Talk:Hellbent

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[edit] Plot summary

There are a number of reasons why excessively long plot summaries are unencyclopedic; these are outlined on the guideline pages WP:WAF and WP:PLOT. In addition to being unencyclopedic, plot summaries are derivative works of the original work, even when rewritten in one's own words. As such, they are subject to Wikipedia's policy on non-free content; criteria 2 and 3 are especially relevant on this point. —Angr 21:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• The plot summary here does not seem markedly different in length, form or content from that included in the featured article Casablanca (film). I'm unsure what about this article has attracted your sudden attention but it seems a little unwarranted. I can certainly look at removing a little of the detail but the sort of wholesale hack and slash you're suggesting is unacceptable and unnecessary. Otto4711 17:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The reason this article attracted my sudden attention is that I just watched the movie. The fact that other articles (even featured ones) are just as bad or even worse doesn't change anything. What's unnecessary, and a violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and quite possibly a violation of copyright law, is a plot summary that recaps everything that happens in the movie. And if this is all you have in mind for "removing a little detail" there's still a long, long way to go. Remember, the contents of the plot summary are not uncopyrightable facts; they are the original ideas of the movie's writers, usable only under a claim of fair use. As such, Wikipedia policy requires that they be kept to an absolute minimum. Apart from that, the writing about fiction guideline explains that the main focus of articles like this has to be on the real world, not on the fictional universe. In its current state, the article consists of almost nothing but plot summary. Compare that to the proportion of Casablanca (film) spent on plot summary. —Angr 17:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe instead of hacking it down to a couple of sentences you can make some constructive suggestions. I'm not going to accept your proposed synopsis as a reasonable summary. My initial cuts were just that, initial. Maybe you could look at beefing up some of the other parts of the article so that the summary is less of a proportion of the article. Otto4711 17:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

My rule of thumb for plot summaries is, how much would I tell a friend or co-worker who asked me, "What happened in that movie you watched last night?" I think if you aim for the amount of detail you'd be likely to give in casual conversation, you're doing okay. That's what I did in my version; it ran very short because, let's be honest, this movie isn't Casablanca. It doesn't have much of a plot. A more honest answer to the question "What happened in Hellbent?" would be "A bunch of cute guys with their shirts off got killed by another cute guy with his shirt off" (but of course we can't write that). —Angr 18:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Obviously I disagree with your rule of thumb, but even if I didn't perhaps I tell my friends more details of films than you tend to. Additionally, I spoke with someone whose expertise on copyright law I trust who advises me that a written description of a film is not a derivate work under copyright law. Otto4711 01:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The writers of the Seinfeld Aptitude Test will be pleased to hear that; pity they already lost the lawsuit against them. —Angr 08:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I have added to plot tag again. I did it before I even saw all this discussion. The template says the plot section is "too long compared to the rest of the article." I don't think this is in question. The rest of the article needs beefing up to match the plot section. I don't know much about this movie, but I'll do some research when I have time and come back to it. Other applicants welcome :) MrMelonhead (talk) 05:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)