Talk:Hawaiian lobelioids
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[edit] "double flower"
The "double flower" of Clermontia is formed by enlargement and coloration of the sepals, not duplication of the petals as described in the double flower article. KarlM (talk) 18:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Can you give a reference so I can include it in the double-flowered page? I've only recently made this article. It sounds like what you're saying is that this mutation is a homeotic change of sepal to petal, rather than stamen to petal? I'm updating it as I learn more about the subject... the current form is more moderate than the version you saw (because I saw a sepal-to-petal mutation mentioned somewhere), stating "Double-flower forms usually arise when some or all of the stamens in a flower are replaced by petals." With a good reference maybe I could add a sentence or paragraph about sepal-to-petal types. Madeleine ✉ ✍ 19:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- It's discussed in the Manual of Flowering Plants book (Wagner et al.) cited in the article. I added a pic of the typical section Clermontioideae form. There's also one sort-of intermediate with lobes that are enlarged but still foliate, which is considered a subspecies of the same one in the new pic and therefore probably convergent rather than a true intermediate. It seemed redundant to include it in the article, but I have a picture of it here. Convergence of sepal form on petals (or even replacement) is fairly common, so I would think that once they start getting enlarged for whatever reason, the evolutionary pressure starts for them to look like petals pretty quickly. KarlM (talk) 11:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, so... not a single gene mutation ... plus, that reference would be nontrivial for me to get ahold of. Well, I was just fishing for info on how make the double-flowered article more accurately cover all usages of the term. If you think it's inappropriate to link, that's fine; I merely searched Wikipedia for all usages of the phrase and linked them. Madeleine ✉ ✍ 19:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, the reason I changed it back in the first place was that it sounded like you were using the term "double flower" in a semi-technical way for a specific change or type of change, and in this case it's more of an informal term because it looks like it's got two sets of petals. KarlM (talk) 19:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, so... not a single gene mutation ... plus, that reference would be nontrivial for me to get ahold of. Well, I was just fishing for info on how make the double-flowered article more accurately cover all usages of the term. If you think it's inappropriate to link, that's fine; I merely searched Wikipedia for all usages of the phrase and linked them. Madeleine ✉ ✍ 19:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- It's discussed in the Manual of Flowering Plants book (Wagner et al.) cited in the article. I added a pic of the typical section Clermontioideae form. There's also one sort-of intermediate with lobes that are enlarged but still foliate, which is considered a subspecies of the same one in the new pic and therefore probably convergent rather than a true intermediate. It seemed redundant to include it in the article, but I have a picture of it here. Convergence of sepal form on petals (or even replacement) is fairly common, so I would think that once they start getting enlarged for whatever reason, the evolutionary pressure starts for them to look like petals pretty quickly. KarlM (talk) 11:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
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