of Jerusalem (or Antioch, for example) in Crusader times be known as?

We say "American" for those Founders, but was there such a nationality-term for the Crusaders in their own domains?

I guess the term is supposed to be Levantine/Outremer, or "Crusader" as our national heritage says "Colonist"...

IP Address 11:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repetitive information

English Royalty
House of Tudor

Royal Coat of Arms
Henry VII
   Arthur, Prince of Wales
   Margaret, Queen of Scots
   Henry VIII
   Elizabeth Tudor
   Mary, Queen of France
   Edmund, Duke of Somerset
   Katherine Tudor

I have taken the above out as apart from the arms, which is not particularly Tudor, it repeats information already and more appropriately given in the info box. (RJP 23:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Re: Vandalism

The article was in a vandalised state when I stumbled across it, yet the current revision is said to be the reverted one of SteveO. However it is the vandalised revision that is showing. I am too ignorant of wikipedia to understand why this is the case. 86.138.137.123 14:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I fixed some vandalism. Random stuff about Runescape. 24.218.131.28 04:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I helped to fix some more recent vandalism. Apparently, people have too much time on their hands. Virgosky 17:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sir Roland de Velville

Does anyone know of anymore sources that discuss this illegimate child of Henry VII. It was mentioned in a previous discussion and one of the editors added it in. I have found a few sources but does anyone know of any more? Thanks. RosePlantagenet 14:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The close knit royal circle surrounding Roland de Velville (Vieilleville) believed that he was the son of Henry Tudur, and no one appears ever to have questioned that. Roland spent twenty five years at Court, much of it as a member of the the household of Henry VII (note: he certainly was not a royal servant, and held no official post in the household. He mixed on equal terms with the members of the royal family). He was never publically acknowledged to be Henry's son, but there are quite obvious reasons why this was so and he certainly was treated with respect as such. His coat of arms provides the clues, and he possibly was not a 'bastard'.

Sir Roland de Velville was Constable of Beaumaris Castle from 1509 until his death in 1535. Beaumaris in this period was his home and the place where he died, in the heartland of the Tudur family homelands. North Wales is the place where he is best remembered, and where letters and documents have survived. I give below several references, but there are many more.

Kalendars of Gwynedd, ed. Edward Breese (1873), 122. Materials for the reign of Henry VII, ed. W. Campbell (Rolls Ser., 1877), II, 394. Letters and Papers, Richard III and Henry VII, ed. J. Gairdner (Rolls Ser., 1861), I, 395, 397-400. C.P.R., 11 Henry VII, part I, 47 (28 May 1496). C.C.R., 12 Henry VII (20 April 1497). L.& P., Foreign & Domestic, Henry Vlll, I, part I (1920), 158 (9), 707. 1524 (7) (23 March 1512). Calendar of Wynn (of Gwydir) Papers, 1515-1690 (1926), p. 259. 18. V. generally. E. A. Lewis. The Mediaeval Boroughs of Snowdonia (1912), pp. 111, 215, 217, and L. & P. Henry VIII. II, part 2, 3741 (ii); III, part I, 1000, 1025; IV, 3087. 'Sir Roland late deceased'. Cf. 'Extracts from Old Wills relating to Wales', in Arch. Camb., IX, 4th ser. (1878), 149.

National Library of Wales (NLW), Lleweni Papers 124, calendared in W. J. Smith (ed.), Calendar of Salusbury Correspondence 1559 – circa 1700 (Cardiff, 1954), no. l86. John Salusbury (d. l685) was the son of Roger Salusbury (d. l623) of Bachegraig (ibid., Table III), whose brother, John Salusbury (d. 1566), married Katheryn of Berain (ibid., Table I, Sheet B). For Katheryn of Berain, the daughter of Velville's daughter, Jane, and Thomas ap Robert of Berain, see The Dictionary of Welsh Biography down to l940 (London, 1959), p. 531. An illegitimate son of Sir John Salusbury (d. 16l2) of Lleweni, a son of Katheryn of Berain by her first marriage, was named Velivel Salusbury (Smith, Calendar of Salusbury Correspondence, Table I, Sheet B). Public Record Office (PRO), SC6/Henry VIII/5418, fees section.

Letters and Papers, Richard III and Henry VII (Rolls Series, 1861), vol. I, pp. 395, 397-400. The Account Books of John Heron, Treasurer of the Chamber', Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, vol. 43 (l960), p. 36. The Great Tournament Roll of Westminster (Oxford, l968), p. 36, n. l; A. H. Thomas and I. D. Thornley (eds.), The Great Chronicle of London (London, l938), pp. 314-15. J. Leland, Collectanea (London, l774), vol. iv, p. 263. G. Kipling, 'The Queen of May's Joust at Kennington and the Justes of the Moneths of May and June', Notes and Queries, CCXXIX (June, 1984), 158-62 (I am indebted to Professor Sydney Anglo for this reference); A. Young, Tudor and Jacobean Tournaments (London, l987), p. 145. A. R. Wagner, Heralds and Heraldry in the Middle Ages (2nd. ed., Oxford, 1960), pp. 79-80. Buckingham was on sufficiently familiar terms with Velville to borrow money from him; in 1520 he owed Veleville £l00. Letters and Papers, Henry VIII, vol. III, pt. I, no. 1285 (5, 27, 31). PRO, E404/85/I/35, annuity granted l2 March, E404185/2/24; Cal. Patent Rolls, Henry VII, vol II, p. 47, PRO, C82/148. The annuity of 1493 was to be paid by the Exchequer, that of 1496 by the sheriff of Wiltshire. British Library (BL), Stowe 440, f. 79, PRO, E36/285, f. 44. The earliest reference to Velville appears to be that recording a grant to 'Roland de Vielle' in Michaelmas term 1488: W. Campbell (ed.), Materials for the Reign of Henry VII (2 vols., Rolls Series, 1873-77), vol. II, p. 394. Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII (22 vols., 1862-l932) (hereafter L. & P. Henry VIII), vol. I, pt. i, no. 20. PRO, SC6/Henry VIII/54I8, fees section, which records the texts of the letters patent and of the warrants of 29 October and 6 December 1509. L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt. 1, no. 158 (9). Payment was to be at the Exchequer at Easter and Michaelmas by equal portions (PRO, C83/338). L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. III, pt. 1, no. 1000, records payment of annuity in 1520. L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt, ii no. 2480 (30); PRO, E101/56/25, f. 43v. Velville's signature, 'Rolant', appears against the sum of 105s. paid to him as conduct money. BL, Additional MS. 45,131, f. 174. PRO, C82/586. PRO, E36/l30, f. 201v. PRO, SC 6/Henry VIII/5422, fees and respites sections. The text of the letters patent is recorded in the chamberlain's account for the year ending Michaelmas 1516: PRO, SC6/Henry VIII/5424, fees section. The chamberlain's account for the year ending Michaelmas 1516 records the payment to Veleville of £14 10s. 0d., this being the portion of Veleville's fee of forty marks due in respect of the period from the date of his letters patent of 6 March 1515 until the following Michaelmas, i.e. a half-year and sixteen days. The sum of £12 2s. 8½d., the balance (less 7½d) of the fee due in respect of the period from Michaelmas 1515 to 5 March 1516, was recorded in the account as being 'in respite', but an entry in the 'respites' section of the account for the following year records that this payment was to be excused (PRO, SC6/Henry VIII/5426). Payments made by the chamberlain of north Wales. Chamberlain's accounts in PRO, SC6/Henry VIII. Total fees and wages for the year ending Michaelmas 1509, £l75 3s. 4d. (No. 5418); for the following year no account survives and for the year ending Michaelmas 1511 the surviving account (No. 5419) gives no details of fees, but for each year the (total is assumed to be £350 5s. 0d., as in the years ending Michaelmas 1512 (No. 5420) and the two following years (PRO, LRI2/21/662); total for the year ending Michaelmas 1515, £350 5s. 0d. (No. 5422), including the sum of £175 2s. 6d. for the latter half of the year authorised in the following year; total for the year ending Michaelmas 1516, £200 (No. 5424, ignoring a possible underpayment of 7½d. for his fee); totals for the following eighteen years, 1517 to 1534 inclusive, £200 (Nos. 5426-30, 5433-36, 544l, 5444, 5447, 5450, 5453, 5455, 5457, 5460); total for the half-year ending Easter 1535, £100 (No. 5461). Angharad Llwyd stated that Henry VII bestowed upon Velville a moiety of the Penmynydd estate, consisting of 486 acres (op. cit, p. 333); for other references to Henry VIII granting Veleville lands forming part of the Tudor estate of Penmynydd, see J. Williams, 'Penmynydd and the Tudors', Archaeologia Cambrensis, 3rd. series, XV (1869), 402; J. Ballinger, 'Katheryn of Berain', Y Cymmrodor, XL (1929), 2; and R. A. Griffiths and R. S. Thomas, op. cit., p. 192.. Velville's grant of denization, see L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt. 1, no. 1524 (7). The terms of the grants by which constables of the royal castles in the principality of north Wales in the last year of Henry VII's reign held their offices are summarised in the account of the chamberlain for the year ending Michaelmas 1508, PRO, SC6/Henry VII/160l, fees section In a letter of 26 June 1535, Sir Richard Bulkeley stated that Veleville had murdered a man in the Lord Cardinal's (i.e. Wolsey's) time and had forfeited all his goods, but no indication of the date of the alleged murder is cited: L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. VII, no. 889; Historical Manuscripts Commission, no. 58: Report on the Manuscripts of the Marquess of Bath, vol. IV, Seymour Papers, 1532-l686 (HMSO, 1968), p. 97. In the early years of Henry VIII's reign, Velville is mentioned as holding musters at Beaumaris, and there are references to gunpowder being delivered to him for Beaumaris (PRO, Star Chamber 217, f. 26v; L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt. ii, nos. 2834, 3222). P. C. Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies, A.D. 1400-1500 (Aberystwyth, 1983), vol. VIII, p. 1265; Lewys Dwnn, Heraldic Visitations of Wales, ed. S. R. Meyrick (2 vols., Llandovery, 1846), vol. II, p. 131, n. 4; J. E. Griffith, Pedigrees of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire (Horncastle, 1914), pp. 26, 223. For the family of Griffith of Penrhyn, see Dictionary of Welsh Biography, pp. 1123-26 PRO, Star Chamber 2/7, f. 28; Star Chamber 2/4, f. 5. The Plea Rolls of Anglesey (1518-1516) (Anglesey Antiquarian Society and Field Club, 1927), p. 54, no. 134. NLW, Lleweni collection, No. 222. In deeds dated 20 June and 31 July 1526. Veleville and Agnes Griffith (not referred to as his wife) granted and quitclaimed two shops in Beaumaris that were stated to be in the tenure and occupation of Agnes and one Peter Barbour (University College of North Wales, Bangor. Baron Hill Collection, Nos. 552-53). The settlement made by Veleville before the marriage of his daughter Jane was dated 5 June 1531 (NLW, Lleweni Collection, No. 370 Velville's annuity of forty marks, granted in 1496, was still being paid in 1520 (L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. III, pt. 1. no. 1000). The total of £1,2l6 13s. 4d. is based on the assumption that this annuity, and that of £20, originally granted in 1493, continued to be paid until his death, his payments from both annuities totalling £46 13s. 4d. in the twenty-six years, 1509-1534, and £23 6s. 6d. in 1535. In a letter date 26 June written in 1535 by Sir Richard Bulkeley to Henry Norris (executed l7 May 1536), Velville's successor as constable of Beaumaris castle, Bulkeley claimed that on taking possession of the castle from Velville's widow and her son-in-law, William ap Robert, he never saw a house so ill kept, as there was scarcely a chamber in which a man might lie dry (L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. VII, no. 889). NLW, Lleweni collection, Nos. 230, 209, 22l, 257(i), 222 (grant by Agnes Griffith University College of North Wales, Bangor, Baron Hill Collection Nos. 552-53, for which see above, p. 364, n. 61. NLW, Lleweni Collection, no. 370. Will dated 6 June 1535, proved on l3 June 1535 at Llanallgo, Anglesey (NLW, Kinmel Deeds, No. 53). In the will (Latin) Sir Rowland Velville describes himself as a knight for the king's body and constable of the castle of Beaumaris; it is dated 'in my place of habitation in the aforesaid castle' In his will, Sir Roland directed that he should be buried in the monastery of the Friars Minor of Llanfaes, the Franciscan house about a mile to the north of Beaumaris. Llanfaes was the burial place of Goronwy ap Tudor (d. 1382), one of the ancestors of the Tudors. Sir Rowland died at Beaumaris in 1535. Dame Agnes, his widow, made her will on 16 December 1542, and directed that she be buried in the chapel of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Beaumaris where her husband was buried, and she bequeathed £4 for the repair and building of the chapel and a further £4 for a priest to sing for a whole year for the health of her husband's soul and her own "...gwr o lin brenhinoedd ag o waed ieirll i gyd oedd," “A man of kingly line and of earl’s blood.” Extract from an elegy to Sir Roland de Velville by Dafydd Alaw composed shortly after his death in 1535. The earl’s blood referred to Edmund Tudor, earl of Richmond (died 1456) BrynLlywelyn 18:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This is very interesting and detailed, yet seems to be original research, so should not be used to inform the article. As far as I'm aware, I have every book published on Henry VII, but cannot find a reference for a historian believing this to be the case, I can only find it in a book of royal scandals, which isn't referenced and is full of errors. Unless it has been suggested in academic works, I don't think it should be in the article. What do others think? Can anyone back the siggestion up without original research?Boleyn (talk) 16:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Murder of the Princes: Do We Really Need This?

Does the little blurb about Henry VII possibly being involved in the murders really belong here? It's practically pointless and out of place. I also think it was added simply as a subtle form of vandalism by modern-day Richard III supporters.

Not only is it pointless it is bollocks- Henry was in France in exile when they were murdered (for which there is a 99% consensus that Richard did it) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.231.41 (talk) 15:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

If you have definite information on when, or even if, the Princes were murdered, please share it. Likewise any confirmation of your claim for 99% consensus. Serious historians admit that there is no proof of their fate and in the absence of same avoid dogmatic statements blaming anyone for their presumed deaths. RGCorris (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First language

I am led to believe that because of both his nationality and the spelling of his surname in previous generations, Henry VII may have spoken Welsh as his first language and English was always a second language to him. It is difficult to tell for such figures in the pre-modern era, but for figures such as Napoleon Bonaparte (born Napoleone di Buonaparte) it is comparably easier. Any ideas on the contrary or otherwise? RJL (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Given that Henry was born after his father's death, had an English mother, and spent much of his youth in France, it is unlikely that he spoke Welsh as a first language. Do you have any proof that he spoke it at all ? RGCorris (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weird

Henry VII was the older brother of Richard, Duke of York. Richard was smuggled and tooken to Flanders, under the name Perkin Warbeck. Warbeck had a rebellion which made him get executed by his older brother. Weird, isn't it? 78.149.73.48 (talk) 07:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)