User talk:Helvetius

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Re: Socialism and William Thompson

I haven't come across that quotation in the OED, but I'm sure you're not lying. In fact, most sourcebooks do say that that term "socialism" originated around 1830, so the assertion that it orgiginated in 1829 with Thompson seems plausible. Nevertheless, the article on socialism at Wikipedia is very broad, and we should probably not get into the obscure details about who coined the term "socialism" and when exactly. If you want to do that, the History of socialism article is a more appropirate place. But even there you would need something more than a primary source and a dictionary—perhaps a few academic essays or books, although they would still have to stand up to the more conservative findings of sourcebooks. I'm not disputing the occurance of a division between Thompson and Owen, nor am I disputing that Leroux introduced the term "socialism" to France in 1834. I'm simply letting you know that the article intentionally glosses over these details. Like I said, you may be more interested in the History of socialism, where things get a little more specific. -- WGee 03:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right the History of socialism page is the right place to start, particularly as the current position is to start with the erroneous statement that the word entered English from French when the reverse is true. Having grown up from 4 yrs onwards in France and Suisse Romande, I am bilingual and well aware that, although English has an overall larger vocab than French, in the specific area of political words, French has a larger vocab than English. Nonetheless, despite the latinate derivation, "socialism" is in actual fact an English neologism, not a French one, and given that this is counter-intuitive to many people's preconceptions, it needs to be backed up with some facts and references. Something tells me shifting the ground on this one is going to take me a while... Helvetius 04:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite a source for your contribution? Since it is not in general sourcebooks, it doesn't qualify as an "elementary fact" that would not need a citation. -- WGee 03:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC) User:WGee

In response to request for citations. The OED itself (easiest access), Richard Pankhurst's "William Thompson" (1954, 1991) currently out of print. "The Cooperative Magazine", 1828 - 1830 (only readily available copy, British Library) Helvetius 04:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I "created" your userpage so that your username won't be a red link anymore. Editors tend to prejudiciously dismiss the edits of "red-linkers" because they are often vandals or single-issue POV-pushers. -- WGee 03:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC

Fair enough, that's what it's there for. In the end I've been impressed enough by the impact that the political ideas of people who were long dead before I was born have had upon me and others, that I see identity as being a very poor second to ideas.Helvetius 04:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this the essay by Richard Pankhurst that you were talking about [1]? If so, it would be great if you could provide a quotation, since many people and local libraries do not have access to JSTOR. Also, could you provide the details about the edition of the OED in which you found the reference to Thompson? -- WGee 15:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay - I was away. On the plus side, I was down in London at the British library doing research on this (and related). To answer: Yes, that I believe that is the correct Pankhurst text (tho' I also have no access to JSTOR) it was actually released as a book in '54 and again by Pluto in '91. I'll look on tracking down exact reference. The edition of the OED is the Second, which I'm presuming is the current one given that it's the reference one in the BL and my local city library. I also now have a photocopy of the actual text (i.e. first use of 'Socialist') which is actually from the November 1827 issue of the Cooperative Magazine (p. 509)- so I got the year wrong. Quote: "The chief question on this point, however, between the modern (or Mill and Malthus) Political Economists, and the Communionists or Socialists, is, whether it is more beneficial that this capital should be individual or in common?"

Also see Pankhurst's footnote reference to Max Beer in Ch. 10, p. 70 of the 1991 Pluto ed. of said book: "During the eighteen-twenties Thompson was often in London, where his tireless propaganda gave impetus to the rapidly expanding Co-operative Movement. He was the driving force in the historic debates of the Co-operators which began at Chancery Lane in 1825 and were later transferred to Red Lion Square. It is believed that the term 'Socialism' was first coined at these debates [1]". The footnote reads: "1. M.Beer. A History of British Socialism (1929), Vol. I, p. 187." I'll check out the Beer reference by the end of the week. Helvetius 01:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)