Talk:Heartland rock

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I added a lot of material and reorganized the article quite a bit, and tried to add some historical context.

Mitchberg 01:54, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I wrote the original article (back as an anon). You've added a lot of valuable material, although the formatting needs work in places (album titles in italics!). However I have some disagreements on substance:

  • The article on roots rock shows little of the partial overlap with heartland that you claim, other than Steve Earle. I think roots rock can be mentioned as an influence, but not in the first paragraph.
  • Springsteen's Tunnel of Love is not heartland by any stretch of the imagination. It's a very personal album about the breakup of a marriage, with lots of synthesizer and drum machines, partly intended as an antidote to his heartland-era overloading of fame. Moreoever, I would argue that Born to Run isn't heartland either: it's too operatic in form and idiosyncratic in outlook. Close call though. Darkness is where the heartland imagery and form really kicks in. Nebraska, while not rock, is definitely (depressed) heartland. The Live 75-85 album, with band versions of Nebraska tracks and new song "Seeds", definitely qualifies.
  • Some more specific Seger examples are needed, such as "Feel Like a Number", "Against the Wind", "Like a Rock", maybe "Turn the Page" as an antecedent (I think I'm forgetting the best examples).
  • You badly slight Mellencamp by putting him at the end of the list. Whether you like him or not, during the 80s he was clearly as much or more the face of heartland as Seger and Petty and almost as much as Bruce. "Pink Houses" and "Rain on the Scarecrow" and "Small Town" are heartland rock if the genre has any meaning at all. And I stand by my original statement that the Scarecrow album is the best example of heartland around; it fits your definitions to a T as well.
  • Who/what is Head East? Surely there are better arena rock examples to compare against.

Anyway, when I get a chance I'll make my edits, but wanted to give the rationale for them here. Wasted Time R 03:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I generally don't disagree, with your points:
  • Formatting - yeah, I was in a hurry.
  • Roots rock article: I think the lack of overlap may be due to a lacking on the Roots Rock article's part. I may be go and edit both pieces to make the link, when/if time permits.
  • Disagree on Tunnel of Love. While it's an expansion of the style, and pushes the boundary of Heartland Rock (to the point of having songs that aren't in the genre) I think the album as a whole fits.
  • Seger - fair enough. I'm not a Seger scholar.
  • There was no intentional slight of Mellencamp; the three albums I listed are among my favorites ever, and I have written (in other fora) long and loud about my love of Scarecrow).

Mitchberg 12:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've made my edits. I've generally tried to restore elements of my original article while keeping all of your additions while further elaborating on the main artists. I think the only thing of yours that I took out was the Potter Stewart bit, which was evidently wrong since we couldn't agree on Tunnel of Love! Wasted Time R 03:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, this is shaping up. Good adds.

One question; you mention the Heartland Rock "movement" several times. This is pretty wonky stuff, but to me "movement" implies some organized push in a specific direction. To me, heartland was more of a "genre" or style; it appeared, it flourished, it faded. It's not like there was a Heartland Manifesto or a convention in Memphis where Steve Cropper called upon a legion of flannel-clad flyoverlanders to go forth and rock!

I have a few other things I may add, esp to the Vietnam tangent. When I have some time!

Mitchberg 16:50, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I think "movement" is only mentioned once and it looks like you were the one who introduced it. No matter, I agree that there was no movement, so I've reworded it. Wasted Time R 17:20, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, in your edits to the article you made a reference to "places that the pop and entertainment establishments eschewed as 'flyover land'", and you just reiterated that idea above. I don't think this is a relevant notion. As I see it rock music has never been tied to the East and West Coast establishments; its waves of energy and innovation have come from the rural Deep South, or the urban Midwest, or various other parts. Even the trends that did originate from the urban cities on the coasts, such as psychedelia in the 60s or punk and disco in the 70s, came from outre cultures (beat poets/hippies, disaffected teenagers, gays, etc) not from any establishment. Thus I don't think heartland rock is any different from any other kind of rock in this regard. Wasted Time R 19:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, here's what I"m getting at - and may rewrite to fit; there's a sense of isolation in Heartland music, of being stranded in the middle of a really huge place far from the center of things, or in reveling in being there. It's a huge part of most of the great music of the genre; Darkness, Nebraska, Blood on the Bricks, The Distance, Night Moves...that's what the "flyover land" comment was aiming toward. And I think I probably hit it more with this comment than with the bit on the article...
I'm going to have to work that into the piece.
Mitchberg 23:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I heavily rewrote and reorged that section. Whatdya think?
Mitchberg 23:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Very interesting — I never quite thought of it in terms of those kinds of isolations. I like it. Yes, it verges on personal interpretation rather than encyclopedic matter-of-factness, but so what ... if you can't include some neat theory into WP now and then, what's the point of writing ... I know I've done it in places! I've added a few bits around the edges to what you wrote, and I've also mentioned politics (that is, the lack thereof) briefly as well. Wasted Time R 08:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
It is a neat theory ;-) - but both Dave Marsh and Robert Christgau write in some depth about the importance of isolation in conjunction with Springsteen and (IIRC) Seger, and I have read a Houserockers review that goes into it also. Just saying, I'm not completely alone here! But thanks...
Mitchberg 15:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've added Marsh and Christgau as partial sources in the article, to strengthen the claim that this interpretation belongs there. Wasted Time R 16:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Artist questions

I'm going to push back on three of the "associated" artists:

  • Robbie Dupree: I have never heard of him being associated with the genre in any way. I worked in radio during Dupree's "heyday", and I don't recall any such association about Dupree
  • George Thorogood: He was blues rock. He had more in common with ZZ Top than with Bob Seger. To the best of my knowledge, his only claim to the "heartland" genre is that Thorogood's music was and is played at a lot of bars in the heartland (and everywhere else).
  • The Fabulous Thunderbirds: They were a "roots" or "blues" band (originally to an obnoxious extent; their first couple of albums were recorded in non-multitracked single-take Monaural), and later went pop in about the same way ZZ Top did.

I'm loathe to unilaterally edit these out, so I figured I'd toss 'em up here first. I don't believe any of the above are connected with, much less representative of, the genre.

The mention of Dupree is from references in Rolling Stone comparing him to Bruce Springsteen (specifically, they called him "sub-Springsteen" and a heartland rock wannabe.) As for the other two, true, they were blues rock, but I've often heard them lumped in with the heartland artists, especially Thorogood. Thorogood and Dupree both have common heartland rock elements in their lyrics. Dupree's "Hot Rod Hearts" for example, and Thorogood's singing about things like unemployment and drinking in working class bars. Neither of them probably have any less claim to being heartland rock than do the Iron City Houserockers. On reflection the only one of the three that I'd agree may not belong on the list is the Fabulous Thunderbirds. (added on edit): I do remember Rolling Stone magazine including George Thorogood in the genre, albeit as more of a sideshow exageration of blue collar themes than the core artists like Springsteen and Mellencamp. Bon Jovi, on the other hand, I have never thought of as being associated in any way.
Re Dupree - you have brought back some 'orrible memories. But you are correct.
As re Thorogood - his music covered themes common to both "heartland" and blues. The style is pure twelve-bar, straight outta Howling Wolf. I'll agree he's a gray area at best.
The T-Birds - can we remove, then?
And I agree about Bon Jovi.
Mitchberg 17:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of the rewordings of the George Thorogood and Billy Joel descriptions? Feel free to reword them again if you don't like them. T-Birds removed per discussion. Also: I don't know if Bon Jovi really belongs but I'll throw out another name for discussion who might (as if I haven't brought back enough 'orrible memories): Bryan Adams. Yes or no?
Excellent on all counts. I added a few references to Billy Joel's bit ("Say Goodbye to Hollywood" oozes Springsteenisms), but all in all it is very good. Thanks.
Oh, and Bryan Adams, yes; he was called the "Canadian Springsteen" earlier in his career. I will write something on that right now, feel free to edit.
Mitchberg 12:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
See, for example, [1] (read the "continue"), [2], and [3] for references to Bon Jovi as a heartland rocker of sorts. He definitely belongs in the "artists sometimes associated with" category. Wasted Time R 22:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd forgotten about "New Jersey" and Bon Jovi's other later stuff. (The Bon Jovi I remember was the one I saw open for, and outrock, a very inebriated RATT in 1986!) Here are some more. Would Bruce Hornsby be considered heartland rock? Jason and the (Nashville) Scorchers? Looking Glass? Los Lobos? John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band? Grand Funk Railroad? Just some ideas. Add any of them if you think they fit. 192.112.66.25 21:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's see:
  • Hornsby - I suggest not. He's more in the California singer-songwriter pop tradition.
  • Jason and the Scorchers are cowpunks; it's a similar genre, but not the same. Self-consciously apeing country/western.
  • Looking Glass - interesting. They were actually a greasy little frat band from Rutgers (Camden, NJ), who cleaned up their act and had their big hit, "Brandy", which was more in the White soul category, I think (a college english professor of mine lived in a frat house with them)
  • Los Lobos - I think so, at least partly; they span SO many genres, it'd be hard to argue. (And I love 'em)
  • JCaf and the BBRown Band - Yes. Seriously, I've started writing a section for them like three times now - and can't find enough stuff about 'em. My uncle was a fan of theirs when they were just a regular bar band in Jersey, before Eddie and the Cruisers made them into eveyrone's cut-rate Springsteen.
  • Grand Funk - Dear Lord, no. :-)
I can take a stab at adding Los Lobos and (another at) Cafferty ,unless you'd rather.
Mitchberg 23:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Hornsby is more the "Virginia sound", a little overlap with heartland but not much, and then he turned more and more to jazz. Grank Funk Railroad is the Anti-Heartland, I think! Wasted Time R 00:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Hornsby is actually mentioned on Allmusic.com as an example of heartland rock, which is why I brought him up. Grand Funk - an antecedent of grunge and heavy metal if anything, but I brought them up because their populist politics and self-consciously playing up their Flint, Michigan roots may (or may not) have been an influence. Looking Glass - some of the stuff on their first album comes highly recommended, especially "Catherine Street" and "From Stanton Station" - pure wrong side of the tracks Jersey rock, a year before Springsteen appeared. Can't argue with Los Lobos. 192.112.66.25 12:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Grand Funk Railroad - the early stuff was more R & B influenced protometal, but I'd consider the middle and later periods to be in the heartland rock genre, from "Phoenix" onward
Hornsby...just...doesn't...compute. I'm sorry - I'm open to being convinced...
GFRR - I always thought of them as "anti-glam"; an analogy might be Grand Funk was to Led Zeppelin what Snow was to Public Enemy. Or...somethign like that (we need a "High Infidelity" template...)
But you bring up an interesting point; given the scattershot diversity of HR's roots, maybe a sampling of pre-HR bands whose styles might have contributed. I can think of a few example: Looking Glass, the Four Seasons (total Springsteen/Jersey Shore antecedents), that kind of thing.
Which introduces the question; do we need to create a "Jersey Shore" article? So much of the Jersey Shore sound - the Jukes, Little Steven, and before that groups like the Four Seasons and Looking Glass and so on - abuts Heartland but doesn't intersect. Mitchberg 15:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

I started reorganizing things, adding headings and a "history" section as a nod to some basic format. However, I overestimated my energy level this evening. I like the idea, but "history" needs some fleshing out, and I've totally hit the wall tonight. Feel free.

[edit] Jersey Shore Sound

The more I look at this, the more I think we need a whole, standalone "Jersey Shore" article.

I'm going to create a stub. Dive in.

I've started the stub. Feel free; I'll add more as time permits.
Mitchberg 17:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I've renamed it to the more appropriate Jersey Shore sound (cf. Nashville sound, Bakersfield sound). I've also linked to it from a bunch of articles (check "What links here" when there), so that the admins don't delete it as an orphan. Wasted Time R 17:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. DIdn't know about the orphan article bit - figured I'd try to develop it a bit before linking it everywhere. But thanks.
Mitchberg 18:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current / Newer Artists

Has there been much thought to what artists from today could fall into the category of Heartland Rock? Not always in content, but many times in sound, Matchbox Twenty and Goo Goo Dolls both appeal to my Heartland Rock ear. Are there others? If so, might there be room for a paragraph on the main page?

Sorry for not logging in.

Based on some googling, Goo Goos maybe, Matchbox 20 no way. Wasted Time R 03:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jackson Browne

went through a heartland rock period about the same time as Billy Joel. Or at least his 1978 and 1980 albums were clearly in the genre. Should we add him? Also, how about Huey Lewis and the News? I thought of them as new wave during their 80s heyday but looking back they were pretty heartlandy. Not sure about Robbie Dupree. I have his debut album which is now out on CD, and he was firmly in the blue-eyed soul genre. He makes halfhearted gestures toward Springsteen on his two hit singles but otherwise more influenced by Hall & Oates. 70.108.137.71 03:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)