Talk:Hecate

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[edit] Origin of name?

What is the etymology of the name Hekate/Hecate? I mostly find the meaning "she who works from afar" and variations thereof, but how was this derived? Could someone add some information about the etymology in the article? Thanks muchly. :) 67.168.59.171 07:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

If you refuse to build any ideas on any "etymology", you'll save yourself from many delusions. --Wetman 00:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Appears to be [fem. of hekatos "far-shooting."] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Hecate --nonregistered user, ButtercupSaiyan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.122.13.186 (talk) 00:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Festivals

A "citation needed" link appears at the end of this passage, however, the information is clearly cited as Ruickbie (2004). I have therefore removed this request.

[edit] Trivia

Who on earth confused Hecate with Trivia? I really, really want the reference work that makes that mistake. Trivia is Artemis/Diana, if she's not an independent deity. Why do I get the feeling that this article was written by a Wiccan and not a Classicist? Geogre 02:46, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia is the reference work that makes that mistake now. Thanks for using your expertise to clear up the confusion. You could have just ranted about it on the talk page without changing anything.

I myself must defer to the authority of 1911 Britannica, at least until an expert comes and corrects matters. Vivacissamamente 23:13, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm generally a proponent of 'Pagan' Religions, but honestly this article should be renamed 'Hecate (Wicca)' since it has very little to say about Hecate the Greek mythological figure. Robrecht 2 July 2005 16:57 (UTC)
So edit. Add referenced material. I plan to. Wiccan material should be moved to the end, in its own section. --Nantonos 22:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

1911 Britannica is out of date in terms of information on Hecate. Sarah Iles Johnston is considered one of the foremost modern historians of Hecate and in her two books (referenced in further readings) she traces Hecate's origins from Turkey into Greece and her development as a sorceress goddess. I changed some of the main entry to accommodate her research which she properly references in her two books. Also, I didn't erase anythign already on the page as it seemed accurate, just moved some stuff arouond.

Also what is with these references to the snake and Hecate holding one. I know of no references to snakes being scared to Hecate, and those images are probaly of Hecate holding a rope. (unsigned, but comments above added by User:Dorcia)

Please sign your comments with four tildes (~) in a row to add your name and date automaticaly. DreamGuy 21:31, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

I have clarified that Hecate is not Trivia, among assorted other tidying-up. However, I have also come across statements such as The Romans gave Hekate the title Trivia, the Latin equivalent of the Greek Trioditis. on the otherwise careful and well-referenced theoi.com for example. --Nantonos 15:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks for all the jibes about Wiccans. A little correction is in order here. Hekate was identified with Artemis/Diana, particularly in later antiquity when she was identified with a number of other goddesses as well. According to Sarah Iles Johnston "There is evidence for Hekate's identification with Artemis as early as the fifth century (A. Suppl. 676, fr. 158; E. Phoen. 110)." (Hekate Soteira p. 31, note 8) Certainly in the Chaldaean Oracles and later works she was syncretised with a number of goddesses. (Hekate Soteira p. 141)
One of the most frequent epithets for Hekate in Greek is Trioditis (Hekate Soteira p. 24) meaning "triple crossroads". The Romans used the Latin equivalent Trivia, and erected statues to her at major intersections.
"You see Hecate’s faces turned in three directions so she can protect the triple crossroads." - Ovid, Fasti 1.141
"I have seen Sapaeans [a Thrakian tribe] and your snow dwellers, Haemus [mountain in Thrake], offer the guts of dogs to Trivia [Hekate]." - Ovid, Fasti 1.389
A brief introduction to the Goddess Trivia can be found here.
The "road" symbolism (Trivia = 3 roads) may derive from the Thessalian goddess Enoida ("of the wayside, of the crossroads") who became identified with Hekate, Artemis, Selene, Bendis, Persephone and Brimo. Little is known about Enoida except that she was a "goddess of the road", a chthonic goddess probably concerned with magic and the underworld. In most places where this name appears it is actually an epithet for Hecate. (Sarah Iles Johnston, Hekate Soteira p. 24 note 10)
Also, Hecate was primarily associated with dogs, but also with snakes: "...round her horrible serpents twined themselves among the oak boughs, and there was the gleam of countless torches; and sharply howled around her the hounds of hell." (Appolonius Rhodius, Argonautica). She was often depicted with three heads: dog, snake and horse, or dog, horse and bear, or dog, snake and lion.
An example of all this symbolism can be found in the Greek magical papyri:
Come to me, O Beloved Mistress, Three-faced Selene; [...] Three-headed, You're Persephone, Megaira, Allekto, Many-Formed, who arm Your Hands With Dreaded, Murky Lamps, who shake Your Locks Of fearful Serpents on Your Brow, who sound The Roar of Bulls out from Your Mouths, whose Womb Is decked out with the Scales of Creeping Things, With Pois'nous Rows of Serpents down the Back, Bound down Your Backs with Horrifying Chains [...] Your Ankle is Wolf-shaped, Fierce Dogs are dear To You, wherefore they call You Hekate, Many-named, Mene, cleaving Air just like Dart-shooter Artemis, Persephone, Shooter of Deer, night shining, triple-sounding, Triple-headed, triple-voiced Selene Triple-pointed, triple-faced, triple-necked, And Goddess of the Triple Ways, who hold Untiring Flaming Fire in Triple Baskets, And You who oft frequent the Triple Way And rule the Triple Decades, unto me Who'm calling You be gracious [...] Mother of Gods And Men, and Nature, Mother of All Things, For You frequent Olympos, and the broad And boundless Chasm You traverse. Beginning And End are You, and You Alone rule All. [...] Goddess of Crossroads, O Nether and Nocturnal, and Infernal, Goddess of Dark, Quiet and Frightful One, O You who have Your Meal amid the Graves, Night, Darkness, Broad Chaos: [...] You keep Kerberos in Chains, with Scales Of Serpents are You dark, O You with Hair Of Serpents, Serpent-girded, who drink Blood, Who bring Death and Destruction, and who feast On Hearts, Flesh Eater, who devour Those Dead Untimely, and You who make Grief resound And spread Madness, come to my Sacrifices, And now for me do You fulfil this Matter.
(translated E. N. O'Neil; from Hans Dieter Betz (ed.) The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation pp. 90-92)
I have reproduced this last quote at such length partly because it's such a good demonstration of the kind of syncretisation that was actually quite common in the ancient world, very unlike the common perception nowadays of a rational, ordered pantheon of deities who all represented a clearly-defined aspect of civic life. If you're going to do justice to Greek and Roman mythology, prepare for complexity and contradiction... Thanks, Your friendly Wiccan, Fuzzypeg☻ 22:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shakespeare

Shakespeare mentions Hecate in Macbeth (text is here). Hecate is in Act III, Scene V and Act IV, Scene I. However, considering that Hecate's lines in these scenes do not fit in tone with the rest of the play, some people think that Shakespeare didn't actually write them, but they were inserted in later. Can someone research up on this and add it to the article? Bbhtryoink 01:39, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

And lo, it is done! The Singing Badger 01:43, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Cruft

A load of half-digested material has been dumped into this formerly careful account. I have tagged some statements for citations but it looks hopeless. --Wetman 22:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I found citations for some (if they happened to be correct), added quotes against others (where they are commonly cited but likely incorrect) and added some more {{Fact}} tagging to the rest.--Nantonos 15:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Format

Can someone pull the layout together, please? I'm bored with encountering doctrinaire troglodytes over layouts, myself, but this is just not good enough at present. I'd add a "clean-up" sticker, if I were the sticker type.--Wetman 07:03, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I have done some cleanup, collecting together the references for example. There still needs to be some merging of attributes into the representations section. --Nantonos 15:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NeoPagan NPOV

I have pulled the contentious "Most sects that include worship of Hecate are considered cults, even by Neopagan standards. Such sects often encourage experimentation with the paranormal." and changed 'sect' to 'group' in the remaining part of that paragraph, because of NPOV. I also pulled the inflamatory "In some cases animal sacrifices have been documented, typically taking place on the last day of a month. Animal sacrifices have included the sacrifice of goats, dogs, and chickens, which has been documented by police authorities and is often mistaken with satanic practices. Animal sacrifices is considered in the United States to be animal cruelty and is subsequently illegal, regardless of religious faith." and invite whoever posted that to put it back if they have a citeable source. --Nantonos 14:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I pulled out the reference to the Celtic festival of Samhain. There is no scholarly basis for that statement, and until it can be proved that there is an actual connection, I hope that will not be put up again. Also, the entire section about emblems seems to be mostly unsubstantiated. I hesitate to remove it completely, but I wouldn't mind if someone did so. Again, until it can be proved that there is an actual, documented connection between many (not all) of those emblems, then I would recommend deleting that section until further information has been discovered, complete with corroboration. Ryan 10:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Well done. --Wetman 13:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This entire section needs a BIG rewrite. The role of Hekate in feminist witchcraft is completely missing, as is the association most neopagans have with her as a "Crone" goddess. Additionally, what's with the "Big Bad" associations? Wicca, particularly, doesn't have any concept of Hekate as a Goddess who can be invoked to punish those you don't like. She is mentioned as a Goddess who can be invoked to bind someone, but she is mostly considered to be Keeper of the Mysteries and analogous to the High Priestess tarot card (see Vivienne Crowley, Wicca : the Old Religion in the New Age, pp. 179-80) -- Maz

[edit] "Wilderness"

"... originally a goddess of the wilderness" It's not "wilderness" if you live there. What is the thought buried in this expression, still in the opening of the article? --Wetman 16:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm guessing exactly what wilderness implies. people live in a village, there's forest around it. She was a goddess of area lying outside of towns, places not domesticated. it can still be wilderness if you live there. i don't see a problem with it at all. (Anonymous)
The forest around even the smallest Greek settlement, though beyond the reach of agriculture, was not "wilderness". There were many deities in those utterly familiar woodlands, to be sure: of trees and groves, of water sources and rivers, of mountaintops, caves and clefts. Would Potnia theron, "mistress of the animals", or "Mountain Mother" be goddesses of the "wilderness"? Or Artemis? Perhaps so. --Wetman 18:30, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Modern character interpretations

"Hecate provided friendship to the goddess Persephone who was newly arrived in the Underworld. Thankful for her friendship with his grieving wife, Hades honored Hecate by making her a permanent guest in the spirit world, allowing her to come and go as she wished." I moved this here: is there any psychological interpretation in surviving myth or ritual to suggest this, or is it from Xena Warrior Princess? A myth justifying Hades displacement of Hecate would be useful. --Wetman 20:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Hecate: Ancient, Powerful, Unconquerable" section

I've toned down the assertive rant to make this encyclopedic, and I've deleted the contentious supposed parallels with Virgin Mary. Material like this needs to be brought in as a report of what has been published on the subject. The survival of aspects of Hecate cult in peasant religion and Wicca does need to be reintroduced.--Wetman 19:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yew berries and hallucinations

The article currently states that yew berries (the non-poisonous arils) can cause hallucinations if prepared correctly. The source cited may be "The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants: Ethnopharmacology and Its Applications" by Christian Rätsch [1], or other books and articles by the same author (in German or English), or any of a number of books ("Plants of the Gods" [2], "Witchcraft Medicine" [3]) written in collaboration with other authors. Unfortunately, none of these books/artices/etc are searchable on Amazon.

Rätsch is an ethnopharmacologist. According to this interview, his doctorate is in "Native American cultures", not any kind of medicine or pharmacology. I point this out not as an insult to the man, but only because I have been unable to find any reliable source for the claim that yew berries can be used as hallucinogens. According to the medical information I've been able to find, even the toxic parts of the yew plants do not cause hallucinations. I have found no indication that there are any ill or unusual effects of ingesting just the arils (no seeds/leaves/etc). Even Erowid has nothing on it. Without access to the source, I have no idea what is meant by "prepared correctly", but I can't find evidence that any preparation of yew would cause hallucinations short of one that involved lacing the berries with LSD. Are there any objections to removing this claim from the article? - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 02:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just now searched "yew taxus hallucinogen" at JSTOR and got no hits. So I'd not object. --Wetman 16:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theophoric names

According to the intro section, amongst the Carians of Anatolia was "the only region where theophoric names are attested". That's obviously incorrect, as you should see if you follow the link. I don't know what was intended, but this statement needs to be either revised or removed. Fuzzypeg☻ 21:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it refers only to theophoric names derived from "Hekate"? I seem to remember reading something about this in... was it von Rudloff's book? If I have the urge to procrastinate later, I may try to track this one down. - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 22:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resemblance to Statue of Liberty

Is there any connection anyone knows about relating Hecate to the Statue of Liberty instead of Libertas? The pictures on this page both bear a striking resemblance, or maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist and don't really think of the S of L as a "gift" in the kindest way, more like an inside joke from the French. Hecate, the goddess of crossroads, borders, city walls (New York harbor??) Shown holding a torch in the drawing, shown with a crown of spikes in the sculpture? Is anyone else seeing this? I don't see any parallels drawn on this page, the Statue of Liberty page, or Bartholdi. Anyone want to do some digging? Keeper76 21:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The spikes represent the solar crown: see Sol Invictus. Hekate is chthonic, not solar. No possible connection in Bartholdi's intent, which is what counts. --Wetman 06:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I sincerely appreciate your response, Wetman, and as a newbie to Wiki-world, I will most definitely refrain from the ridiculous editing that seems to bring strife (rightfully) to loyalists and self proclaimed "addicts" like yourself and your prolific (dare I say religious?) editing. On a side note, I very much enjoyed your thoughtfully prepared userpage ( even though I politely and completely disagree with many of your leanings), as a good example for my own (not yet created) userpage. But I'm working on it. To the point at hand, when I said "spikes" I meant it rather facetiously, I realize they were publicly intended to portray "sun" not "earth". It's just striking to me how much the Roman statue looks like our Lady Baywatcher, and how the 1880 drawing by Monsieur Mallarme carries a torch, and wondering if you or anyone else knows of any connections/scandals/conspiracies worth mentioning from Bartholdi's era? Just wondering, (rather unimportantly to most probably), whether Bartholdi's charge was as golden as it appeared...even the part of "we'll give you this wonderful gift, but first build (and pay for) a base, and somewhere to put it. Somewhere GRAND..." has become suspect to me. What was his political affiliation compared to the American presidency at the time of the centennial? I'm afraid I just don't have the knowledge of the era or the mythology that I need. Thanks for indulging my overly parenthetical, and overly superlative post... Keeper76 01:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)