Talk:Henry St John, 1st Viscount Bolingbroke

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This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.
This article incorporates public domain text from: Cousin, John William (1910). A Short Biographical Dictionary of English Literature. London, J.M. Dent & sons; New York, E.P. Dutton.
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Contents

[edit] POV

This article suffers from some of the same problems as that for Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford and Mortimer, being written from a strongly Whiggish POV and thus deprecating Tory politicians like St John.

[edit] Title

Wouldn't Henry St John (or Henry St. John) be sufficient for a title? -- Zoe

Bolingbroke is a common name used for him. Susan Mason

I agree. I would know him as Bolingbroke rather than Henry St. John, however he should be in as St. John rather than St John, which is not how it is normally written. STÓD/ÉÍRE


Are you sure you are ok Jtdirl/Zoe? Susan Mason

So then why not Viscount Bolingbroke? -- Zoe

Naming conventions, my dear Zoe, naming conventions. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:03 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

But naming conventions call for there not to be personal titles in article titles. -- Zoe

Not for a long time. The formula used for ages now is {name), {ordinal if known or needed} {title}. This is named exactly as agreed in a discussion ages ago, which is:

  1. Members of the hereditary nobility' (ie, people who inherit their title), such as a marquess, viscount, count, duke. earl, etc., as with royals have two names. For example Henry John Temple was also the 3rd Viscount Palmerston, hence typically referred to as "Lord Palmerston". Naming the article Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston, with redirect Lord Palmerston allows both of his names to be included. The sequence number is included since personal names are often duplicated (see Earl of Aberdeen.)

STÓD/ÉÍRE

On the other hand, the titles are supposed to be something which a user would commonly write within text, and "Henry St John, Viscount Bolingbroke, was known for being a Viscount" is not exactly a good sentence. Susan Mason

But that wasn't what he was known for... Deb 17:26 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

The point is that the title of this article should be changed. Stop being hypercritical, its a waste. Susan Mason

No it shouldn't. It is following the naming conventions, Adam, so it stays here. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:39 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

My name isn't Adam, Zoe. Susan Mason

Whatever, Lir/Vera/Susan/Dietary. BTW the naming convention was agreed because people with titles are often known to some people by name, some people by title and others by a mixture of both. STÓD/ÉÍRE 22:25 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Lansdowne

I thought that no one was called that until in 1784.--Anglius 02:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Regarding "...In Britain the name St John is pronounced Sinj'n ..."; my understanding is that it is pronounced "sinj'n" in the case of a middle name or hyphenation, as in the James Bond movie where Rodger Moore uses the pseudonym "St.John-Smythe", but that it's "Saint John", same as in the States, when just a surname. Any Brit care to confirm? Thanks. Pete St.John 16:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tories were the Country Party? I thought that was the Whigs!

The introduction says that Bolingbroke was 'an intellectual leader of the "Country" party, attacking the corruption of the "Court party,"'. Later the article says he was a Tory (which aligns with my understanding of the matter). But the Whig article says this: 'The Whigs were originally also known as the "Country Party" (as opposed to the Tories, the "Court Party").'

Only one can be correct, and since Wikipedia shouldn't cite itself, I don't know which is correct. Maybe someone could sort this out? --Sapphire Wyvern 05:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Court and Country are terms better left to the earlier 17th century, before the party labels of "Whig" and "Tory" were created. "Court" generally referred to the interests associated with the King, "Country" with those of the aristocratic landed interests -- but by the 18th century these interests were no longer so distinct, and the Tories (the former "Court" party) were deeply distrusted by the actual royal court. Bolingbroke was, however, a leader of the Tory opposition, not the "Country" party (which no longer existed as such); and it's a little strange (at least without some supporting quotes) to see him portrayed as an apostle of liberty, or that the author of the Patriot King (from whom George III imbibed his ideas of kingship) should be thought of as an inspiration (other than negatively) for the American Revolution.RandomCritic 16:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)