Talk:Heavenly Mother

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Contents 1 Mormonism 2 More inclusive article 3 Reference/Note Proposal 4 Capitalization of "her" 5 Latter Day Saint vs Latter-day Saint 6 Merge the article 7 Biblical Evidence of a Heavenly Mother? 8 Statement Removed from Article 9 Section Sequence 10 Request for Citations

[edit] Mormonism

Per your comments, there are no real authoritative sources for this doctrine, except for acknowledgement. The closest is two of the official proclamations ("origin of man" and "the family"). The Church is scarce on sources and has stated that discussion of a Heavenly Mother is speculative.

Personally, I have absolutely no idea why this page was created. This forum is not the Encyclopedia of Mormonism and every statement, doctrine or obscure teaching does not need to be fully explained. Use Wisdom (incidentally, "Wisdom" is another early Hebrew name for a female deity) in the creation of these pages. If it comes up as a question, address it. There are enough blank Mormon stubs that need to be filled out to keep us busy for a few months, without the creation of new pages. Remember the point of Wikipedia - NPOV, relevant, accurate, etc. Perhaps I am wrong in this, and can be persuaded, but pages like this and Second Anointing are speculative and not founded in strong current teachings, and are therefore a bit sketchy to write about (aside from a historical or cultural perspective). The official, authoritative information is simply not there (see my comments about the correlation program in the Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints talk pages and archives). I'm probably wrong in my cautions, as I do believe that open information leads to better understanding. Anyway, I do like your edits, contribution and fresh perspective. Keep up the good work. Visorstuff 14:25, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks. There are many Mormon doctrines are either obsolete or not publicized, yet have great historical or cultural significance. I think the purpose of "X (Mormonism)" articles (as opposed to articles describing a particular church), should be to reflect de facto Mormonism---which is not necessarily the same as the official pronouncements of a church. An encyclopedia article on a doctrine should describe doctrines, not just official creeds. As a lifelong Utah Mormon, I can state first-hand that the doctrine of Heavenly Mother is a well-accepted and important (though not advertised) doctrine in the LDS Church. Indeed, it is gaining increasing importance among Mormon feminists. (A feminist professor at Brigham Young University was fired several years ago because she encouraged students to pray to the Heavenly Mother.) Moreover, this doctrine has contributed (rightly or wrongly) to the new phenomenon of dialog between Mormonism and New Age ideas. The doctrine is persistently brought up in anti-Mormon discourse, and I think that both Mormon critics and Mormon apologists have a lot to say on the subject.COGDEN 16:40, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I too am a born-and-raised Utah Mormon (not sure of your point on that) until completion of my undergraduate degree at BYU (not counting summer working in other states, archeaological field schools and my mission). I hope to move back some day, to be near my family. However, the church does take an official stance on doctrines - see Common Latter-day Saint perceptions and Outer Darkness's talk page and discussions for details (also info about correlation and official doctrines at Talk:Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). This is the whole purpose of the Correlation program. There are many things in the church that are believed by the members at large, that are simple not true - Saturday's Warrior and My Turn of Earth are full of them! Though they may or may not be true, or were taught by earlier church leaders, does not make them official church doctrines. Though the doctrine of heavenly mother is taught by members of the church and is officially acknowledged by the Church, additional information is speculative. Some early brethren taught that there were more than one, Some taught that there is only one for this earth. Some taught that there is only one. Who knows. There are fights among LDS scholars about subjects like this, the three degrees of glory, the three divisions in the pre-mortal life, what it exactly means to be a god, etc (familiar with Joseph Fielding Smith's comments about speculation on the nature of Intelligence and Spirit? and his and president Kimball's comments about doctrinal speculation? his quote is often used in comments about the Adam-God Theory).

I think we should (and I have tried) to differentiate between common Mormon belief and official Church doctrine. Even President Hinckley was slammed by anti-Mormons for saying that we don't teach or even necessarily believe we'll be gods of our own planets to Mike Wallace. He was saying we simply don't understand what it means to be a god, and that is the official church stance. Any additional information, although it may be correct is speculation and not official doctrine. Perhaps we need an article on Commonly believed Mormon Doctrines versus Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The thing is doctrines do not become obsolete. They may change, but doctrine is truth and adherence to official belief. Application of the doctrine changes as well and history is easily taken out of context. We will never understand plural marriage, because we didn't live it. Any time it is brought up in Church, it is the duty of the presiding authorities to stop any discussion on it - per OD #1. We simply do not teach the doctrine or practice it anymore. Please understand we are not attacking you or these edits. They are good and probably needed. We realize this is an open source forum and that all of our intents are good to share information that is needed to clarify point of thought. We appreciate your work and look forward to more. Just be careful no to misrepresent official doctrine for "a general authority once said X, so it must be true." I just wish people would read the Ensign more so they can understand many of the clarifications. Visorstuff 17:16, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

My initial feeling when I saw this article pop up: *Sigh*. Given all of the other Church and Mormon articles that need more material (like patriarchal blessing) and improvement (like History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), I question the wisdom of starting an article like this at this point. Oh well. B 16:23, Dec 10, 2003 (UTC)

That's a fair statement; however, one of the advantages of open source projects like Wikipedia is that people are free to develop areas that interest them most. Eventually, there will be a detailed and interesting Heavenly Mother article, and I'm hoping it's sooner than later.COGDEN 16:40, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What?! Don't you know that this part of Wikipedia is BoNoMoJopedia?! You are supposed to develop articles that interest me! J.K. LOL B 04:11, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] More inclusive article

Since Mormonism is not the only religion that believes in a heavenly mother, should this article be reformatted to be more inclusive and not so LDS-centric? --Kmsiever 22:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree; however, as I know very little about other religions beliefs in this matter - I can't help - perhaps there is another article on God (female) that we could put at the top of the article. --Trödel 15:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think there is the concept of heavenly mother in Hinduism, that is the universal God finding expression in the form of a goddess as well as a god. I am no expert however. I am sure that many New Age type people have the same kind of concept. Steve Dufour 16:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference/Note Proposal

I propose that instead of inline cites (Origin, p 339-340), we use footnotes and reference the bibliography - as opposed to including the cites in the bibliography. Doing this would look like this:

... In addition, members of the Anointed Quorum, a highly select spiritual organization in the early Church that was privy to Smith's teachings, also acknowledged the existence of a Heavenly Mother.[1] Also, the Times and Seasons published a letter to the editor from a person named "Joseph's Specked Bird" in which the author stated that in the pre-Earth life, the spirit "was a child with his father and mother in heaven".[2] ... References ^ See Wilcox, pp. 65-67 (1987); Orson Pratt, p. 292 (1876); Wilford Woodruff, pp. 31-32 (1875). ^ See Joseph's Specked Bird, p. 892 (1845). Bibliography Joseph's Specked Bird, Letter to the Editor, Times and Seasons 6: 892 (May 1, 1845). Pratt, Orson, Journal of Discourses 18:292 (Nov. 12, 1876). Wilcox, Linda P., "The Mormon Concept of a Mother in Heaven", Sisters in Spirit: Mormon Women in Historical and Cultural Perspective, edited by Maureen Ursenbach Beecher and Lavina Fielding Anderson (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1987), 64-77. Woodruff, Wilford, Journal of Discourses 18:31-32 (June 27, 1875).

I also think we should use Harvard Reference cite style. Any objections? --Trödel 15:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. I have no preference for a style though. --Kmsiever 16:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If you want to change the citations I've added to a uniform style (or offer better citations), I have no objection. 67.60.44.201 23:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops... I wasn't signed in when I made those citation edits, or when I added the above comment (as 67.60.44.201). This is my user ID. Eric.d.dixon 23:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - the above was implemented earlier this week - I'll add the Lee book to the bibliography. Generally I think (and this is only my view not a policy) that websites should rarely be included in a bibliography. --Trödel 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization of "her"

While I understand that the h should be capitalized in Church writings, is it really proper in this case? We're not supposed to be writing from a POV. Dead Horse 20:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latter Day Saint vs Latter-day Saint

Why are there two sections on Latter Day Saint belefs? I understand the Wiki naming convention, but do we really need to cover the non-Utah denominations on this one? It seems to only really be Latter-day Saints who are being addressed.

[edit] Merge the article

Also, maybe we can find a more generic article. Goddess? Mother Earth? Something where more inclusion of other belief systems can be covered? "Heavenly Mother" is a very LDS term. Bytebear 21:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think trying to merge it into Mother Goddess, as has been suggested, might offend some people. Steve Dufour 05:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This would be a bad move. The Latter-day Saint belief does not view Heavely Mother as a Mother Goddess in the traditional sense of the word. In the extent to which the term God can be aplied to her it is when used as in the plural man and woman one unit sense of the word.

This does not lend itself to being considered in the Mother Goddess topic. You are perfectly free to add a mention to this in the Mother Goddess wed site, but I do not think such a move would be wise. However I think this concept is different enough, since it is an outgrowth of the title of Father held by the Traditional Christian God that it desrves treatment in its own article.- John Pack Lambert

The Latter-day Saints, however, are not the only ones who believe in a Heavenly Mother, and they do not have a monopoly on the doctrine. --Kmsiever 19:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I would suggest. Merge this article with Mother Goddess, and then create a new article entitled Heavenly Mother (Latter Day Saints) to discuss LDS-specific beliefs. If the Branch Davidians would be offenced by Mother Goddess, then we can combine LDS and Branch Davidian beliefs in a new article entitled Heavenly Mother (Christianity). COGDEN 19:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical Evidence of a Heavenly Mother?

I am not associated with any so-called "church", or other group of any kind. Only to say that per 1 Corinthians 2:13, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.", is the only way truth in God's word the Bible is found.... There are numerous infallible proofs per say in the Bible which show who the Holy Spirit is, and the nature of this Spirit of God, which are unfortunately and vastly lost to doctrines of men in most circles, and additionally disguised by Bible translations which paraphrase doctrines of men, failing to see the Word for what it says. One of a vast number of examples, the connections in these passages are widely overlooked:

2Jn1:1 The elder unto the elect *lady* AND *her children*, whom I *love in the truth*; and not I only, but also all they that have *known the truth*; 2Jn1:5 And now I beseech thee, *lady*, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that *which we had from the beginning*, that we *love* one another.

John15:26 But when the *Comforter* is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even *the Spirit of truth*, which proceedeth from the Father, [he/(she)] shall testify of me: John14:26 But the *Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost*, whom the Father will send in my name, [he/(she)] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Prv8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Prv8:23 I was set up from everlasting, *from the beginning*, or ever the earth was. Prv8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Prv8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Prv8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. Prv8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: Prv8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: Prv8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Prv8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Prv8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Prv3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

It is also overlooked what the Promise spoken of in the Bible actually is:

Deu6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath *promised thee*, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. Luke3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: *he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost* and with fire: Acts2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father *the promise of the Holy Ghost*, [he/(she)] hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Prv1:20 *Wisdom* crieth without; [she] uttereth [her] voice in the streets: Prv8:11 For *wisdom* is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are *not to be compared to [it\(her)]*.

The above is just one example, not even the tip of the iceburg. Additionally, a vast wealth of information is gleaned by going back to the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek of the Bible. Those languages are so colorful in word meaning, that looking to the original words, and word roots in conjunction with realizing the Word of God is a book of parables, only then do we begin to see light.

Psa78:2 I will *open my mouth in a parable*: I will utter dark sayings of old: Prv1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will *pour out my spirit unto you*, I will make known my words unto you.

Jer31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A *voice was heard in Ramah*, lamentation, and bitter weeping; *Rahel weeping for her children* refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. Jer31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for *thy work shall be rewarded*, saith the LORD; and *they shall come* again from the land of the enemy. Jer31:17 And there is *hope in thine end*, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Rom5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because *the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost* which is given unto us.

Isa44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and [he/(she/that One)] that *formed thee from the womb*, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

John3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is *born of the Spirit*.

Rev12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; *a woman* clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: -

Ge1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the *image of God* created he him; *male and female* created he them. 2Cor4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious *gospel of Christ, who is the image of God*, should shine unto them. 1Cor11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and *the head of the woman is the man*; and the head of Christ is God. 1Cor6:19 What? know ye not that *your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost* which is in you, which ye have of God, and *ye are not your own*?

Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and *renewing of the Holy Ghost*; Rev19:8 And to her was granted that *she should be arrayed in fine linen*, clean and white: for the fine linen is *the righteousness of saints*. 2Pet1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be *partakers of the divine nature*, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Ge21:6 And *Sarah* said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that *hear* will laugh with me. Luke1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth *heard the salutation* of Mary, the *babe leaped in her womb*; and Elisabeth was *filled with the Holy Ghost*:

Prv1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

But there is a little more complexity to the "woman", namely a mother figure and two daughters. One which remains true, and the other which departs, but both from the same mother:

Eze23:2 Son of man, there were *two women*, *the daughters of one mother*.

Ruth1:8 And *Naomi said unto her two daughters in law*, Go, return each to her mother's house: the LORD deal kindly with you, as ye have dealt with the dead, and with me. Ruth1:15 And she said, Behold, *thy sister in law is gone back* unto her people, and *unto her gods*: return thou after thy sister in law. Ruth1:16 And *Ruth said*, *Intreat me not to leave thee*, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: *thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God*:

Gal4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by *a bondmaid*, the other by *a freewoman*. Gal4:23 But he who was of the *bondwoman was born after the flesh*; but he of the *freewoman was by promise*. Gal4:24 Which things are an *allegory*: for these are the *two covenants*; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. Gal4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Gal4:26 But *Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all*.

SSol4:9 Thou hast ravished my heart, *my sister, my spouse*; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck. Isa62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall *thy sons marry thee*: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Perhaps one statement which indicates the quietness regarding the "woman" is related to this verse:

Ruth3:14 And she lay at his feet until the morning: and she rose up before one could know another. And he said, *Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor*. Jer51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is *like a threshingfloor*, *it is time to thresh her*: yet a little while, and *the time of her harvest shall come*.

This complexity might be best understood in light such verses as these:

John10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be *one fold, and one shepherd*. John17:23 *I in them, and thou in me*, that they may be *made perfect in one*; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 1Cor15:23 But *every man in his own order*: *Christ the firstfruits*; *afterward they that are Christ's at [his/(her/that one's)] coming*.

John6:63 It is the *Spirit that quickeneth*; the flesh profiteth nothing: *the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life*. Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and *renewing of the Holy Ghost*; Rev21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, *Write: for these words are true and faithful*. 2Cor2:17 For *we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God*: but as of sincerity, but as of God, *in the sight of God speak we in Christ*

John14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* Comforter, that [he/(she/that one)] *may abide with you for ever*; 1Jn5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Gal6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

1Cor15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that *God may be all in all*. Eph1:23 Which is *[his/(her)] body*, the fulness of him *that filleth all in all*. 1Cor15:44 It is *sown a natural body*; it is *raised a spiritual body*. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

To actually declare all the Biblical evidence would take vast books and time, so it has been spoken in a parable, that those who hear, will understand!

John21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even *the world itself could not contain the books that should be written*. Amen. 1Jn4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because *greater is [he/(she,that one)] that is in you, than [he/(she)] that is in the world*. Luke17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, *the kingdom of God is within you*.

[edit] Statement Removed from Article

Happy to see you removed this statement from your article:

"or it may be that her role, unlike those of Jesus Christ and God the Father, does not impact eternal salvation"

Some reasons:

John16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send [him/(her/that one)] unto you. John16:8 And when [he/(she)] is come, [he/(she)] ***will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment*** John16:9 ==>Of sin, because they believe not on me<==

Mark3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Prv8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. Prv8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: ***all they that hate me love death***. Prv9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

[[User: | ]] 13:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section Sequence

I organized the sections in alpha order, as the present order appears to be simply the order of creation. Any objections? Any other sequencing schemes? WBardwin 01:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Citations

Regarding the section:

“Due to the prevailing belief among some Latter-day Saints that plural marriage is a true principle that is practiced in heaven, some members of the LDS Church consider that there are more than one Mothers in Heaven.”

The phrase, “prevailing belief among some Latter-day Saints,” appears contradictory. The word “prevailing” is synonymous with “popular, general and widespread.” Therefore, the belief could be held by some Latter-day Saints, or it could be prevalent among Latter-day Saints in general, but it does not make sense to say that it is prevailing among some Latter-day Saints.

In addition, the idea that some LDS people believe that ‘plural marriage is a true principle that is practiced in heaven,’ is a rather extraordinary claim which, in my opinion, needs to be backed up with its own citation.

Also, while the claim that some members of LDS Church believe that God the Father has multiple wives is technically true, it can be misleading. While some members of the LDS Church believe in this idea, it is also true that some members of the LDS Church believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster. This does not mean that they derived their belief from LDS doctrine or that they constitute a significant portion of the LDS population (or at least not a significant enough portion to warrant inclusion in a Wikipedia article).

If the author does mean to imply that a significant number of LDS adherents hold this belief, then it is my opinion that this extraordinary claim requires a better citation than a reference to two comments in a blog entry. To be clear, however, I am not calling for the removal of this statement so much as I am calling for a better citation which can match the serious nature of this claim.