Talk:Hellfire Club
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[edit] John Wilkes
Why is John Wilkes not listed as a member? His article seems fairly certain. What was Wilkes' prank that wound up the club (see John Wilkes#Early life)? Cutler 11:42, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Paul Whitehead
I clicked on Paul Whitehead's Wikipedia link and was directed to an artist who created album covers for the rock band Genesis. This is humanly impossible, as this entry lists a man of the same name as a founder of the Hellfire Club. This should be corrected.
- Then start an article on the 18th-Century Whitehead and create a disambiguation page, or remove the link, if need be. This kind of stuff happens all the time with names, especially such common ones. Fearwig 01:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] DAB
Should this page become a disambiguation and split into its components? -- UtherSRG 01:29, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Maybe move the section about the comic-book Hellfire Club to its own page, but leave the rest here? —Paul A 01:39, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I support a dab page Cutler 10:10, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Accuracy
I don't particularly like that the article cites mainly non-informational sources of the same name while making some claims that would surely be controversial if enough interest were involved. What sources cited pseudo-Satanic rites, orgies, et cetera? I mean, it doesn't sound altogether outside Wilkes's sense of humor, but it's exactly the kind of thing his opponents would be muttering about him for a laugh. The top source actually cites secondaries, but it debunks most of the controversy as myth. Why does the article reference it as established fact?Fearwig 01:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Other uses
An "other uses" list and a disambiguation page? Truly, Sir Francis, with these Hellfire clubs you are spoiling us! I will attempt to sort this out. Totnesmartin 10:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mere Existence
The problem with this topic is that there is no evidence whatever, not anywhere, that the "Hellfire Club" as discussed in the article actually had any existence. With the exception of a mention by Horace Walpole and a short paragraph in Chrysal there are no sources to cite... My own opinion is that the "club" as such did not exist - perhaps there was once or twice a rumbistious gathering or two, which other people referred to as a Hellfire Club but...
It's a bit like the "Bloomsbury Group" - they categorically didn't think of themselves as a group, but others did - whose word do we take? and how do you tell the story of something that, at least in the eyes of the supposed participants, did not exist?
There are some amusing and interesting speculations, and a lot to be said about the people supposed to have been concerned in it, however. The line one has to walk is between saying "it didn't exist" and cutting out what cannot be sourced, and saying "this is supposition" and then trying to recite at least a digest of the received wisdom. Ho hum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypherpress (talk • contribs) 17:10, March 31, 2007
What absolute rubbish, Cypherpress. Of course the Hellfire Club existed, and of course there is proof it did. Not only is there plenty of documentary evidence, but the direct "descendents" of the Club, the Phoenix Common Room at Brasenose, still own several artefacts that belonged to the Club (silverware etc). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.67.1 (talk) 11:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- The request for sources really just means that the authors from whose books all of the claims and assertions upon which the current article is built could, and should, be mentioned. For instance, I'm currently reading av book by Estonian conspiracy researcher Jüri Lina called Architects of Deception from 2004. It may not be considered solid and reliable by Wikipedia standards, however, it would be a place to start instead of having no such references. Then better sources could be listed as they surfaced. __meco 17:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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- well, I've cited the two contemporary references that I know of to Hellfire activities. I don't particularly want to cite modern references whose conclusions are wrong, misguided or fanciful - citation gives them an authority they don't have. I realise some of the problems this poses, so I'm going to go and have a look at how the wiki on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion deals with this area to find out how to proceed. --Cypherpress 17:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm very new to the wikipedia editing process, but I just thought I'd mention the book *The Hellfire Club* by Daniel P. Mannix. The book doesn't appear to be scholarly in that it doesn't cite sources (if I remember correctly), but as Meco was suggesting, it might be a good place to start. I just wanted to ask on the talk page before actually doing anything (you guys are more experienced than I), but would it be alright if I revised the article with information from Mannix's book, given its "unscholarliness"? Paswas n 23:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What this means?
"The suspense of Olivier Assayas film Demonlover (2002) partly regards The Hellfire Club both as a critical element and as a metaphorical border between reality and virtual world. " Axamoto 14:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] So what is it?
I came to this article hoping to learn a bit more, but there doesn't seem to be anything written about what the Hellfire Club actually was.MightyAtom 11:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Marvel's Hellfire Club
Should there be a mention of the Hellfire Club from X-Men somewhere since it's loosely based on the original club, or is the disambiguation page enough? Ichliebezuko (talk) 16:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Typically things on the disambiguation page aren't also mentioned in the article. Will in China (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. :) Ichliebezuko (talk) 16:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
