Talk:Heavy metal in Muslim majority countries

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 9 May 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.


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[edit] Move the topics back

This is ridiculous, first you have to discuss the topics in their own talk page, contact the contributers of them, etc. You can't just do everything you feel like, first you tried to delete them all now you redirect them to here? Please stop. -- - K a s h Talk | email 21:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MErge with Iranian metal

The content is already the same. The Iranian metal article has in fact little content and is presented without much context. It is more suitable to capture its information here. Spearhead 21:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

..Iranian countries?! you mean Islamic? I oppose. What do you mean "without much context"? It's a country's music scene. It doesn't need to be part of anything. It should be expanded instead of merged. -- - K a s h Talk | email 21:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I meant to say Iranian metal. Spearhead 07:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

They should definitely be merged. The scene itself is non-notable except that it is in an Islamic nation which presents its own problem. marnues 02:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge. The movement is notable as a whole under the label of "in Islamic countries". +Johnson 07:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Where's the "Venezualian metal" page (125 bands according to metal archives)? Where's the "Belarus metal" page (109 bands according to metal archives)? Where's the "Puerto Rican metal" page (71 bands according to metal archives)? There aren't any such pages. There isn't even a page for countries better known for playing heavy metal such as Finland or Germany. There is therefore no reason to have an "Iranian metal" page, but we can get a good article if we merge it here, the issues faced by bands in Islamic countries are important and deserve an article. Individual countries is another matter. --IronChris | (talk) 21:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Where an article does or does not exist, doesn't justify other article's existance. I suggest deletion of both for now - K a s h Talk | email 23:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chill!

Hey Deizio, if you read this, I think this time it calls for it. Kush, please see WP:CHILL. +Johnson 07:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

With much love to Spearhead and all fellow WP:HMM members, I propose that this page should be nominated for deletion. I appreciate the good, nay great faith that went into its creation, but it's an arbitrary grouping and an unnecessary compromise. If regional scenes are demonstrably individually notable, then excellent. If not, they should be deleted until such time that they make the grade. Non-notable, unrelated scenes in various countries cannot be combined to make a notable article, this is no more appropriate than Heavy metal in countries with large reserves of fresh water. WP:CHILL all the way. See the talk pages of constituent articles for thoughts on them... Deizio 20:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

the intention I have here is the create a generic article about heavy metal in Islamic countries. Currently it is just some stuff that I gathered from other pages that was ill-placed or isn't worth an article by itself. Perhaps the article can be moved to something even more general such as heavy metal acceptance or something. Anyway the broad idea is the actually prevent articles about regional scenes, but cover general issues concerned to all such scenes into this article. However, some one knowledgeable about such issues should step in and write it into a decent album. One problem with most metal genre related articles is that they focus only on Western scenes, where freedom of speech and such is quite common - in countries like Iran, Indonesia, etc etc it is much harder to establish a metal scene. Any thoughts however for improvement are more than welcome. Maybe that Kash dude could step in and show us some insights here, instead of complaining. Spearhead 20:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
They do not have anything in common as the theme of their music is not about Islam. It's like having a "Heavy Metal in Christian countries" and putting Burzum on it. If you know what Burzum stands for, you wouldn't do such a thing. It's the same for Iranian bands. Iran has already got it's own music pages which this can incorporate in to. So delete for now. -- - K a s h Talk | email 08:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is not about musical themes, rather its acceptance and as such is more political/social. Spearhead 15:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
You said it yourself Kash, "recently a friend of mine was sent to jail for a month and had to pay £2000 (Thats almost a working year's worth of money for students in Iran where it is 2,500,000 rials) for playing loud (metal) music in his car (in Iran)". That's what this article should be about. Nothing to do with bands that play music inspired by Islam or anything. As such there would be no problem including Burzum in "metal in Christian countries", except that there is no such article and none is needed since metal is more widely accepted or at the least tolerated in those countries. --IronChris | (talk) 16:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I see there are two separate issues here:
  1. Music in Islamic culture (an article that already exists I believe)
  2. Acceptance of loud music in societies (which has nothing to do with Islamic countries)
Firstly, not all Islamic countries have suppression on freedom of speech and not all non-Islamic countries have free speech. So, the association is very fishy. Also, heavy metal does not necessarily get seen as socially unacceptable because of the lyrics. Some societies do not accept loud music, which yet again has very little to do with religion. This article mentions Pakistan. However, Pakistan arguably has a bigger metal scene than India. In Bangladesh, another arguably Islamic country, metal music is the mainstream music right now. So, I will support any move to delete this page and move its contents to relevant locations mentioned above. (On a separate note, Christian state is not as well defined as Islamic state, since most of the so-called Christian world is not composed of practising Christians. There are also very few countries that constitutionally are Christian and implement Christian laws. So an article on "ABCD in Christian countries" does not make sense in the first place for the completely different reason that "Chrstian countries" is an undefineable entity!)
67.68.153.43 17:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Well you said it all well. Anyway categorization should not be used on this matter, same as it wouldn't be with "Christian countries", "hindu countries", "budhist countries", etc religion should not be used on such matters; it is same with "Islamic countries" to me. It's a title that should not be used to label nations. There is a lot more to these countries than Islam, and much of the focus of this music is on this topic. -- - K a s h Talk | email 19:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

"other nations without separation of church and government"? That sounds like the writer has an agenda to me, because it implies that if other religions were involved with government, such as Christianity (which was where the "separation" issue originated), the same bans would exist in those countries, and therefore attacks religion in general.

"Perhaps the article can be moved to something even more general such as heavy metal acceptance or something" GeorgeBills 08:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The debate

I wil admit that I'm coming round to the idea of inclusion for this. My reasons to delete it haven't really changed, but as a pragmatic approach to classifying wikipedia information it does make some sense. I'm not sure yet... but I'll be keeping an eye on the AfD and this page in the meantime. In any case, if there were truly some documented cases of arrests or other serious problems caused by playing or listening to metal music in countries whose Islamic countries, whose laws and customs are dictated by Islam, I'd be on board. Deizio 17:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I will be really surprised if the official reason of arrest was "listening to metal music". What can and very likely does happen are objections to the lyrical material or objection to the loud presentation. In certain circumstances, metal's anarchist nature might also face hushing by repressive regimes. However, a very good start would be work on an article about metal music's social impacts. I would be happy to contribute my two cents :). -- urnonav 22:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
One problem is that many other forms of music besides metal are banned in such countries.

[edit] Sources

Are 3 online articles from magazines reliable enough sources to justify the existance of this article? it seems like all they talk about is Malaysia rather than "Islamic countries" although those words are mentioned. Correct me please if I am wrong -- - K a s h Talk | email 22:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Please read the articles. They talk about more than Malaysia and there are many more sources I could add. In the meantime, there is no need for the sources tag when there are already fact tags in the article for specific statements that lack footnotes. That is clearly overkill for an article that is this short (as is the second POV tag). Therefore, I am again removing the unsourced tag at the top of the article. -- JJay 22:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I added an announcement in the wrong place...whoops. --Eastlaw 05:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I have a friend in malaysia who dresses liek something the hot topic threw up and she's the guitarist in an afi style hardcore punk band in Malaysia. Would that go in the topic despite that hardcore and metal are so different? Ic an ask her about the genre in malaysia if you like so we can get more info. --Myahon 6:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)