Talk:Heber Jentzsch/Archive 1

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Heber success stories

There's a success story about Heber claiming to have gotten rid of "Radiation" that he got in Nevada experiments. Somehow I can't find it.

There is another success story that Heber helped police catch a criminal. --Tilman 16:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Undocumented and Unlikely

Sorry but I just ran into this page and registered so I could propose an edit to it. It says that at the age of 15 Mr. Jentzsch was cured of radiation with the Purification Rundown. As he was born in 1935 that means he was cured in 1950. The Purification Rundown was released 30 years later. As there is no copy of the supposed article that states this occured, I want to delete this reference.

Okay - another one. The citation for Yvonne Gillham being Mr. Jentzsch's wife is original research by Mark Plummer, AKA "Warrior," who has put together what he claimsto be copies of Scientology ethics orders, and he comments that Yvonne is Heber's wife. That is not documentation, and certainly should not be part of the bio of a living person. Uklady2007 18:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC) UK Lady

I'm the one who added the first one, and it is sourced. However I really fucked up with the language, and with the date. This is an excerpt of the article:
The Rev. Jentzsch's second formative experience was his own.

At 15, he believed he was dying from radiation burns caused by the nuclear
testing in Yucca Flats, Nev. He says he was exposed while turning hay in a
farm near Farmington. Although experts say there has never been a recorded
case of skin burn in Utah from the tests, the Rev. Jentzsch says it changed
his life.

"I had blisters all over my body," he said. ``The doctors said, `We'll
save your life and then we'll work on your face.' "
The Rev. Jentzsch says he put cocoa butter and boric acid packs on his face
for three days every half-hour. He says many children downwind of the Nevada
Test Site died from cancer, including several friends from Farmington.

The pollutants and chemicals from the radiation were in his body for years,
until he was cleansed by the "purification process" of Scientology.

``The fatty tissues of the body tend to retain chemicals and drugs," says
the Rev. Jentzsch. L. Ron Hubbard's teachings called for a cure of combined
vitamins, exercise and saunas.

For the Rev. Jentzsch, the process took five hours a day for 39 days. After
that, he felt free from the radiation that had plagued his body for decades.

"Scientology literally saved my life," he says.
About the second one: are you claiming that Heber wasn't married to Yvonne? --Tilman 19:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
No. I'm just saying the document cited is original research and doesn't belong as a citation. Uklady2007 19:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)UKLady2007
I've added another source. Although Mark is an excellent source, he has a good memory for names and connection. However, you misunderstand "original research". If an expert researches something, and is quoted by Wikipedia, that isn't "original research". --Tilman 20:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

More bio details

From the article in the section above, more details:

The Rev. Jentzsch attended Weber College, then a two-year school. He
graduated from the University of Utah in 1959 with a degree in
communications. Shortly after graduation he was drafted. In the Army he
served primarily as an entertainer, singing in the Army chorus at Fort Meade
in Maryland.

After he was discharged, the Rev. Jentzsch -- full of youthful ambition --
headed for Hollywood to embark on a singing career.

He wound up in Las Vegas instead, singing, acting, doing stage work. It was
there he found Scientology.

I'll add some of it later when I have time. --Tilman 07:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Also described as a former actor in the following article: AP (1988): "Judge Jails Scientology Head For Suspected Fraud, Tax Evasion"
  • "Spanish television showed Jentzsch, a former Hollywood actor, giving the V sign for victory in a court passageway during a break in his questioning."
And Panorama (1998): "The Road to Total Freedom"
  • "Jentzsch is a former actor who had a bit part in "Paint Your Wagon"."
Raymond Hill 21:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


Spain Arrest

The way this section reads, people could get the idea that the charges were valid.

I don't get what the point is of bringing this up at all unless it is to infer that there was some wrong doing, which was completely vindicated in the trial.

The reference is Associated Press/April 11, 2002 "A Spanish court on Thursday acquitted the American leader of the Church of Scientology of conspiracy and other charges, ending a case dating back to 1988," and "On March 22, the prosecutor sent the court notice that, in light of the 15 acquittals, the original indictment 'now lacks content.' But the prosecutor recommended the court only shelve the case, allowing the possibility it could be reopened at some point in the future. However, on Thursday the court announced that, with the indictment dropped the best way to end the case was to acquit Jentzsch."

Based on that I don't see any reason to have this section in the bio at all. Uklady2007 02:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree: it's a pretty significant event in the lifetime of an individual I would say, although I question that it deserves a specific section. Raymond Hill 03:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Raymond Hill. I think that's a point well taken. But I feel that the way it is presented infers guilt or wrongdoing of which he was completely exonerated, and I feel this violates the policies on how to deal with the biographies of living people.Uklady2007 06:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's a bit more on this subject: Agence France Press reported on April 11, 2002: "The international church’s president, Reverend Heber Jentzsch, said in Los Angeles that the Madrid Provincial Court had Thursday dismissed all charges against him of illegal association that were originally brought in 1988." "The church official was originally charged along with 15 other people connected to the church, but charges against them were dropped in December, leading to his eventual acquittal." "The Madrid court also ordered that a one million dollar bond deposited by the court for his release in 1988 be returned along with interest which would nearly double the original amount, the church said."

Based on this, I am going to modify the entry on this point.Uklady2007 17:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it, that was pure propaganda, especially the scurrilous text about the bond helping to finance the new org. (There are new Orgs in other countries where there weren't arrests) --Tilman 22:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Tilman, I find your communication combative. I would like to try to keep our communication on a more friendly plain, if that's possible. See my comment below to Raymond Hill. I don't agree with the way this is written. How do we come to some more equitable agreement on this?Uklady2007 23:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I felt the same way, but wanted to find this AFP article to be sure. Just found it at Rick Ross's web site, see here. Sure enough, it doesn't ressemble to what was added by Uklady2007. Also, the fact that he flew Spain shouldn't have been removed. Raymond Hill 22:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is one source that states that he was told not to leave the country after being released from jail: Fortune: "Follow-ups: Shamed in Spain". But it doesn't tell the circumstances in which he left the country (legally or not?) Raymond Hill 23:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Alright, according to this source, it would seem H. Jentzsch left Spain legally, once his passport was returned to him three months later. So you were right to remove the "jumped bail" passage. Raymond Hill 23:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Raymond Hill. By the way, its true that there is an article on the Rick Ross site, but that's not the AFP wire. I found the wire in Nexus. I searched for "Heber Jentzsch aquitted" in Nexus between the dates 2001 and 2003 and that's how I found it. I noticed some of the citations used in Wikipedia are not available as URLs, and thought it would therefore be accepable to cite it. That's the article that states the money was returned. By the way, I never said that the money that was returned was used to fund the new church -- just that the IAS sponsored it. But I don't have anything to cite on that -- just that I attended the Scientology events when it was announced. I'll look for a citation. Now, I still don't think the way the statement is included here is correct. It is quite skewed to list out the charges and title it "Spain Arrest" when Jentzsch was completely exonerated. Uklady2007 23:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello Uklady, of course the money was returned - thats normal in every country. That the IAS sponsored something isn't relevant. The whole tone of "bad times and then stunning victory" is inappropriate. "held in jail in under very harsh conditions for four months" is uncited and also false, it was only three weeks.[1] And jail is always "bad", so "harsh conditions" is relative. More likely, it was still better than in an american jail. (I have often noticed that europeans held in US jails first fight their extradition, and after a few days / weeks, they change their mind). --Tilman 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Btw, the real reason for aquittal is that 1) scientology paid off all the spanish victims, so they retracted their complaints, thus no more witnesses. 2) Heber Jentzsch is responsible for nothing in the organisation. But since 1) is not properly cited and 2) is "original research", we can't include it in wikipedia. --Tilman 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I've edited it to state just the facts. Btw, Tilman, with reference to the Wikipedia:Civility general suggestions, "Apply peer pressure (voicing displeasure each time rudeness or incivility happens)" I find these remarks rude and uncivil, so I am calling that to your attention.Uklady2007 09:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
First, specify exactly what remark(s) were offensive. Second, you have once again put the wrong "four months" part (it was three weeks); and the part about the bail with interest, which is irrelevant. Third, you put many spell errors including the last name of Heber himself. I suggest that in the future, you rather make suggestions here (with sources), and let people add it for you. This would bring you a higher satisfaction than doing some work and having it reverted because of low quality. You'll be positively surprised that even scientology critics like me will listen to your suggestions, to make texts more neutral according to WP:NPOV. Fourth, don't sign in definitions, only in discussion pages.--Tilman 19:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. That's a much better entry now. Uklady2007 22:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Acknowledgements to Heber

I wonder if I should add a section about people who thanked him:

  1. Journalist Alexander Cockburn considers Heber to be his friend [2]
  2. William Arnold, author of the highly fictional Frances Farmer biography Shadowland, thanked Heber Jentzsch and CCHR [3]

--Tilman 09:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No polygamists are Mormons

A Mormon is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has no practiced polygamy since the 1800's and any member of the Mormon Church found practicing polygamy will be excommunicated and, therefore, will no longer be a member of that church.

Besides that, there is no evidence that Heber was ever a Mormon. If you can provide a reputable source to that effect, I would be happy to acquiesce. --Lukeatomic 04:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned that he could not have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's possible (though unlikely) that he may have been a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or another obscure group. The Jade Knight 11:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Your text is correct, but it doesn't sound very good, and is too long. Sadly, I can't come up with anything better. Isn't there a simple word that directly describes these mormon polygamist groups? --Tilman 18:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Not that I can think of. Besides which, unless we have direct evidence of which denomination he belonged to, it's original research to try to guess his membership. For all we know his father may have been a member of the FLDS but Heber may have reverted back to the mainstream LDS. Who knows? The only term we can use to unite all the denominations is "Mormon", just as "Christian" covers all the denominations of that faith. -- ChrisO 18:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


from the 1992 article:

Carl took his first polygamous wife while living in Salt Lake City on
Lincoln Street near Liberty Park. As wives and children were added, the
family moved to a large house on Holladay Boulevard. Finally, however,
Carl's salary as an electrical engineer was inadequate to support the
growing family so they moved to Farmington, where they could have several
homes on the same farm.

The whole family continued to attend the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints even after notice of Carl Jentzsch's excommunication
appeared in the local paper. When the bishop refused to allow Pauline's
children to be baptized, however, they began to hold worship services at
home.

So maybe he wasn't part of the FDLS. He was a polygamist by his own wish. --Tilman 20:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, he cannot be called LDS if he was excommunicated. Perhaps the article should state that he self-identified as Latter-day Saint, even though he was excommunicated? The Jade Knight 02:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Your text looks better now, thank you. --Tilman 08:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)