Talk:Helicopter

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[edit] Rotary Action - guide to helicopters in movies and TV

It has useful information, but I don't know whether or not it's trivial, discuss. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 15:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If it could be used to eliminate the damn Trivia...I mean, Subject in popular culture sections in the helicopter articles, I say let it in. --Born2flie (talk) 07:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
If it's useful, then it probably won't be allowed by the Delete-gods. I wish I were just being funny, but I have a feeling I'm dead-one! - BillCJ (talk) 07:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Gazelle is missing the fake engine nacelles seen in the movie, Blue Thunder. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 16:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I don't even remember WHY I asked this to begin with. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 18:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Should the word 'airplane' be used?

I'd like to propose that 'airplane' should be removed from the article and, where approriate, replaced with 'Fixed wing aircraft'. The reason for this is simple, The spelling 'airplane' Is only correct in North America and as such is an incorrect spelling with in the commonwealth and to many non-native speakers of english. Its use makes the article read badly outside of N.America and the Wiki article is titled 'Fixed wing Aircraft'. (Morcus (talk) 03:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

Y Done IAW WP:MOS. Thanks for pointing that out. --Born2flie (talk) 07:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Changing from a common term to a less common one. Got to make everybody happy, whatever.. -Fnlayson (talk) 11:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image size

I really think that Image:HE2G8.jpg needs to be enlarged. At the default settings, it's very difficult to make out any sort of detail, and its usefulness suffers. I tried to enlarge it twice and was changed back twice, apparently due to concerns regarding WP:MOS#Images. But, the MOS states that specifying the size of images with extreme aspect ratios may be appropriate in order to improve page layout, which seems to be the case here. Not a huge deal, just wondering. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I find it personally old since it's black and white. But I know what your point is, it's hard to see what the image is about when it's in the article. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe the intent of the guideline is that not everyone accesses Wikipedia with a screen size that makes the photo look small. If you give the thumbnail a mandatory size of 300px and view the article at a 640x480 screen resolution, the pic will take up almost half the width of the page at that point. It can give an image more prominence that is perhaps misleading as to an image's actual importance to that part or the rest of the article. Frankly, I think the picture is poor quality and cropped badly (I don't believe that old pictures were that dimension, but possible). Granted, quality is a function of the age of the subject and the available source material, but this is the picture we're left with (unless someone can find a better one?). A custom image size for this image should probably be discussed here among the editors and a consensus reached on just which size would be agreeable to most. --Born2flie (talk) 08:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NOTAR Safety Attributes

I think the "Verification Needed" is unnecessary, because in this case the elimination of personnel injury potential is self-evident. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 18:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

NOTAR is a tradeoff. The "self-evident" safety advantage has been debated ad nauseum in professional pilot and engineering circles. I had to look hard to find a single report about an individual being struck by the tail rotor, so how big of an issue is this? Some statistics of number of tail rotor strikes resulting in personal injury/fatality to gauge how much of a problem this has been versus how the NOTAR impacts in the realm of safety would be a nice verification. Otherwise, it is simply a statement that parrots the manufacturer's claims and the section becomes an advertisement for NOTAR. --Born2flie (talk) 06:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

The article is maturing to the point where additions of pictures affect the layout of the different sections (white space, dividing sections of text). I propose that image additions and placement be discussed in the talk page to keep the article from being overwhelmed by rampant image addition. --Born2flie (talk) 07:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I concur with your assessment that the pics are a problem. However, the editors who would make and follow your proposal aren't the ones adding the images. How do you suggest we enforce it? (Other than summary execution or water boarding (equal in the miniscule minds of the US media), which I would be in favor!) ;) I'm having similar problems on the A-4 page, including from an editor who should know better. I just keep deleting, sigh, then scream! - BillCJ (talk) 08:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I was planning on a text comment in the article and then of course, deletion of each image added to the article and initiating a discussion for each image here on the talk page. If the consensus is to not add the image, then there is a history showing that the image was considered and rejected with a list (hopefully) of reasons why. Editors who want to contribute might see the historical process (it can even be a talk subpage for each image) rather than just throw their favorite image where they think it fits, which seems to be the modus operandi for editors who have previously had nothing to do with this article. For those images that are just added without taking heed to the comment or the process, simply delete. If the editor feels that the image is worth including, bring it up for consideration on the talk page and the group determines where it goes.
Of course, many will claim WP:BB as their directive to continue to add images carte blanche. --Born2flie (talk) 14:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Your proposal works for me. If we get to the point wher we need sub-pages, then one sub-page for image discussions would be fine, but I doubt we'll ever need it! ;) I'm for trimming back as much as possible, and keeping the remaining images in the text. - BillCJ (talk) 18:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I have put the two biggest "image farms" in gallery format. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Ewww! Galleries are even worse, especially in the main text sections, where pics are often illustrative of the text in that section. - BillCJ (talk) 09:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with you on that one. In gallery form they are more attached to the sections than they were before. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 12:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
"more attached to the sections", but not the text within those sections, ot at least in order of discussion and moderately close to the relevant paragraphs. Galleries are useful in very short articles where there's not enough room for even 2-3 images, especiallyin cases with long infoboxes, or where there is a group of related images that don't really need to take up room in the text. We have a Commons link for the majority of pictures, and this makes article galleries redundant in most other cases. There is a discussion at WT:AIR#Galleries that is attempting to form guidelines for the use of galleries in aircraft-related article - feel free to chime in! - BillCJ (talk) 18:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I gave it a couple of days, and I'm not a fan of the galleries. In the end, they don't really solve the problem either, since they will just grow larger as the repository for all the additional images added to the article. --Born2flie (talk) 22:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikification

Regarding a revert of a wikification edit I made:

rv overwikification counter to WP:MOS intent and WP:OVERLINK.

My edits were hardly overwikification - I linked just a few concepts that a person reading the article would wish to explore to further their understanding of helicopters...

  • hover - the word is used all over the article and is a pretty fundamental concept for helicopters, yet I do not see it defined anywhere on the page, and it is not wiki-linked anywhere on the page - it should at least be wikied under Flight conditions.
  • the article tells me that helicopters can be used for transportation, for construction, for firefighting, search and rescue... I want to click on those things to find out more.. the link for Transport Helicopters is inexplicably routed to the military. Why have an Other uses list when the section right above that already talks about the same things in paragraph form?
  • if the article says that helicopters put things on buildings or build roads or move troops, it is reasonable for me to want to find out more about those objects - why use helicopters.

Please actually read WP:OVERLINK. None of the links I created fall under WP:OVERLINK#What generally should not be linked. As for WP:OVERLINK#What generally should be linked, consider "Word usage that may be confusing to a non-native speaker", "Relevant connections to the subject of another article that will help readers to understand the current article more fully", and technical terms.

From WP:MOSLINK: "Generally, where it is likely that a reader may wish to read about another topic, the reader should not have to hunt for a link elsewhere in the page." for someone reading this article who is unfamiliar with helicopters, there are a large number of concepts they would naturally want to click on... many of the paragraphs in the current article have one or no links. Internal linking is one of the primary tools we use to bond Wikipedia together - WP:BUILD.

"Fire Helicopter" is a redirect to an article already linked at a much more relevant position in the article, even though downstream

Except that later link is wrong... it should be to Aerial firefighting which includes other aircraft and then no need for a pipe.--Marcinjeske (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

  • But Helitack is specific for helicopters. It is certainly not "wrong". -Fnlayson (talk) 15:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
  • As far as what should be not be linked, a lot of those linked are common words, e.g. roads. Your point about hover seems like a fair one. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Defense of Linking

Well, it seems silly to link the words "aerial firefighting" to something else when the sentence clearly is referring to "aerial firefighting" (not just helicopter firefighting)... see how you like it now.
Yes, you are correct that I may have overdone it with "road", but that does not diminish the rest. Hover is just the easiest and most obvious example that comes to mind... up until my recent edit, there was no link to such basic helicopter terms as heliport and heliskiing or even Category:Helicopter airlines.
  • Not to mention fun but relevant stuff like human-powered helicopter and helicopter prison escapes.
  • Not to mention all the terms a user reading about helicopters for the first time might ask:
    • What's a gearbox? A tailboom? Yaw control? Airfoil? What does it mean to be steam-powered? What's altitude?
    • What about something like SimCopter - the existence of software to simulate helicopter flight should find a place in this article... and I am sure there are much appropriate flight sims?
  • These all seem silly questions to ask... but this article is not being written for those who already know everything about helicopters.
  • And yes, they could just type the word into a search engine... but then why is this article on a wiki at all if that's what you want readers to do in so many obvious cases. I am not advocating WP:BUILD#Wikipedia does not use Allwiki, but the nature of wikis and Wikipedia is that a healthy smattering of links build new paths of learning for the reader... yes, Nazi (linked in Helicopter#Birth of an industry has absolutely nothing to do with helicopters... but that does not mean the reader may not want to learn more. Let them do so with ease.
Anyway, I just did another edit to uses... we will see how other editors will react to those changes. I did try to reign in my linking impulses. --Marcinjeske (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Common words is precisely why I reverted the edit and Fire helicopter is a redirect to the article that was already linked to in the article, again in an appropriate place for people to be inquisitive about that particular use of helicopters. It was much simpler to revert and take a little collateral damage for any valid links than to edit it for each individual instance.

In general, do not create links to:

  • Plain English words, including common units of measurement.
In general, do create links to:
  • Relevant connections to the subject of another article that will help readers to understand the current article more fully (see the example below). This can include people, events and topics that already have an article or that clearly deserve one, as long as the link is relevant to the article in question.}

– WP:OVERLINK, (emphasis added)

The relevant link for construction and logging is the article on aerial cranes, which discusses the use of helicopters for those uses. While relevant in that article, links to construction and logging are not relevant here where there is no further treatment of the helicopter use for those industries. I probably don't have to address roads.

"Fire Helicopter is a redirect to an article already linked at a much more relevant position in the article, even though downstream." Except that later link is wrong... it should be to Aerial firefighting which includes other aircraft and then no need for a pipe.

– Marcinjeske (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

If you looked at the Aerial firefighting article, when it treats helicopters, it tells you that the main article dealing with helicopters in aerial firefighting is...Helitack. So, why would we link to the middle man, when we can go straight to the source? Hover is a dab page, also listed in "What not to link" under WP:OVERLINK. The only wikilink that you added that I can't argue against as irrelevant, a dab, or a redirect to an already linked article is "airspeed", which first occurs in the article in the section you were editing. --Born2flie (talk) 17:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I must say I do agree with What's a gearbox? A tailboom? Yaw control? Airfoil? What does it mean to be steam-powered? What's altitude? because I'm not aware of one of those terms. Great going with the links, it's always a good thing to see an article improved. I know how irritating it can be having to copy and paste terms into the search field, I can imagine. So great work you guys, I chose to watch this article because I wanted to know more about helicopters. Hell, I might even check those links sometimes. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 17:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The style of articles on Wikipedia is to be a summary of the topic, not a "full-length, in-depth expose of everything that could possibly be brought up about the topic, ever." --Born2flie (talk) 17:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
You obviously misread my post, and that's ok, I can misread too. I never said everything relevant should be linked, never. I was agreeing with one example. Again, I'm watching this page to learn more about helicopters. I never said that everything about helicopters should be included. I really think you must have misread my post, I was making a compliment in my last post, saying great job on the link, and I still am, keep it up. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 18:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
My comment is directed towards Marcinjeske's perception of what this article should include. It is a common misperception within Wikipedia that every article should be a "leave no stone unturned" exploration of the topic rather than meet the stated purpose of Wikipedia as an encyclopedic article. I have no problem linking to relevant subjects in order to BUILD the encyclopedia. It is just frustrating when someone not vested in the progression of this article along the quality path comes in to make the article less than it was when they arrived because their edits aren't oriented towards the goal. To improve, you have to know where something is and where it is headed, you have to know what it will take to get it there. A guideline by itself, applied with gusto, is enough to take an article out of contention for the next level of article development. There are many subgoals to the Wikipedia, but the goal that always trumps out is to make a quality online encyclopedia. --Born2flie (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uses of Helicopters

This is meandering toward frustrating... I appreciate your courtesy in at least evaluating my edits and leaving a few uncontroversial ones behind and improving them. I refer to hover, clearer use of helitack, helibuckets, and a few rewordings. You also improved the clarity of the firefighting and medical uses paragraphs.

However, I cannot understand why you insist that the remaining uses of helicopter be relegated to a list without any context. Of those links left in the Other uses list, the article for Motion picture photography, Electronic news gathering, Tourism, and Transport do not mention helicopters in their text, and except for Transport do not mention aircraft of any kind. And Transport mentions helicopter just once, stating that they are used for military application, and then directs the reader back to Helicopter. These topics are relevant to the Uses of Helicopters, but they need to be presented within contextual information so that the reader can know how they are relevant. The set of paragraphs I edited served that purpose... perhaps poorly, but better than a list.

You also removed reference to subjects that 1) have been deemed notable enough by editors to merit their own articles and 2) are directly relevant to the nature of helicopters - in being their uses in tourism, transportation, and culture. Why is it that the Uses section is composed almost solely of uses by institutions, emergency services and the military? Do not civilian and commercial uses merit note? Someone referencing this version of the encyclopedia would remain ignorant that individual people use helicopters to get around, conduct sports, experiment in their backyard, or to get their daily news and traffic. A list of "See also" links does not suffice in this case.

I am not proposing a "leave no stone unturned" exploration... I wish to only note the relevant stones so that readers may choose to turn them (by following the hyperlink) and continue their exploration. I too wish to build the Encyclopedia, and I think that in not being vested in the past progression of this article, I am bringing a fresh perspective to material that should not be set in stone.

I have carefully stepped through the archived discussions of this page, and I cannot find any discussion of why the Other uses list is in this form. I did find these wise words which I will now shamelessly take out of context:

  • "An article about helicopters should have a good enough overview of the History and then focus on Uses of helicopters, rather than how they work."
  • "Articles are supposed to change, evolve, not remain stagnant."
  • "Denying one criteria may confirm another, and so, one brackets the target with indirect fires until one hits the target or else the target presents itself as a direct fire opportunity."

None of us should be here to fight each other; we are ultimately striving for a common purpose... so can we get some Helitack teams in here to douse the "fire"? (and yes, I am mixing your prior metaphor)

As for the aspiration to WP:TPA, I would again like to quote selectively:

  • "is understandable; it is clearly expressed for both experts and non-experts in appropriate detail, and thoroughly explores and explains the subject."
  • "branches out; it contains wikilinks and sources to other articles and external information that add meaning to the subject."
  • "acknowledges and explores all aspects of the subject; i.e., it covers every encyclopedic angle of the subject."
  • "is not attainable. Editing may bring an article closer to perfection, but ultimately, perfection means different things to different Wikipedians. Perfection may not be achievable, but it's fun trying. For more information, see our editing policy."

I would appreciate any ideas on how turning the set of links at the bottom of the Uses section into prose would detract from the ideal set in WP:TPA. --Marcinjeske (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

On the matter of hover, would anyone object to using the Levitation disambiguation of it? That will lead to Bernoulli's principle among other tasty topics. --Marcinjeske (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
But a hover isn't levitation. And teaching someone that lift is simply an application of Bernoulli's principle is inaccurate and a disservice to the reader. The hover dab article links to Hover (helicopter), which is a redirect to Helicopter flight controls, an article where the explanation of the hover mode of flight is actually included in this article. So, is it really necessary to link to the word hover to explain it when the source that would ultimately be used in the Wikipedia to explain it is already included in this article?
Re: the list of uses versus a prose presentation. In addition to the previous paragraphs having an applicable target article that goes into some detail on the use of helicopters for those purposes, there is some depth to the topic which allows it to be discussed in a prose form, otherwise it would just be a longer bulleted list. Each preceding item is also self-contained in its paragraph with the information relative to that specific use, not multiple uses in a single paragraph. If you can build each of those items in the list into a paragraph with at least three applicable sentences for each item that are fairly decent grammar-wise and not just filler to make three sentences, I wouldn't fight that. But you had two or three topics in a single paragraph, which is just a disguised list.
The MOS says to make it a list (undisguised) or to rewrite it to where it doesn't resemble a list. In this article it repeatedly ends up as a list. Lists are allowed where there is not enough prose to support the information being provided, or when it is better presented in a list form.
In changing the article, the quality should not be reduced, but rather improved. The application of one guideline to the exclusion of another without consensus is not improving an article. What's more, the notion that articles should change isn't in response to a single editors' arrival and determination that the article should change but rather based on new information being available, changes in how the subject matter is addressed in industry/scholarly circles, new media available, all oriented towards developing the article to where it is the Wikipedia equivalent to "near perfect"; the FA-Class article (which is a goal able to be realized for over 1600 articles, and maybe someday even for this article). --Born2flie (talk) 21:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
This article isn't even a good article yet. Let's make it a good article candidate before thinking about making it featured. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Born's main point was about improving articles. Featured Article status is (or should) be the end goal with Good Article status a step on the way. If every section was referenced, I don't think this article would lack much to making GA. -Fnlayson (talk) 22:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
On hover and other similar terms... should they be linked when those links also appear elsewhere on the page. Certainly yes... unless those other links appear within a few paragraphs of the term's location, or it is clear that a reader will readily be able to locate the link. We cannot expect the user to see a term they do not understand or wish to know more about, and make them scan the page for a relevant link. This is especially so if the other appearance of the link is piped to a different name or the proposed link would pipe to a different name.
Looking more closely at Levitation, you are correct that it is not an optimal destination to send the hover-curious. The article does imply that Bernoulli's principle is the cause of the list rather than a step along the path. I hope you get a chance to improve it. (Although how one can argue that hovering is not levitation without really splitting hairs is unclear to me.) But Helicopter flight controls#Hover is completely inadequate... unless I am missing something, it does not cover what a hover is at all... it merely discusses how a pilot control the craft and the difficulties involved.
In regards to the Uses prose, are you suggesting that if a topic does not already have an extensive article in Wikipedia, we should refrain from mentioning it at all? The helicopter is the natural place to cover aspects of helicopter use which do not merit their own article at this time. The depth is there... helicopters are used to transport people in a number of different styles and how can heliports not be included in an article on helicopters? There are target articles for heliport, backpack helicopters, human-powered helicopters, and heliskiing, yet you removed that content as well.
As for the grouping and style, while I agree that the Search/News paragraph was mixed (couldn't you have just split them), the transport paragraph was a single paragraph all to itself. The paragraph on recreational uses including tourism, sport, and cultural was perhaps less cohesive, but that is mainly because aerial photography is used in so many ways. You allude to "decent grammar" and "not just filler" - my writing was not poetic, but where did it fail in grammar?
Anyway, I will post to the talk page a proposed rewrite of those... asking that anyone else who finds merit in the edits go ahead and make them... to make sure I don't take any further reverts personally. I did not appreciate your insistence that by describing how helicopters relate to what was a perfunctory list I was reducing the quality of the article. Your reference to "a single editor's arrival" makes it seem that if an editor has not already edited the article, they should not be allowed to start to edit it - an easy way to keep out any new contributions. If only "new information" will convince you to change the article, then you presume the article to be already perfect. That is not the case. --Marcinjeske (talk) 12:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that you would take any thing I've said personally. It seems a lot of guff to justify your edits, or to subdue me into not opposing whatever edits you make. This is the personality conflict nature of "anyone can edit". Suffice it to say that I'm not against you editing this or any other article on the Wikipedia, or on my watchlist for that matter, but I am against editors in general who just plop prose down and call it good or an improvement. I don't think you've been honest with the edits you made, and it really just started with you wikifying everything in one section you felt needed "more". We didn't even talk about the formatting you attempted later, or the first person, "Upon reflection..." bit. On the positive side, you're more involved with the article, on the negative side, you seem to only care that what you offered be accepted regardless of the quality, real or perceived.
I'm also not suggesting or advising that you need to submit your edits on the talk page. It is an opinion I have for GA and FA-Class articles that will never reach consensus within Wikipedia. Edit the article at will, that's how Wikipedia works, just don't be surprised or offended if another editor comes along to edit what you put in there. As for me, you know what my position is, and how I will approach whatever you add; I'm looking for the quality of the contribution as well as trying to meet the MOS with an eye towards the goal of GA and then FA. --Born2flie (talk) 14:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
No guff, I am simply expressing my frustration at what seems like an arbitrary line in the sand and I wish you would suggest what could be improved in my contribution to meet the standards of this article. Is it simply that a list of uses without any context as to how helicopters are used for those purposes is sufficient? I want to understand what you object to so that I may address it... if I have to blindly try and edit, we are both going to waste time undoing edits and that is pointless.
Why can we not touch on the transportation and recreational uses of helicopters in the Helicopter article? What about the paragraphs I have suggested makes them worse than the single link list they replace? You are wrong in that I am honest about my edits... my initial wikify phase came as I read through the article and found myself constantly thinking... have they introduced that term... or thinking I would like to click and learn more... and it not being a link. I never justified anything by my feeling the need for "more" links... but with specific links to relevant concepts of interest to a reader of the article.
Which formatting are you referring to? When I tried to separate the use paragraph or when I tried to touch the "holy list"? As for the "Upon reflection" being first person... please reconsider:
Upon reflection, some captured suspects execute their own helicopter prison escapes.
The reflection is that done by the suspects... I was merely using a bit of humor to engage the reader... particularly coming at the end of a paragraph where police were using helicopters to capture criminals... those suspects could apply that same tool to escapes. Whether it was an ill chosen turn of phrase I cannot say, but it certainly was not first person musings.
No, I am asking what is faulty with the quality of what I offered in that you reject it so quickly. It does not make sense for me to simply reinsert if your reaction will be to remove them... that is why I am attempting an alternate approach for a bit. The article you cherish so will not reach a higher status if is lacking in its coverage of how the subject is used in daily life... I hope that concerns you. --Marcinjeske (talk) 15:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
We're quickly getting into short answer territory.
  1. Not the way you used, "Upon reflection,..." The paragraph is discussing the police and then upon reflection, you change to the criminals? It doesn't make grammatical sense. The significant change in style is what lends it to a first person interpretation of the use. Whose reflection, when the paragraph just concluded talking about police use of helicopters. What specifically about beginning the phrase that way lends the reader to believe that it isn't your reflection about the situation and your viewing criminals using helicopters irony? None.
  2. Formatting: Using bolding to highlight words. It was contrary to MOS and I don't see a need to ignore that rule for your edits. Again, running contrary to MOS has consequences for the article.
  3. The List. The list is not holy, nor is it special. I'd delete the list altogether, but someone will recreate the list in the hidden form of prose as soon as the list is gone i.e. its already been done before. You did it when it was present. Again, already happened before.
  4. Your links:
    • You're telling me that you were curious about construction and roads? Or that you were satisfied with the links you chose to tell you how helicopters were used for each of those, that you made links relevant to the subject of this article? You're satisfied with the link you chose for "hover" to answer your stated question about, "What is hovering?" To me, these are arguments to justify your actions because they have been pointed out not to meet the common sense test about wikilinking articles based on the guidelines presented.
    • You linked phrases to articles about companies and categories. These are easter egg links and are to be avoided because the reader doesn't know the actual article they're going to is about a company and not the phrase you linked from. It really doesn't matter that the company does the kind of flying you're talking about. Also, the category link won't answer a questions about, "What is a helicopter airline?" All it will provide is a list of helicopter airlines. The guideline about wikilinking even says to preview the links, to verify the article exists or is about the subject you're linking to, you're stretching that to include any article that might remotely address what you've linked in order to justify linking at all. In fact, it has the appearance that you are advertising those specific companies in the article by linking to them specifically for those uses rather than any other similar company.
  5. Expanding to prose.
    • Consequently, you've expanded the section with fluff telling people that helicopters pick people up in one spot and drop them off in another. Really? Wouldn't that be talking down to the reader?
    • Your POV suggestion that "rich" people get shuttled in helicopters. And without a source, it can only be construed to be the editor's conclusion.
    • Your second suggested paragraph is simply a list disguised in fluff prose.
1. Yes, the way I used it, as an dependent clause, it attaches to the subject of the sentence: suspects. These two sentences are semanticly identical:
Upon reflection, some captured suspects execute their own helicopter prison escapes.
Some captured suspects, upon reflection, execute their own helicopter prison escapes.
To do what you are suggesting, *I* would have to be the subject of the sentence. As in: "Upon reflection, I think the rules of grammar are not the reason for the objection." But that's quibbling over an unessential turn of phrase... if we remove "upon reflection", do you object to suspects using helicopters to escape?
2. Bolding to highlight words. (Ignoring for the moment that bolding is literal highlighting.) You are correct, rereading the Boldface guideline, I was misapplying the style for an article introduction paragraph to all paragraphs. Thank you for correcting me. I will use italics in the future sparingly for that purpose per Wikipedia:MOSBOLD#Emphasis.
3. So perhaps not holy then... your firm stand is that a naked list is the best of two evils. So that goes back to my question of why civilian use of helicopters (for transport, recreation, etc) is not notable enough to actually be discussed briefly in this article? If "it already happened before', then perhaps you might consider that it is not just me being a looney who can't write or read, but that I am a part of a pattern of editors - those who see the article, see that something is obviously missing, and attempt to add it. Wikipedia:Embedded list does not give significant guidance either way, but do the other editors feel so strongly that these topics are not acceptable for a prose form?
4. Please, stop using the roads as your example... I already admitted, earlier on to another editor, that this was an unwise choice. As to construction, yes, it does naturally occur to me to read more on construction. Links serve both to expand on the article topic (Helicopter flight controls) and let users jump to other, related topics (like French language in the opening paragraph of the article). Per Wikipedia:MOSLINK#Internal_links:
"Generally, where it is likely that a reader may wish to read about another topic,
the reader should not have to hunt for a link elsewhere in the page."
Linking to the hover disambiguation page was suboptimal, but better than not linking at all, since it gave readers the pointer to either Levitation or Hover (helicopter), at which point they could decide if they want to explore the idea of hovering in general or specifically how a pilot controls a helicopter in hover. I think both those articles are a bit disappointing, but that is life. Why can't you assume good faith on my part and have to question my motives... these "arguments" are not to justify my actions, but to justify the need for links at those particular points in the article.
Ok, that is finally some concrete criticism: linking to specific airlines. I could not find articles describing those uses, so I thought linking to articles about entities which exemplify those uses would be appropriate. That may have been a poor choice. How about footnotes of the "an example of such use is XXXX" variety? I looked through many articles here at Wikipedia to try to pick good representatives of each type. That you perceive it as promotion I can see. Would you also wish to remove all the brand names of helicopters which appear in the article next to "such as" and "common are"? I think that would detract from the article, as it makes sense to point out concrete examples to illustrate abstract discussion.
As to helicopter airline, there is sadly no entry for helicopter airline. There are at least two ways to define something, by description and by examples. Since we do not have a description of helicopter airlines, a list of them serves to illustrate what they are. (You could take the approach of trying to say what they are not, but that would take too long ;).
5. No, the "fluff" discusses why helicopters pick up and drop off people. It may be "talking down" to you, but given that the word passenger appears only once on the page, a casual reader could be excused for thinking that the only people in helicopters are pilots and firefighters.
No, the "rich" was not my POV suggestion... it had direct basis in the article I footnoted for that sentence. I personally don't think that helicopter travel in urban areas is solely for the rich, but I could not find sources to back that up so I went with what I had.
While the second paragraph is less cohesive than the first, it hardly is just a fluff of a list. It expresses the following ideas:
The purpose of helicopters in tourism is sightseeing; in sports, thrill-seeking.
Operators will not devote helicopters to a single purpose, but offer a mix of services.
In filmmaking, helicopters are used because of their ability to capture action scenes and panoramic views.
The energy industry needs to explore possible drilling sites and they use helicopters to do so.
Again, do you object to my specific phrasing, or do you object to these topics having words devoted to them? --Marcinjeske (talk) 21:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  1. The problem is that "Upon reflection" doesn't fit the way you want it to without a transition, and the use of reflection versus reflecting makes it in disagreement with suspects and the modifying "some", which is also a vague term to be avoided. The end result is that phrase doesn't sound the least bit encyclopedic. And you already mentioned that you were attempting to "add humor" for the reader. If they wanted humor, they wouldn't be reading an encyclopedia. If you want the suspects escaping prison using helicopters, find an encyclopedic tone to write it in. The facts, just the facts.
  2. The use of quotes makes me wonder how sparingly is sparingly?
  3. The issue is that it has always been done poorly and the end result is, again, a disguised list.
  4. The link to the French language is also a guideline for explaining foreign words and not simply an application of MOSLINKS.
  5. The article on transport says that helicopters are used to move people from one place to another, and readers are able to get that from clicking on the freaking link in a list to answer the question, "How are helicopters used in transport?"
    • "rich" is a word with negative connotations. You need to find a different way to say that to maintain WP:NPOV.
--Born2flie (talk) 07:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Further reflections on Grammar, Style, and Links

Starting a new section to ease viewing and response (and to reduce the impression that we are hovering without purpose).

1. I recognize that a reader could be confused by the usage of "upon reflection" and misunderstand its meaning. Therefore, as I have said, let us remove it. However, I am inexplicably driven to correct such a misunderstanding of grammar (it must be a subliminal message in the monobook skin):

Upon reflection, some captured suspects execute their own helicopter prison escapes.
  • "upon is a preposition, which creates "a relationship between other words in a sentence" [1] or, if you prefer an internal source, "indicates a relation between things mentioned in a sentence"
    • this means that "upon reflection" is a prepositional phrase
    • the phrase's surface position is purely syntactic and has no semantic relevance - meaning there is no effect on meaning
      • these sentences are semantically the same: "Upon reflection, Todd ate a sandwich."; "Todd, upon reflection, at a sandwich."; "Todd ate a sandwich upon reflection."; "Todd ate, upon reflection, a sandwich." In fact, the commas are there because I like commas (and to clearly separate the phrase); they are (mostly) not strictly necessary. See: "This morning Todd ate a sandwich."
    • Therefore, "upon" is defining a temporal relationship: First "reflection" happens, then "Todd eats a sandwich".
  • So now we are back at "reflection", what is it and who is doing it. (And using "reflecting" instead would make no difference.)
    • reflection is "serious thought or consideration" (Per New Oxford American) and is based on the idea of bending your perception to look back at or within yourself, like looking in a mirror.
    • The subject that indulges in reflection needs to be some thinking being(s). In the sentence, there is only one to choose ("suspects") because neither helicopters nor prisons can think (at least not yet - queue the RoboCop-ter!).
      • You rightfully point out that the subject does not have to be in the sentence, it could be implied. However, explicit subjects are usually preferable.
        • Possible subjects beside "suspects" include: the speaker ("Upon my reflection") and the reader ("Upon your reflection") and any number of possible groupings ("Upon the Senate's reflection", "Upon Aunt Sally's reflection", and so on). All these sound a bit artificial because they act against the natural inclination to attach to a subject within the sentence.
        • Implied subjects are usually only valid in writing an imperative statement, and even then the usual implied subject is the reader: "Go read a book on grammar."
        • I would argue that the subject cannot be the speaker, as Wikipedia is not written in the first-person. The best one can imagine for a speaker is "the collective of all editors", but I think that is not something that will come to the mind of the reader. I think you, reading that sentence in isolation and knowing it is written by me, are able to imagine a speaker, but a reader doing so in the context of reading the article would need to engage in some linguistic convulsions to do so.
      • In general usage, I find that in cases where there is not a clear subject already in the sentence, "upon reflection" is meant to attach to a generic "person" (basically, some arbitrary thinking entity) because the important part is what is being reflected upon. Common usage like "Upon reflection, it seems clear that ..." is not talking about what the writer thinks unless the writer is writing in first person. In scholarly works, it implies anyone... "After one thinks about it, it seems clear" - but notice that "After I think about it, some captured suspects execute their own helicopter prison escapes." is nonsensical.
  • I hope that suffices... I have exhausted my ability to discuss prepositional phrases for at least two weeks. (and exposed myself to everyone pointing out my grammatical mistakes in anything I write) --Marcinjeske (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Let's go back and clarify the fact that prison means that they aren't suspects, they're convicts. If it was a jailbreak, then they could be suspects, although they could also be convicts at a jail as well. More properly we could call them inmates. And again, all kinds of justification for a poorly worded sentence inserted where it made no sentence agreement in the paragraph, because the subject of the paragraph was talking about police use of helicopters. If you had previously been discussing Tom, then referencing Tom's reflection and subsequent action might be acceptable. Additionally, "Upon reflection" is more often used to describe a change in thought or action by the subject based upon their reflection. You've used it to simply suggest (without a source) that the use of helicopters by inmates to escape prison is a thought generated by their remembering how they were captured. So, I would say, again, that this is an improper use of "Upon reflection...". I think you're just too married to how you want to present that sentence, and I question how much more you're going to add to this library trying to make it acceptable. --Born2flie (talk) 09:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Uses Paragraphs

I am proposing that these be added to the uses section in place of the related item from the Other Uses list:

Helicopters are used to transport passengers between heliports which provide facilities for passenger processing, refueling, and maintenance. In urban areas, helicopter airlines serve to quickly shuttle business people and the rich within the city or to destinations in the region[1] and often offer regular service to local airports. Helicopter passenger service is used to connect isolated communities in mountains or between islands or bring personnel to at-sea facilities like oil platforms. Although passenger helicopters in use are common models, designs for backpack helicopters to serve as personal transport have been devised along with attempts at human-powered helicopters. When war or unrest disrupts more typical routes, governments use helicopters to evacuate personnel and civilians out of danger.[2] Helicopters also transport government officials and other dignitaries when time is of the essence and travel by motorcade is inappropriate.[3]
Helitours are conducted for the purpose of tourism or sport (heliskiing). Operators may take customers on flights for the purpose of sightseeing[4] or thrill-seeking. Helicopter operating companies will use their fleet to offer a wide variety of services, for business and government as well. Film studios use them to capture panoramic scenes or fast action for motion picture photography. Helicopters also provide aerial photography for mapmaking, surveillance, scientific, and artistic purposes. They are important to the energy industry which needs to explore possible drilling sites.[5]

Let's with those... if there is some sort of view that the writing is trash... well, I welcome you to improve it... if need be, we can set up a user sub page to allow for more fluid editing.--Marcinjeske (talk) 13:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Now I feel old

In the switch from BC to CE & back, did somebody forget there's an 800 yr difference? Somehow, I doubt there were helicopters 2400 years ago... Trekphiler (talk) 14:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Yea, checked the reference. 400 AD/ACE is the right timeframe. Fixed now. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why wikipedia stinks

Whole pages is nothing more than stupid rotor talk. Whoever is doing the editing is doing a poor job.

Most of this stuff is redundant: Just like MOST Wiki articles.

People want to know HOW THEY WORK. Why do you have to go to 'how things work' to find our how the helicopter functions.

There is NO MENTION OF SWASHPLATES in this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashplate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashplate_(helicopter) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.240.149.236 (talk) 20:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)