Talk:Henry Darger

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Henry Darger was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: May 5, 2007

The recent anonymous additions by User:141.150.141.251 mostly fit in with what I know about Darger, although some of this is news to me. I'd sure appreciate citation of sources: this is getting pretty circumstantial on claims that may be difficult to substtantiate (e.g. the stated reason he abstained from sex with women). -- Jmabel | Talk 06:32, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

I added a couple of online citations... I recognize all of the anonymous user's claims as coming from the one John MacGregor monograph listed in the "further reading" section, so I'll see if I can get the actual page numbers on those any time soon. Until then, I just linked to an online review of the book which repeats the claims.

And the above comment was me. Philthecow 18:45, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

this is a random question, , but it's driving me crazy- ok, so everywhere i look, it says that since 2000, there's a big exhibit on his work in the american folk art museum or something like that... but I can't find a whisper of where it may have been displayed *before* that..which seems like a pointless thing to be wondering about, and it is, but I saw his work in a museum somewhere, and I can't remember where it was, and it's driving me nuts. I am fairly sure it was when I was in chicago, which was the summer of 1998, but if that wasn't it, it would have been no later than 1998. Any ideas? - novium

He was at the Chicago Public Library in April and May of 1998--that's the best guess I have. Philthecow 20:19, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I remember going to a Darger show in Chicago around that time. It wasn't a museum, though, it was a gallery. Can't remember which one, though, sorry. Somewhere I still have the flyer, though--if I find it, I'll post. --Chowbok 02:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sandman

In the section Darger in Popular Culture: is there a real reason to mention Gaiman's Sandman, or is this just trivia? Darger is not mentioned in the Sandman article. The rest of the list is works inspired by or seriously influenced by Darger. If no one can explain a reason this is not trivia (or at least give some specifics, like what issues, whether the drawings were actually influenced by Darger or his name is just alluded to, etc.), I'm inclined to remove it. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

  • It's just trivia, really. I had mentioned it at first because Gaiman fans always tell me excitedly that there's a character who's an homage to Darger. But you're right, it doesn't fit in with the section as is. Feel free to delete it, but if I can dig up more specifics to make it not-so-trivial more specifics there will be. Philthecow
I'd like to know which one. I've read nearly all the Sandman books and I still have no idea who this Darger-like guy is supposed to be. The one thing I did notice was the use (in the story where Dr. Dee goes to a coffee shop and drives everyone insane) of a photograph that originally ran in Life magazine. Known as the "Despondent Divorcee" or the "Genesee Hotel Suicide", this was actually (and accidentally) snapped from across the street by somebody who was just trying to get a shot of the hotel's front and coffee shop. I have always been impressed by Gaiman's use of that photograph (which you can see here http://www.treasurehiding.com/genesee.jpg). --Bluejay Young 22:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The book in question is The Sandman - Endless Nights (ISBN 1-84023-784-8). In a story called Going Inside, an unamed janitor describes his project to 'chronicle the Sky-Boys and their journey through Hells Infinite six thousand pages to date'. There are lots of other similarities as well, including some illustrations that resemble Darger's. 87.81.168.4 17:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Erin F.

[edit] American Folk Art Museum

Here's my question: the American Folk Art Museum is said to have a large collection of his work, however, after making the trip, I was thoroughly disappointed to find only one watercolor piece, one map, and one study of his. Why are they not displaying the rest? Or, Where is it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.121.62.174 (talk • contribs) 21 Nov 2005.

Most art museums have collections vastly exceeding what they have space to display. This is especially the case for an artist like Darger, much of whose work was in the form of books, most of whose work (I believe) used both sides of each sheet of paper, and most of whos work is certainly sitting in an unmounted, unframed state. Probably, if the museum is typical, these pieces are available only to those who contact the museum in advance to arrange to see them, and such access may even be restricted to people with some evidence that they are serious scholars (although some museums are much easier on this count: I've sometimes been able to ask around at a museum and get to see some piece I was interested in without having made an advance arrangement). If you want to know more, you'll probably have to ask them. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Little Annie Rooney

Bonesteel (pp. 30-31) documents the influence of the Little Annie Rooney character (in comic strips and film) on Henry Darger. I suspect that this article's reference to Little Orphan Annie was intended to be to Little Annie Rooney. Dgorsline 00:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure you are correct, and will edit accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 21:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Looks like it's already been done. - Jmabel | Talk 21:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Large Henry Darger display in Pittsburgh

There is a full one floor display of Henry Darger's work in the Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh. I don't know if it's a permanent fixture, but it's there right now 3/30/06. Personally, I find his work very disturbing, particularly the several works in which he depicts an adolescent girl being strangled and with her face bloated and her toungue sticking out. Coincidence? I doubt it. —This unsigned comment was added by Duwahdity (talk • contribs) 31 March 2006.

coincidence of what? Joeyramoney 21:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Presumably he is referring to the speculation that Darger killed a little girl. --Richardrj 09:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Nonsense. Darger says himself in his memoirs that the strangling incidents are based on abuse suffered by inmates of the Lincoln Institution for the Feeble-Minded. A lot of his portrayals of child exploitation and suffering are based on what he went through and witnessed there. Don't forget that he also served in a hospital, and abused children are frequently brought in by their parents with some bulls--t story like "Oh, she fell down the stairs". A lot of people are still in denial about child abuse and the frequency and extremity to which it occurs. Also, there is a tendency in this culture to assume that because an author portrays something as happening, that means he approves of or sanctions it, particularly if he is a peculiar person like ol'Henry (rather than a best-selling author like Stephen King). Okay, I'm done ranting for now. --Bluejay Young 22:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Holdings of Darger's work

There are also holdings of Darger's work at the Musee d'Art Brut in Lausanne, Switzerland. Or at least there were when I was there. I would really like to know where the MS of Vivian Girls is held, though. --Richardrj 09:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tornado and Countrybrown

This sentence bother me: "In 1913 he witnessed the complete destruction of the town of Countrybrown, Illinois by a huge tornado." I can find no online citations of a place called "Countrybrown, Illinois" except in reference to Darger. And I can find no references to particularly damaging tornados in Illinois that year. Is this true or fictional? Rmhermen 15:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I got that from a review of the Darger exhibition in The Nation in something like 1999. I'm not sure where they got it. There are some very small towns in Illinois and Countrybrown may have been one of these little wide spots in the road. Should this be taken out until I can get to a 1913 almanac? --Bluejay Young 22:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I have found a reference to a huge storm system which may have occasioned the tornado Henry speaks of, and which caused the Omaha Easter Sunday Tornado (1913). MacGregor says that Henry dates the tornado as occurring Easter Sunday 1913. I'm sure this is it; that thing did a hell of a lot of damage across the midwest, including in Terre Haute, Indiana, which is right on the Indiana-Illinois border. Many extremely small towns exist in that area -- population 30 or less. Now the next question is what was Darger doing near Terre Haute at that time? (looking for work? visiting relatives?) There is so much we do not know without reading MacGregor's book, and if it's not in there we will have to write to him and ask him. --Bluejay Young 13:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I checked the dates and am now starting to wonder who is confused; MacGregor or myself. If Henry was born in 1892, he would have been heading home from the feeble-minded place in 1909, which is when The New Republic article said his autobiography said he witnessed the tornado. (Never mind the Countrybrown part; I took that out until we can find out where that was. Darger may also have misremembered the name of the town.) If it was the Omaha Easter Sunday storm system, that would have been four years later. I am still tracking this down and will do so if I have to write to MacGregor. --Bluejay Young 22:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elsie Paroubek

I think the famous photo of Elsie should be part of this article. There is, I think, a copy in Bonesteel's book, which I have, and I also screencapped it off of the film on Darger's life last night. Would I contact Kiyoko for permission to use it, I presume it belongs to the rest of the Darger collection even though it's not his original copy? Or do I have to call the Sun-Times? --Bluejay Young 23:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If the photograph was published in the United States prior to 1923 (presumably so, since the girl was murdered in 1911) then it's in the public domain now. -Stellmach 00:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, it's up now. Merry Christmas, Henry. --Bluejay Young 03:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paula Rego

I cut "Much of Portugese artist Paula Rego's early work is inspired by the Vivian Girls." Darger may have been an influence on Rego (in which case, please cite for this) but her "early work" was long before Darger's work was publicly known. - Jmabel | Talk 04:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Darger's exhibition history

taken from Henryjdarger.com there was also an exhibition in Paris this summer and one in Seatle comming up Darger has been in several major Group exhibitions like Paralell Visions which showed Outsider and Contemporary art together, as well as having been in shows by major contemporary art galleries like the Mathew Marks Gallery, Andres Rosen Gallery

EXHIBITIONS

  • Henry Darger
    • The Andy Warhol Museum, Pittsburgh, PA, February 5, - April 30 2006
  • VISIONS REALIZED: The Paintings and Process of Henry Darger
    • Intuit: The Center for Intuitive and Outsider Art, Chicago March 14 - June 1, 2003.
  • Henry Darger: In the Realm of the Unreal
    • Watari-Um Museum of Contemporary Art, November 29, 2002, - April 6, 2003, Tokyo
  • Darger: the Henry Darger Collection
    • The American Folk Art Museum December 11, 2001, - June 23, 2002.
  • Studies and Sketches: Henry Darger,
    • Eva and Morris Feld Gallery, January 21, 2002, - July 14, 2002,
  • Disasters of War
    • Presented by P.S.1. [That's in Long Island City, NY], November 19, 2000, - February 25, 2001.
  • Self-Taught Artists of the 20th Century: An American Anthology
    • Philadelphia Museum of Art, March 10-May 17, 1998
    • High Museum of Art, Atlanta, July 14-October 20, 1998
    • Amon Carter Museum and the Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth, October 31, 1998-January 24, 1999
    • Memorial Art Gallery of the University of Rochester, February 20-April 18, 1999
    • Wexner Center for the Arts, Ohio State University, May 15-August 15, 1999
    • Museum of American Folk Art, New York, September 19-December 11, 1999
  • Henry Darger: The Unreality of Being,
    • The University of Iowa Museum of Art, Ames, January 13, 1996 - March 10, 1996
    • Museum of American Folk Art, New York City, January 18, 1997 - April 27, 1997
    • Center for the Arts at Yerba Buena Gardens, San Francisco, September 20 - November 30, 1997
    • The High Museum of Art, Atlanta, December 13, 1997 - March 7, 1998
  • (unnamed exhibit?)
    • Chicago Public Library Cultural Center, Chicago, April 4 - May 31, 1998
  • The Realms of the Unreal
    • Hyde Park Art Centre, Chicago - 1977

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.235.85.189 (talk • contribs) 4 September 2006.

Formatted by Jmabel | Talk 23:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


The Seattle exhibit you alluded to is already under way:

  • Henry Darger: Highlights from the American Folk Art Museum
    • Frye Art Museum, Seattle, August 19 – October 29, 2006

- Jmabel | Talk 23:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Cleanup tag

The article as it currently stands is full of redundancies, is not well sourced (or the sources are not tied to the information in a way that is readily apparent to a reader), and is somewhat contradictory, so I've added a cleanup tag for now. There is however a good article buried here that I would like to try and unearth.--Isotope23 19:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sequel

Someone asked if Crazy House could be called a sequel in the true sense of the word. Although Darger's full title for the book was Further Adventures in Chicago: Crazy House, I'm not sure he made it clear whether this was supposed to have taken place subsequent to the Glandelinian-Abiennian war or before or during it. I've read that he changed the timing a couple of times in the book. If subsequent, one could call it a sequel in that it involves the Vivians. My guess is that he wanted to write a series of Vivian Girl books, like the Hardy Boys. If so, that's less of a sequel than "the next book in the series". ??? --Bluejay Young 16:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

I've nominated this for GA, hopefully as a first step towards getting this in line for a FA.--Isotope23 13:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

For the primary reason of lack of inline citations, which I always find speed any article to GA. Citing the paragraphs and certain sentences as necessary with line citations will be a great help to this article. I recommend a normal peer review as well. The automatic peer review suggests:

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[edit] Realms of the Unreal/ Vivian Girls

The title of the book starts out The Story of the Vivian Girls in What Is Known as the Realms of the Unreal. However, ever since the 1999 "Unreality of Being" exhibitions and MacGregor's writings, people discussing Henry's work have called it In The Realms of the Unreal. I've always seen the "Realms of the Unreal" part as a subtitle. Is there any evidence that Darger himself called it by that name (like if he wrote about it in his diary, like "I worked on a new illustration for Realms of the Unreal today") or did he call it The Story of the Vivian Girls? The article should refer to the book by the name Darger used. --Bluejay Young 01:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why so little reliable information about Darger

I first learned about Darger from the Yu film documentary which I thought was well researched and a beautiful representation of his art. But besides for this I have been unable to find any other usefull infomation about what seems to be a very interesting if somewhat controversial biographical information about Henry Darger. It appears that upon his death his work was horded by greedy landlords who already had a foot in the art world, which raises questions in its self and seems a little too coincedental. Art dealers just happened to be his landlords, yeah ok. How come none of his works have been slightly edited and published as fiction. How come there are no biographical sources on him besides for a book by John McGregor. McGregor apparently spent 12 years researching Darger, even going as far as to live in his old apartment. But alas, unless I want to fork over upwards of $300 for a 720 biography of Darger than I guess I am shit out of luck. Hopefully Yu's film will require for the reprinting of McGregors book, but until then could you help me out. Where can I find more info about this guy? Sadly I would guess that 2 art collecters have become rich off Darger while for the rest of us he lives only in the realms of our imagination

That's been the problem facing this article as well. I'd love to see this get to featured article status, but I keep running into the fact that there isn't really a whole lot of good verifiable info out there that is easily available, nor is it easy to come by a picture that is usable (though I suspect the one or two known images of him would fall under fair use). There are a couple of websites out there that basically regurgitate sections from McGregor's book. There is a certain irony in the fact that a guy who labored in anonymous solitude most of his life on a project he loved dearly died destitute and is now making several other people rather wealthy... I once inquired into buying some of his artwork; the price I was quoted for the piece I wanted was more than cost of the house I was living in at that time.--Isotope23 16:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I was once told that the reason Vivian Girls would never be published in its entirety in America had to do with its themes of extreme violence against children. I thought that was bogus at the time and still do, considering the fact that bilge like The End of Alice is regarded by the literary intelligencia as a work of staggering genius. Vivian Girls was printed in its entirety in Switzerland in 1998, but apparently we Americans can't be trusted with its contents. As for Lerner being an art appreciator, that may have been a piece of astute choice on the part of fellow art appreciator Darger. We don't know how he ended up in those digs after having lived in ten or twelve other places in the area. Darger was by his own admission a person of sharp wit and observation, and to see him as a naif is a big mistake. --Bluejay Young 21:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lost Girls

An anon added that "Lost Girls", by Tilly and the Wall is a reference to Darger's work as well. I'm not so sure about that. There is a line about "19,000" pages and a "world so unreal", but really it is a bit vague... Anyone have a ref where the band stated that Darger and the Vivian girls were in any way an inspiration for their song?--Isotope23 19:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purple Crimson And Lavender

The lyrics recently added do establish that this band was referring to Darger's work, but those lyrics can't be printed here as they would fall under copyright. Another source needs to be found; perhaps a reference link to an official band website that reprints lyrics? Do the lyrics appear printed in the CD liner notes? That could be used as a reference...--Isotope23 talk 14:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How would one go about...

How would one go about finding a copy of "The Story of the Vivan Girls..." to read? I'm sure some copies must exist somewhere, besides Darger's originals, but how would one obtain a copy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.94.186.187 (talk) 20:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It'll help if you're in Switzerland. The book has been published in its entirety only there. Highly unlikely it'll ever be published in the States, although a book of excerpts is planned. --Bluejay Young 08:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
You don't happen to have a link or something do you? I'd be curious about importing it. --Wolfrider (talk) 03:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Was it published with just the text or with the illustrations too? I read that Darger's self-bound volumes were cut up after his death to sell its components separately, and that now nobody knows which illustrations go where. Esn (talk) 01:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Darger's Mental State

I am having some difficulty understanding the phrases: 1. "(MacGregor later defended his psychoanalytic view of Darger, but denied that he accused him of murder.)" AND 2. "Bonesteel views MacGregor's references to Darger having a "pathology" as part of an attempt to classify Darger's work as Art Brut or outsider art, noting that this too is controversial."

1. I have been known to be dense but maybe this can use some clarification. Does this mean he still believed Darger had subconscious desires to harm children but that he didn't really think he actually committed murder? or that he believed he could have been the murderer but he does not formally accuse him?

2. This is a bit confusing and perhaps could be broken down a bit for those of us who aren't familiar with Darger at all. This "Bonesteel" came out of nowhere as far as I can tell (again, I came here having just heard of Darger and know nothing but what I have read here). But mostly I just don't understand this sentence at all. Do you mean MacGregor may have something more personal against Darger or that the whole talk about Darger wanting to harm children was far too speculative? (I apologize in advance if I mess something up here, this is my first time editing in wikipedia.) --Spastikman 04:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem. That was my edit, so I'll try to explain it. MacGregor is Darger's principal biographer and is considered by many reviewers (me included) to have an agenda. MacGregor's specialty is the "art of the insane" and he clearly wants to include Darger's work in this category. In promoting this view, he used the word "pathology" repeatedly, and made a lot of speculative statements, some of which may have been taken out of context (the most notable being "Darger had the mind of a serial killer" -- which MacGregor now denies he said or meant). People attending MacGregor's lectures on Darger came away with the clear impression that MacGregor thought Darger had killed Elsie. MacGregor denies that he meant any such thing. This is what I mean about the controversy.
Bonesteel is Michael Bonesteel (he should be cited in the references and if he isn't I will), a more sympathetic art critic who sees Darger as a talented amateur but not an "outsider artist", let alone an "Art Brut" or psychotic who happened to commit art. His book is Henry Darger, Art and Selected Writings. In many ways it is much more satisfying than MacGregor's because he presents and interprets Darger's work on its and Henry's own terms rather than resorting to shopworn psychiatric hypotheses. He wants us to see Darger as different, but not insane. He puts the art back in the context of the text, from which it had been separated by Darger's landlord when he wanted to put the pictures on show. Most of the book is selections from the text, letting Darger speak for himself. This helps the viewer to understand why Darger painted the way he did. One of the things Bonesteel talks about as having distorted the public's view of Darger's life and work is MacGregor's repeated use of the word "pathology". I hope this helps. --Bluejay Young (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

>>

We have a problem with this section. The article cited (citation #8) explicitly refutes the statement made in this paragraph, that MacGregor claims that "--Darger murdered Elsie..." The article actually tackles this controversy in depth, and MacGregor himself goes on record as never having made the above statement. I'm deleting this section-- please rewrite with appropriate citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.116.182.66 (talk) 20:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)