Talk:Heightism

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--Inconsistency between wikipedia articles-- (Flag this if possible if you know how)

Excerpt from Heightism article: "Moreover, of the 54 U.S. presidential elections only 13 have been won by the shorter candidate, and only 11 times has the shorter candidate received more popular (as opposed to electoral) votes. "

Excerpt from Heights of United States Presidents and presidential candidates. "In reality, for the 46 elections in which the height of which both candidates is known, the taller candidate won 25 times (approximately 54 percent of the time), the shorter candidate won 18 times (approximately 39 percent of the time) and the candidates were the same height three times (about 7 percent of the time)."

Statistically this difference is drastic, the former claim would indicate with 99% certainty that there is a heightism difference, and the latter would indicate with 18% certainty (by my admittedly amateur calculations -- binomial test). --Alex Rohde 2/17/2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.71.84 (talk) 04:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Proposal

It seems to me that all of most of the material in this article could be merged into the "Role of an individual's height" section of the "Human height" article. Thoughts? Bdrasin 15:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't think that the material needs to be merged. Heightism is a distinct social problem that is only tangentially related to human height. If the aggregate height of a population rises, heightism still exists. If the aggregate height of a population shrinks, heightism still exists. The "Role of height" does not seem to capture the issue of heightism. Heightism deserves a separate article.Geoffrey Arnold 13:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heightism?

OK, so whenever I feel bad about my physical or social distinctiveness, I should slap an "-ism" tag on it, just to cause others feel bad about me feeling bad? Wow, way to go. No, I am not small - THEY are heightists! No, I am not black - THEY are racists! No, I am not uneducated - THEY are elitists! No, I am not fat - THEY are weightists! (does that word actually exit? If not, soon it will be...) Now, what's next? Soldiers in the army will be all equal to each other, because they will fear of being declared rankists? You know, lower ranks are often at risk for bullying! Damned rankists - boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew! :-) --194.108.186.216 20:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

So apparently you believe that black people invented the idea of racism because they felt bad about being black? Unless you're joking. Those smileys can be hard to place. Especially the winking ones. What, are they winking sexually or in a purely platonic manner? I can't tell. Who knows?

[edit] Tall women seeking tall men, mistakenly?

It's worth noting that tall women sometimes seek tall men only because they assume (wrongfully) that shorter men won't be interested.

This may be true, but I think we'd need evidence. If this is true than this would be an example of discrimination against tall people, in this case tall women (or more precisely the tall woman's anticipation that she will be discriminated against). I'm also not at all sure that a tall woman making this assumption would be wrong; I think that heighist discrimination against tall women probably really does exist and ought to be discussed somewhere in this article. This paragraph is too subjective and non-encyclopedic however. If someone can provide some sources for this I'd be happy to work on such a section; I'm mostly familliar with anti-short-man discrimination for reasons which you can probably guess ;-)

I think they are rather accurate to think that, most men are intimidated by older women and desire a dominant role in a relationship. Some can only attain this by obvious things such as height. Still, they are mistaken to rule it out, as many men get past this. Tyciol 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say the statement "most men are intimidated by older women" is really true.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 17:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


As the Wiki-user above stated with this discussion, there is a definite need for citations & sources. The discussion of heightism and marriage has additional problems.

Heightism may also be a factor in dating preferences. For most women, the height of a man is a major factor in sexual attractiveness.:

These are weasel words. Needs cited sources or needs to be removed as opinion.

Conversely, studies have shown that women of below average height are more likely to be married and have children than women of above average height.:

If the author is going to refer to a study then, again, the study must be cited. Also, I am unclear as the POV of this section. Is it to discuss discrimination against short people or discrimination against tall people? Granted, there is discrimination towards anyone who is not "of the norm" but this article needs to find a focus. This doesn't mean that both sides aren't worthy of discussion but I find the bouncing between both POVs to be confusing and weakens the argument.

Quantitative studies of woman-for-men personal advertisements have shown strong preference for tall men, with a large percentage indicating that a man significantly below average height was unacceptable.[18] One example is male model Fabio Lanzoni, better known as “Fabio”, who famously appears on romance novel covers and stands 1.98m (6′6″).:

The use of Fabio as proof of women's preference for taller men is strictly anecdotal. There are too many factors regarding why Fabio is on romance covers -- race, body type (weight and/musculature), facial structure, age, etc. -- and people like Danny DeVito or John Goodman are not for it to be a clear example of heightism. RMBJustice 15:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion beyond short man discrimination

I have added a request for expansion; the article right now deals mostly with discrimination against short men. If there ARE no other forms of heightism (I doubt it) then the intro to the article should be revised accordingly. --Bdrasin 02:05, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Anyway, heightism exists in a continuum of forms - which actually occur in practice is another matter. As it says, "however in principle and occasionally in practice it can refer to unfavorable treatment of unusually tall people". The problem is that it gives no examples. And indeed, three of the sections are effectively singling out men to talk about - we could do with more stuff relating to women and children. -- Smjg 12:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I think showing discrimination against tall people would be important too. Think of what Andre the Giant went through. Albeit, that was perhaps moreso due to rotundness as well, but it still happens a lot to beanpoles, if you pardon the slang. Tyciol 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

interesting, you seem to have engaged in a little bit of it there with your use of a word such as 'beanpole'. the level of privilege enjoyed by the 6' 2" CEO's (who are 'desirably' tall because that height is still generally well-proportioned) mentioned in this article does not necessarily carry over to people of uncommonly great height. One must take into account body proportions above heights like 6' 4"...which begin to look more and more awkward. speaking only as someone who is 6 foot 5.5 life is difficult enough for me. clothes, shoes, cars, houses, pretty much everything is not designed for someone even of my height. to find out more about the difficulties faced by uncommonly tall people (also a form of heightism) one need look no further than the list on wikipedia.

List_of_tall_men Gigantism

[edit] Short children at risk for bullying

WRT children, it should be easy to find evidence that shorter children are more at risk of bullying.
WRT anti-tall person discrimination, I'm sure there is some material there somewhere but I haven't been able to find, beyond people complaining about airline seats and difficulties finding clothes. I suspect that anti-tall person discrimination is like anti-white racism (at least in the US): it undoubtedly exists, but is so marginal that it is practicaly unstudied Bdrasin 16:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Are the studies that anybody has found specifically about anti-short heightism or anti-tall heightism? Or do they study heightism in general, with the result being that anti-short heightism predominates within the scope of the study? I guess it depends on what the scope is and the height range of participants in the study. But either way, the number of holes in the article as it stands warrants a POV tag IMO. -- Smjg 17:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Can you suggest what changes would make the article NPOV? I've tried to characterise the data I could find as fairly as I can. What are these "holes", and what can you offer to fill them? Are you saying that the links referenced do not support the conclusions in the article, or are you saying that there is other evidence that is not being considered that you think ought to be included (and if so, please point me to this information)? As for the question of if the studies we are referencing here are biased, and the height ranges of participants in the studies, please see the external documents being cited; in particular you will want to read http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~persico/research/Papers/short.pdf and http://www.essex.ac.uk/ilr/eeeg/Conference1/Harper.pdf, which are both peer-reviewed academic papers. Wikipedia isn't the place to do origional research; all we can do is present the availible evidence as fairly as possible. Bdrasin 22:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The holes are exactly what I already said: we need some content relating to anti-tall discrimination and to heightism targeted towards women and children and not just men. At the moment only sections 1 and 5 border on being gender-neutral, section 2 focuses implicitly on men and sections 3 and 4 focus explicitly on men. And all sections focus on adults rather than children. Anything that meaningfully redresses the balance would be an improvement. At the moment I don't know what this content is, but I'm sure somebody can find some. -- Smjg 10:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Anti-tall discrimination is limited toward women and pretty much focuses on their desirability as a romantic partner. Search for someting about evolution favoring petite or short women and you'll find lots (something here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2190461.stm). Other than that this article agrees with all scientific data on the subject. Tall men aren't discriminated against, which is supported by every study on the subject. As a tall man myself (and someone who studies attraction theory), I can sadly say this is true. The NNPOV warning should be removed immediately.
I'm adding some information re: tall women's romantic desirablilty and a blurb on bullying, which should satify the NNPOV complaint. If you can suggest any attraction theory supporting the contents of the article feel free to link to it here as it is germane to the subject matter.Bdrasin 18:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
As for short children & bullying I am adding information that disputes what has been written thus far. From Morning Edition, Tuesday , September 07, 2004 A new study in the journal Pediatrics finds that, contrary to the prevailing belief, children who are especially short do not have a harder time making friends and adjusting socially than children of average height. NPR's Michelle Trudeau reports. Listen to the segment at this link: [[1]]--RMBJustice 22:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NOSSA Heightism message boards

Persons experiencing heightism can visit the heightism messageboards by NOSSA. //heightism.aimoo.com I also recommend the website shortsupport.org

Does it, despite the name, support people picked on both for being short and for being tall? :-) -- Smjg 12:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I have found some tall-centric websites (tall.org, tallclub.co.uk, tallwomen.org), but they seem to be focused on clothing/airline seat type issues, social events, etc. rather than discrimination. Heightism in practice really seems to be targeted at short people, and most particularly at short men. Bdrasin 16:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Famous tall/short bias

Is it just me, or is having a list of "famous tall men/women" clearly biased? Should there not also be a list of "famous short men/women"?

These lists do exist now.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Femininity versus tallness lack

As a tall woman who has her femininity questioned on at least a weekly basis, I'm somewhat surprized that this doesn't come up in the article. Has anyone found studies relevant to this?

The dating & marriage section covers this somewhat. Does this "questioning of femininity" come up in other situations?

[edit] Height and intelligence relationship

What do you guys think would be the cause of this? I think perhaps it might be somewhat related to the observed lack of self esteem. Those who lack esteem might not be motivated to learn as much, thinking themself tiny and stupid. I doubt it would be much due to brain size, as guys like Einstein often had small brains. The larger brain-intelligence (and lifespan) link is more based upon RATIO of brain mass to body mass, not upon total brain size. Possibly also, would be a bias in classrooms. If you're short, perhaps you'd have trouble seeing the board over tall people's heads and be embarassed to bring it up, much like nearsighted people who are embarassed to get glasses. Also, maybe teachers would not call upon short people as often? Tyciol 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Intelligence is not a measure of how much one knows but of how fast one learns, thus intelligence is not directly related to being able to see the black board, though low self-esteem my be related --Oxinabox1 01:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, intelligence is definitely distinct from knowledge.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Anne Case and Christina Paxson's research ever go under academic review? If so, I've never seen it.

I find the idea that shorter people are intrinsically less intelligent very interesting but ridiculous. It's no different than similar "scientific" studies that were done against Blacks, decades ago. Plus, I understand that Case and Paxson are economist, rather than scientists. And finally, I distinctly remember this research being done well before Case and Paxson came along. However, back then, the data was used to discredit the IQ test. Some researchers realized that the IQ tests correlated more closely with height than it did with income or grades. So they labeled the IQ test more of a "height indicator" than an "intelligence test" (thus ridiculing it as "junk science"). Now we've come full circle. Now, the same concept is used to say that the IQ test is sound, but it's just that smarter people tend to be taller.Geoffrey Arnold 04:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heightism in politics

Initially, both Hitler and Dollfuss were the results of democratic elections. Both became chancellors, but once in office they overthrew the parliament and became dictators. So I do not think they should be listed in the non-electoral column. 62.143.202.16 08:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What no Danny DeVito?

I'm surprised that Danny DeVito isn't in the "Heightism in the media" section. Not only is he much shorter* than Tom Cruise and Michael J Fox, he has been equally - if not more - successful.

Shouldn't we, ahem, "big him up" a little?

-Danny DeVito 5'0"
-Tom Cruise 5'7"
-Michael J. Fox 5'4"

PS. At least in a school environment, unusually tall children are also bullied.
138.243.129.4 02:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, unusually tall children, particularly boys are rarely bullied because they are often much stronger than their peers. It may be a different story for girls though because female bullying is often social and not physical.

[edit] Citation needed

"Taller people may also have a tendency to be awkward, clumsy and ungainly. In more recent years, especially among young people, this has led to an increase in these people being labelled "creepy."" -Cite the creepy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.69.14.35 (talk) 02:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Disadvantage of Tallness

This section has no purpose. It is merely opinion and needs to be removed.--RMBJustice 22:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. It gives the impression that short people have a thing against tall people, so much so they have to include the "disadvantages of tallness". --Triedandtested 00:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's valid 82.35.208.43 01:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have not read that section since it is no longer in the article. However I am unusually tall. I do get hostility and discrimination from short people. I also get name-calling about my height (although seldom from short people probably because of the "if you live in glass houses dont throw stones" principal). Some power-orientated people appear to see unusually tall men as a threat to their dominance and are very hostile. There is also the problem of finding clothes that fit. I, and every other unusually tall person I have ever heard of, do not intend to have children, as they would suffer. Peoples comments on the internet suggest that young men in particular find being unusually tall very distressing and disturbing. I wish there was some systematic medical screening and treatment that had prevented me becoming unusually tall - my life would be very much happier and very different. 80.2.193.67 (talk) 14:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Absurdist humor?

Is this article an exercise in some sort of absurdist humor, or is it a legitimate proposal that is expected to be taken seriously? It's rather difficult to decipher, especially because the article itself seems to have been written by men who describe themselves as short. Perhaps the more pertinent question is whether an article based upon amateur sociology and pop psychology is truly encyclopedic...

This has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. Geoffrey Arnold 04:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heightism is Real and Deserves a Separate Article

It is obvious that to most people, particularly those with less education, taller is better. This is due to the fact that in early stages of human evolution a bigger, taller male could best protect and provide for his family unit or tribe. Also, this stems from the fact that at early stages of childhood, every important individual in that child's life who provides for, protects, and has authority over them is bigger than them. These two provide an ingrained psychological mindset that taller is better, even if extreme implications arise if taken to the max. This needs to be addressed in an encyclopedic manner

Think about Genevieve Bujold. She's rather petite (163cm), yet she has insane respect. She has the presence (if you don't know who Genevieve Bujold is, think Yoda - same case there). Respect is not related to height, you have to gain it yourself, and trust me, crying "discrimination, discrimination" will NOT gain you any. Yes, some people may look down to small people, but well, it's not "heightism," it's a part of life. Starter of this wikipedia entry has certainly too much time on his hands. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.108.186.216 (talk) 10:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
I don't think anyone posting here is posting about heightism in hopes of gaining respect. I think the purpose of this article is to discuss a very well documented prejudice. 70.188.226.149 22:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
You are talking about a short woman though. It is most often times short men that have the problems. A short woman will be called petite, a short man will be called a shrimp.

[edit] Appropriate References?

The last paragraph under "Height discrimination legislation" gives untitled references 33,34, and 35. These references lead to message boards discussing heightism. Although, technically, if someone shares the views discussed in this paragraph on a message board, it is correct that "some people think that it is the employee's job to grow tall..." However, I question the appropriateness of the references. Kludger 20:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

I tagged the second paragraph of the Legislation section for some weasel words - it looks like much of the info came from a discussion forum. While the forum covered a study on height and income, education, and other factors, phrases like "Some think that discriminating short people would motivate short people to grow taller and smarter by having good nutrition and exercise" sounds a lot like either condensing the article or original research. Jjacobsmeyer 10:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Little Man Syndrome

Is it worth putting in something about "Little Man Syndrome"/"Little Napolian Syndrome", its not an actualy syndrome, but rather the over agressiveness that shorter men seem to have with regard to tall men, as if they have "something to prove"? 81.149.82.243 11:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napolean_complex 81.149.82.243 11:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bonaparte example

The changing of Napoleon's height and the deletion of "was slightly above average height for the time he lived." has left that section not making any sense, and indeed that sentence as a fragment. The Napoleon I of France article has a section on this topic, which seems to lean towards the 5'2" view, but perhaps it's a bad example to use if the facts are in doubt. Alai 23:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] asians and intelligence

maybe we should add a few words about the asians. Those people are short, but they are all smart. what do you think that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.226.195.85 (talk) 23:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

No as that would be a generalisation and so might be considered racist. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Short people and evil

Has anybody besides me noticed the tendency for short people to become evil tyrants in fiction? To name a few General Red, Lord Farquaad, Plankton and Invader Zim. It appears to have become something of a stereotype in the media as the result of diminutive despots in history such as Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and of course Napoleon. Should this be mentioned in the article? --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't Hitler 5'8"? I think that was average height for a German back then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.10.111 (talk) 22:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Metrication needed

There are still quite a lot of imperial measurements in this article without corresponding metric units. I would do the necessary conversions but I don't have the time, so if anyone else cares to...Wikischolar1983 (talk) 12:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)