Talk:Henotheism

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Need some mention of the role of saints in Catholicism as a way of incorporating polytheistic religions into the explicit monotheism of Christianity. There's more ambiguity in this than some would admit--the Trinity itself is vaguely polytheistic.

Indeed, some Jews and Muslims critique Christianity's "monotheism" on precisely that basis. --FOo

Removed Jehovah's Witnesses. They monotheistc.

Contents

[edit] About Henotheism

The acceptance of other gods means that certain powers are assigned to other gods as well or they are just like spirits that can't do anything on their own? If second concept is true then why call them as gods. If first concept is true then what is the difference between polytheism and henotheism? PassionInfinity 08:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that in henotheism only one god is worshiped, though the existence of other gods is acknowledged (ancient Judaism may have been henotheistic; Zoroastrianism as well). In polytheism, several (or many) gods are acknowledged and also worshiped in some way. KHM03 11:47, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
By way of example: I Kings, chapter 18. Here is the account of the battle of the burnt offerings, with Elijah representing Yahweh and 450 unnamed priests representing Ba'al. The challenge is that both teams will lay out an altar set with sacrifices and call upon their respective gods to light the fire. Elijah succeeds, Ba'al's priests fail. The reason given is not that Ba'al is a "false god" or does not exist, but that Ba'al has no power within Yahweh's territory. The implication is that, had the same contest been done on Ba'al's turf and among Ba'al's people, Elijah would have failed. (TechBear 03:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC))

Isn't this essentially the same thing as monolatry? I see no real differences. - Wikigeek, 24 June 2007

[edit] Christianity section

Just want to interject that you cant say "mainline" forms of Christianity permit the asking of saints to intercede...forms of protestantism reject this outright... please see the section on protestantism in particular the tenets Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria. Christianity is often confused with Catholicism - just sayin... 71.187.66.95 (talk) 04:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

On Ig0774's edit: It may be more traditional in Western Christianity, but "person" is a very inadequate translation of "hypostasis". Since the paragraph purports to tell us what the Council of Nicaea said, it's perhaps best to avoid a term which it didn't use. ("Persons" translates "personae" or "prosopa", which is a gloss of "hypostasis" but actually means something different.)

On Paul Barlow's edit: After reading Trimurti and looking around some, I have to say I couldn't find a mention of a "divine essence" at all. If anyone does say that, it must be used in a very different sense than in Nicene Christianity. There, "essence" doesn't refer to anything with a concrete existence. It's an abstraction, which if it is to have any real existence must be expressed in a hypostasis. All created beings express their essences (*what* they are) as a single hypostasis (*who* they are). The Trinitarian God in this conception is unique in expressing his essence in three hypostases. On the other hand, the single God of Hinduism is believed to exist as an absolute unity, but adopts different "roles" in his actions. As far as I can tell, the reality believed to exist behind those roles is thought to exist in a real way, so this is not like the Christian "divine essence" at all.

("Essence" and "substance" here are synonyms, but since "substance" can translate either "ousia" or "hypostasis" I prefer "essence" for the first and "subsistence" for the second, to avoid confusion.)

I'm therefore reverting. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty clear. The Hindu notion is that Brahman is an impersonal concept of consciousness or "thought", that is understood, according to the Vedanta, to be the precondition for divinity - as manifested in Shiva, Vishnu, Shakti etc, etc. The Trimurti is not the central issue here. The point is that Vedanta claims that the force/substance of divine being precedes divine personality. The argument is that the Nicine formulation of divinity also implies that - by asserting that something called "substance" precedes and determines the relationship between "persons". I've no idea what is meant by the seemingly tautological assertion that "the reality believed to exist behind those roles is thought to exist in a real way ."Paul B 20:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Your error is in supposing that "essence" in Nicene thought is a "thing". It isn't; it's an abstraction that does not exist without a hypostasis. It cannot then "precede" the Three in any sense of the word, which the Nicene definition doesn't say anyway. You have demonstrated very clearly that, whatever is meant by "essence" or "substance" when discussing Trimurti in English, it is not the same idea. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
P.S. At this point, I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that sentence either. Probably that what you call the "force/substance of divine being" is thought to be something that has real existence on its own. As I said, this is unlike how ousia is used in the Nicene definition. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is part of the problem isn't it? There can be no single "correct" interpretation of the creed, or of the concept of Brahman. The creed exists as a form of words filled with ambiguity (or "mystery"). As for Hinduism, it isn't credal so there is no definitive statement of "Hindu doctrine", or of the meaning of the word "Brahman" - which can be understood as a concept, as a god, as a substance, or in another formulation. No one, I think, is suggesting that the ideas are the same - that is, identical - but that there is a significant commonality or similarity. What is meant by "ousia" or "substantia" is not asserted, beyond the fact of the use of those words in Greek and Latin. I'd suggest that we cannot say with certainty whether or not "Brahman" gestures towards the same meaning (or the same "thing") but we can legitimately point to the connections between the formulations. When I said that substance "preceded" "divine personality" I did not mean that in a chronological sense, though admitedly my language is inadequate here (in fact the Rig Veda sometimes does seem to imply chronological precedence to what is there called "the one"). I was trying to suggest that it is conceived of as a necessary condition for the "persons". But of course that statement is as arguable as others. Paul B 10:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
It would be absurd in reading any statement of any kind, credal or not, to expect it to define for itself all the terms it uses. Communication would be impossible if that were true. I'm giving you the sense of ousia as it was intended when used in the Nicene definition (and further developed at I Constantinople). This is easily determined from the writings of, for example, the Cappadocian fathers, or for that matter, any modern Orthodox writer on dogmatic theology. It's not controversial at all; it's a standard. As I said, it's not a "force" or "thought" or anything of the kind.
Ousia is not a necessary condition of the Trinity; rather, it how the Unity can be understood when both it and Trinity are revealed truths that must be taken as axoimatic. (And indeed how the Unity must be understood in a small-"o" orthodox manner.)
I'm sorry, but can't see how there is any kind of similarity between this and the concept of divine unity in Hinduism. The Hindu idea appears similar to Sabellianism, a Christian heresy that was rejected decades before Nicaea, and which is believed today by only a small minority of groups calling themselves Christian, all of relatively recent origin. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classical Greco-Roman Paganism

I excised "Paganism" from the above title on the main page. It wasn't necessary to the section, and it doesn't seem logical (to me) that the Ancient Greeks would be described as Pagan....

--Arkayik 04:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'M confused, but what would be illogical about refering to Ancient Greek religion as Paganism? Themill 07:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
As Wikipedia's own article on Paganism says, "'Paganism' frequently refers to the religions of classical antiquity, most notably Greek mythology or Roman religion, and can be used neutrally or admiringly by those who refer to those complexes of belief." This is indeed still one of the more common uses of the word. 66.241.73.241 (talk) 04:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

There appears to be a logical difficulty with this section. Ancient Greek "religion" is being defined by a quote from a 2nd CE century Roman. Am I confused (always a strong possibilty), or could this section be better worded by someone in the know about the subject...?

--Arkayik 04:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

He's a second century Greek. It's just that his name is Latinised. Paul B 10:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of CE and BCE preferred over AD and BC

Among historians, proper notation is to use C.E. (Common Era) and B.C.E. (Before Common Era) rather than A.D. (Anno Domini, Year of the Lord) and B.C. (Before Christ,) as C.E. and B.C.E. do not make assumptions about religious belief or the veracity of presumed events. Please stick with this protocol. TechBear 01:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such protocol. Wikipedia policy allows either notation. For articles with a multi-faith content, however, the CE notation usually preferred. But that's convention, not polcy. Paul B 07:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Among historians, BCE and CE is the protocol in all cases except one: material dealing exclusively with Christian history, religion or dogma; even there, the use of BCE and CE is becoming widespread. Regardless of Wiki's policy allowing notations that are no longer in use by scholars of a particular field, I believe it is a valid request to stick to the accepted practice of those scholars. TechBear 16:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with TechBear. —Nightstallion (?) 16:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This subject gets a lot of play on WIKI; further, it is a constant, repeated near whine from a small subset of individuals that have this passion about CE. Agreed, in most academic circles it has become the style of dating; however, the rest of the English speaking world (the common individual) understands AD/BC. It has meaning to them. In this instance, I favor using that which is most easily understood by the most people. Incidentially, do really think the majority also understand the that AD is Anno Domini. Latin went out generations ago; let's not get to excited about original meanings. It is like saying you can't practice Christmas because it is celebrated a the same time a pagan festival was held thousands of years ago. Much ado about nothing. Storm Rider (talk) 16:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My own field is Architecture History in which B.C. is the almost universal norm, generally nothing is used for the A.D. period unles there is doubt (first couple of centuries usually) and in that case one uses A.D. C.E. and B.C.E. is in my experience used only among scholars of religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.16.146.33 (talk) 21:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Masonic Belief

While going through the various '-isms' listed in connection with this article, I found nothing to express the beliefs of Freemasons. Freemasons, while claiming not to be a religion or to have any dogma or belief system, do subscribe to one or more particular ideas about the Deity. Freemasons admit men of any belief system, except atheists. So, that makes them at least theists. But they also refer to the Supreme Being as "The Great Architect of the Universe" and they obligate men on the holy writings of their choice. So, if men who are Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Christian or Hindu can stand together in a lodge and direct a prayer to the Great Architect, and can show equal respect for any particular revelation of the Deity, then they must have some agreement.

That agreement could be extrapolated as a belief. What is that belief? It would seem to be that the Deity for one man who is a mason is the same Deity for another mason who believes differently, but that Deity is merely known by another name. This is not really henotheism, which is the worship of one God, while accepting the existence of others. Masonic belief seems to proclaim that God gave different revelations to different people at different times and while known by many names, is still the same God. I find no particular '-ism' that encompasses this belief. Monotheism, by its traditional definition, does not seem to fit because it tends to confine its Deity to a particular revelation. It says that my God is the only God, but gave only one revelation and is in communion only with those who accept that revelation.

So, therefore the idea of one God with multiple revelations seems to fit Freemasonry alone, although perhaps Unitarianism comes close. As such, I propose that a new definition of "Masonism" be added to your list.Guy of Auvergne 16:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Freemasonary arises from 18th century deism. I don't think that Henotheism is an appropriate term for its characteristic claims. Paul B 16:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Deism does not recognize revelation. A lodge of Deists would have no holy writings on its altar. Also, when a Bible is opened on a Masonic altar, it no longer represents the religious views of Jews and Christians alone. It symbolizes the holy writings of all religions. Therefore, I believe that Henotheism is a good starting point for discussion of Masonic belief (or philosophy, for those who to object to the idea of Masonic religion), though ultimately, I think it deserves its own classification. This is no small matter, because the concepts of religious freedom enshrined in the US Constitution have at least some basis in Masonic philosophy, owing to the number of our Founding Fathers who were Freemasons.Guy of Auvergne 19:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gnosticism

The article says:

Christian Gnosticism is generally henotheistic.

How so? In what way? This is all that it says. This is way too little information. Bytebear 05:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israelite beliefs and Judaism

I object to the following as mealy-mouthed:

"2 Kings 3:27 has been interpreted as describing a human sacrifice in Moab that led the invading Israelite army to fear the power of Chemosh."

Actually, 2 Kings 3:27 describes the king of Moab sacrificing his own son to Chemosh, and the Israelites breaking off their God-directed war against Moab when confronted with a mysterious "wrath" or "indignation" that seems to be a direct consequence of the sacrifice. In other words, it does not so much suggest that the Israelite army was fearful of Chemosh-the-false-god as it suggests that Chemosh-a-real-if-lesser-god drove them away.

Yes, lots of Bible commentators prefer a monotheistic "interpretation" that obviates Chemosh's routing of God's army. But in the actual passage there is not a word about the Israelites being afraid, and given our topic on this page, I feel we should at least mention the real possibility that the chronicler of 2 Kings is himself henotheistic enough to believe that Chemosh exerted god-like power in response to a sacrifice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.241.73.241 (talk) 06:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What is not accepable in the article is to quote a primary text and assume that as sufficient. If there is an interpretation by a notable expert/reference, then quote he(r). If not, then the section is OR. As longs as there is a reference for a postion, it should typically be included in the article. --Storm Rider (talk) 06:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

-I protest the inclusion of Judaism and the Hebrew religion as henotheistic on the grounds that this page's own definitions of henotheism and monolatry display that the ancient Israelite peoples are better described as monolatrous in their earlier periods. Additionally, a distinction should be made: the mentioning of historical accounts which contain the actions of individual peoples or people groups should be differentiated from accounts which intend to establish doctrine or law. In other words, it may not be appropriate to identify any Hebrew religion as henotheistic or monolatrous, though it may be appropriate to note that, at times, the people claiming to follow these religions were henotheistic or monolatrous even if their religion's teachings did not reflect such beliefs. Troa (talk) 17:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)