User talk:Havelock the Dane/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Welcome 2 Welcome! 3 Incense Road 4 Trade route 5 Template 6 Your template 7 Template - no worry 8 Incense Route GA Nomination 9 Trade route 10 Do not understand this paragraph 11 Buddhism & Trade Routes 12 Temple talk 13 Thanks for the tips! 14 Your GA nomination of Roman trade with India 15 Hope you are feeling better 16 Roman trade with India 17 Signpost updated for October 03, 2007 18 "deprecated template" - the answer, I think 19 Don't mention it .. 20 Good work 21 Wikipedia:Lead_section#Citations_in_the_lead_section 22 Jim Corbett National Park 23 Jim Corbett National Park 24 Signpost updated for October 15th, 2007. 25 Copy edit 26 Signpost updated for October 22nd, 2007. 27 WikiProject Good Articles Newsletter for November 2007 28 Signpost updated for October 29th, 2007. 29 re:Trade routes 30 Default image size 31 Trade routes 32 Signpost updated for November 5th and 12th, 2007. 33 my rfa

[edit] Welcome

--BlindEagle^{talk~contribs} 20:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incense Road

I have to say you've done an excellent job - well done! Number 57 09:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Go for it; if your first contribution is anything to go by, you will be a great addition to wikipedia. Number 57 10:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Great job.If you can improve the article a bit more then you can nominate it to be a good article.Best regards--Aziz1005 17:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Good luck with your edits :)--Aziz1005 18:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work boos , and thanks for informing the WP:KSA . have a nice day. Ammar (^Talk - ^{Don't Talk}) 23:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to reply - is there any assistance left me to render you? Tewfik^Talk 02:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trade route

I would have to think about it more. The first sentence is cumbersome. The dictionary definitions are variations of "a route used by traveling traders or merchant ships". What are your overall goals for the article? I'm interested in trade routes too. I have written little sub articles on trade routes like Siraf and Miran (China). Let me look at the article more. It looks interesting. Regards, --Mattisse 16:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. As for the first sentence, I just improvised on the already existing intro "A trade route is the sequence of pathways and stopping places used for the commercial transport of cargo. Trade routes can be land or water-based." As for specific goals, Right now I have none. I'm out of ideas and would appreciate newer suggestions and your vision of how the article should be expanded. Is the inclusion of air routes and cargo flights possible? With Regards, Havelock the Dane 16:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Restored old intro, Havelock the Dane 18:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Your article has a lot of interesting information in it. For me, the interesting information was learning about the other routes. I have been focusing on the Silk Route and the sea routes between India and the Middle East. I didn't even know there was an article called the Incense Route. Of course, anything I say is biased by my interests. I would be interested in more information about the routes themselves, perhaps the time frames and how they overlap. When I was copy editing India history articles, I kept asking the editor how did the traders get around? How do they carry cargo? I did not know there was an article called Camel train, or the one about Roman trade with India. (I can't find that link on your page now.) I think there are too many links in the article (way more than MoS recommends), making hard to find information. Regards, --Mattisse 20:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I found the link. I wish I had known about that article also! Regards, --Mattisse 20:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

And I just found Cities along the Silk Road - wish I had known about that! --Mattisse 20:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you replying; I was begining to think that I may have pestered you a bit too much :-) . Your suggestions give me a lot of good ideas and recommendations to work with and I will work towards providing more summaries (with links to the main articles) about more trade routes. A section about the overlap of trade routes can also be a great idea for this article.

I agree that there are simply too many links in the article and I hope to create a template titled "Part of a series on Category:trade routes" and put it up on every single page so that people can navigate easily from one page to the other.

P.S. I'm working on a sourced version of the orphaned History of international trade article and have come up with this. Can I trouble you to add a couple of line about the Chinese silk route to it since I'm not familiar with it.

With regards, Havelock the Dane 20:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template

A template is a great idea. You probably know more about the Silk Route than I do. I actually don't know very much. But I can see if I can come up with something. If I had known about your articles I could of stuck links in many articles to yours. In fact I still will. I had now idea there were all those articles. (I'm still looking through them). --Mattisse 20:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll try to work on the template ASAP. Havelock the Dane 20:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is relevant but there are some interesting technology of China articles that include transportation in Technology of the Song Dynasty. I copy edited the Song Dynasty article and I was amazed. --Mattisse 21:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Both the articles look great and I have found my points regarding Chinese economy here. Thanks for pointing the articles out, Havelock the Dane 21:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

User:PericlesofAthens has fascinating stuff. You can look in his User:PericlesofAthens/Gallery for great pictures. I threw together an article on an architect from one of his articles and today it is a DYK along with another article I wrote Hellhound on My Trail. I love his pictures of fire boats and the bird with a bomb around its neck -- all his pictures are wonderful. The Chinese were fantastic and I had no idea! I like the animated gun loading on one of his pages. --Mattisse 21:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it was another article on China for todays DYK. Just to be accurate. An article on an oasis town on the Silk Route: Miran. The one I pieced together from the Song Dynasty was Yingzao Fashi. --Mattisse 21:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

User:PericlesofAthens has some great stuff, I even looked up his account of Wikimedia commons and he has done well there. The China related articles are both well written and informative. I am in the process of collecting some info for writing about the economy of China right now. I did'nt know they used paper money before most countries! Havelock the Dane 21:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Made the template and updated the article. I found an excellent image of one of the first banknotes in history in the articles that you suggested and found three points regarding the Song Dynasty which I incorporated in the expansion. Thanks and Regards, Havelock the Dane 23:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your template

That is great! I think it will help a lot. Just looking at it I saw routes I still haven't hear of - the Amber Route and the Trans-Saharan trade. You have done a lot of work. Would you mind if I copy edited some of your articles, like the Trade route article (getting rid of most of those links)? --Mattisse 23:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Except looking at the Amber Route, I don't think the template is obvious enough. I hate to suggest this because in general I hate info boxes, but maybe that is what you need. --Mattisse 23:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Please go right ahead. If there is any way in which I can be of help let me know. I'll expand the template mentioning the cities etc. along the trade routes in the near future and do a better job at aligning it in articles. I'll also add more trade route sections to the main trade route article ASAP.
With regards, Havelock the Dane 01:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The second template is much more subtle. I used to think subtle was good. But now I think the whole trade route thing has had such a low profile (witness that I was trying to find out about trade routes unsucessfully) that it may be too subtle. Do you know how to make the info box where you insert the article's picture into it? Do you know what I mean? --Mattisse 00:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template - no worry

Either of the original ones you came up with is fine. I was thinking of the type of info box where each route would stick it own map in it. But that is just an idle idea. I have no idea how to come up with one of those. It seems more important to try to get the articles in some kind of shape. The Silk Road article is a mess. I think I saw a book on the Silk Route somewhere. Have a good trip! --Mattisse 19:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the message; the Silk Road was the next article I wanted to edit as it covers an ancient and influential trade route connecting Mesopotamia, India, China etc.

Thankfully, abundant material is available for referencing and the article has a good enough structure but needs lots of cited info and verifiable facts.
Regards, Havelock the Dane 19:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incense Route GA Nomination

Hi. I reviewed your Good Article Nomination for Incense Route, but I have a few small concerns, so I've put the article on hold for now. If they can be fixed up, I think everything else looks great and I would gladly pass it as a Good Article. Cheers, CP 17:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the review of the article, and for taking the time to notify me about the shortcomings. I'll try to address them and notify you ASAP.
With regards,
Havelock the Dane 21:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I've made a few changes. Take a look here.
Havelock the Dane 01:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I left just a few small things to be taken care of on the talk page... after that, it should be ready to go! Cheers, CP 02:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the note and for careful and detailed evaluation of the article and related shortcomings. I'll try to get down to it ASAP and will notify you once it's done. With Regards,
Havelock the Dane 02:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Made a few edits to address concerns and described them here.
Havelock the Dane 05:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

And now I have passed it, congratulations! This is my first time doing a good article review, so if there's some sort of template I'm supposed to put on your talk page, let me know... I haven't seen one yet. Also, if you want me to fix up the citations, just let me know and I can take care of it tomorrow. Cheers, CP 06:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Your insightful and detailed evaluation of the article has changed it much since the version on 21:03, 31 August 2007. In fact, the article has become well sourced and bulked up from a light 11,158 bytes to a healthy 16,087 bytes (06:04, 4 September 2007) thanks to your careful evaluation. Many thanks for taking the time to go into the details, Havelock the Dane 06:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trade route

Sure. I will look through it for typos, spelling, wording and MoS issues. Regards, --Mattisse 19:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Havelock the Dane 19:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I stuck in religion along with politics in the intro. I have been writing an article on how massively Buddhism from India affected China. Take it out if you feel is doesn't fit. --Mattisse 19:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I had a taste of how religion made its way along the Silk roads reading The Silk Roads: Highways of Culture and Commerce by Vadime Elisseeff. Not only do I welcome the addition, I actually would like to contribute to Buddhism related articles as soon as I get over my August-September (2007) projects. Havelock the Dane 19:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by some of the locations in the article. I am sticking in what I think you mean but you need to check. Also, when you say "the Egyptians traded in the Red Sea" do you mean by means of shipping routes through the Red Sea or around the ports of the Red Sea? --Mattisse 19:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

They sailed to the "Land of Punt" under Sahure using the Red Sea ports but I'll get some additional details. The Egypt-Land of Punt trade may be along one of the early regular sea routes and can be expanded since ships did sail with some regularity between the two regions. Havelock the Dane 20:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you need to put some context in because the average reader (including me) does not know what those geographical names are referring to. Also, this is a matter of taste, but over at the Feature Article Candidate page, they frown heavily on the over linking of dates. They feel that unless something important happened on that date that pertains directly to your article, dates should not be linked. The GA people probably do not care. Do you have a reason for linking the dates? --Mattisse 20:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

In response to "Do you have a reason for linking the dates?" my honest reply would be none whatsoever. I just followed a general pattern that I saw in some other pages and implemented it uniformly. I'll rem the links ASAP. Havelock the Dane 20:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do not understand this paragraph

It seems like the routes should be listed in the order that they appear in the article, so I rearranged them and now have several routes left over.

The period from 1500 BCE-1 CE saw the Western Asian, Mediterranean, Chinese and Indian societies develop major transportation networks for trade.^[1] The main networks included the Incense Route of Arabia, the Silk route, the Grand Trunk Road of India, Via Maris, the Spice trade and the Amber road. (Left over are The Royal Road of Persia, the Yellow river system of China, and, the Phoenician sea lanes of the Mediterranean.^[1] )

I do not know what all those extra routes are that do not have heading below and it does not seem that you explain where they fit in further down in the article. --Mattisse 20:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I copied/pasted this paragraph from Denemark, Robert Allen (2000). World System History: The Social Science of Long-Term Change. Routledge. ISBN 0415232767 in blockquotes:

This was a time when western Asian, Mediterranean, Chinese and Indian societies developed along relatively independent lines. Regional transportation arteries emerged; The Royal Road of Persia, the Grand Trunk Road of India, the Ambassador Road and Yellow river system of China, the Incense Road of Arabia and, adjacent to it, the Phoenician sea lanes of the Mediterranean. Regional constellations of cities sharpened in resolution; a world galaxy of cities was still embryonic.

I then proceeded to convert it into sentences since a blockquote felt odd in the intro. I kept the basic structure intact but should have removed the non notable mentions.
,Havelock the Dane 05:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

On second thought can the present structure be kept ? Perhaps someone will later expand the article and will create the Abassador road article ? The para is about early routes and some other routes can be mentioned alongwith the major Asian and European routes. Havelock the Dane 05:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

My concern is that whatever you do have in the article, that there be enough context that the reader can understand what you are writing about. For me, currently, the article is over my head. I suggested listing the article in order of their presentation in the article because that helps guide the reader through the following text. If you want to mention routes that you are not going to explain in the article, maybe they could be listed else where or put in the See also. Or maybe a general paragraph naming the routes you do not discuss and give a little context. I am suggesting something along those lines. --Mattisse 16:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I will look at Trade routes. I'm just a little burned out today on the subject as I had heavy Buddhism/Trade route issues over the weekend. I had a DYK on a Chinese pagoda and someone wanted to know exactly how Indian Buddhism influenced Chinese architecture. Of course, it must have been through trade routes, but it could have been via Central Asia or directly from India or both or other routes. I know there was a huge shipping trade beginning before the first century that involved India, China (at times), the Mediterranean, Africa, and probably up into the Nordic areas, as the Vikings ransacked the Mediterranean areas at certain points. I definitely need to find out more about this. Buddhism and traders were associated and accompanied each other. Trading was probably Buddhism's main way of spreading. All those oases towns on the Silk route were flourishing Buddhist centers long ago. --Mattisse 22:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buddhism & Trade Routes

I don't have a good source and just piece things together. The article I had trouble with, Songyue Pagoda, I just built off some phrases from a book and then found info on the pagoda. Then a DYK editor asked many specific questions about how what I described in the article all happened. I just said that it would take a treatise on Buddhism in India, on the history of Chinese architecture going back thousands of years and history of the many trade routes to try to explain and that in the end we don't really know. --Mattisse 01:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting as it lays out the Silk Route in the Tarim Basin clearly, the cities of the northern and southern routes, involving the Taklamakan Desert and the Turfan Depression. --Mattisse 21:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Temple talk

All those questions about the Songyue Pagoda occurred on the DYK discussion page. I don't know where the discussion part of the page goes after the date is archived. It is somewhere, I guess. You seem to know way more about trade routes than I do. When I was copy editing and Indian history articles, I asked the editor how the Indian traders moved their goods around, and he was very vague. That's when I started to get interested in places like Siraf -- actually fixing a red-link for one of his articles.

I only found out about the Silk Route accidently by doing a bunch of geography/geology articles involving the Taklamakan Desert, Lop Nur, Tibetan Plateau etc. I have no real source of information except what I happen across on the Internet. --Mattisse 23:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I have been looking through the great links you have at the end of the Trade Routes article. I added one on the Silk Route. That one seems somewhat different in that it was a main channel of transmission for Buddhism as well as trade. And Buddhist missionaries traveled with merchants and their monasteries were frequently financed by wealthy traders. --Mattisse 01:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the tips!

Thanks! I'll look into your sources. The only area I have covered is Buddhism and the Silk Route in the Taklamakan Desert. I too wish I were more multilingual! Regards, --Mattisse 11:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your GA nomination of Roman trade with India

The article Roman trade with India you nominated as a good article has failed , see Talk:Roman trade with India for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of said article. If you oppose this decision, you may ask for a reassessment. VanTucky ^Talk 22:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Glad the review was helpful, and I hope you're feeling better! I'd be happy to reassess the article once you've done some work. Happy editing, VanTucky ^Talk 22:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hope you are feeling better

Thanks for the great articles. wikibiohistory 07:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations on the GA status. Well-deserved. wikibiohistory

[edit] Roman trade with India

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[edit] "deprecated template" - the answer, I think

OK, on looking further, the problem would seem to be that Template:Wide image itself uses Template:Click, and so any use of that template will end you up in the deprecated template pages category. See Template talk:Wide image#use of deprecated template. So, unless or until someone fixes it, you're stuck with it as the price for your wide images. Regards, Bencherlite^Talk 20:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Don't mention it ..

Your comments are appreciated. I wasn't looking after Trade routes specifically; just doing WP:RCP. Reverting mindless vandalism like that is a one-click job. Philip Trueman 19:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good work

Thanks for writing a good article (not official) on Jim Corbett National Park, you can see Kaziranga National Park for further help. Hope, i can help u in making this aricle better. Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 08:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Lead_section#Citations_in_the_lead_section

Its good to see a responsible editor like you, with little past history in Protected areas of India, get involved in this article. However please remove the messy citations in the lead. The statements are non-controversial and the citations are used later in the body anyway.

Amartyabag ^TALK2ME, the lead editor of Kaziranga National Park, the only WP:FA article about National Parks of India so far, is looking over our shoulder and hopefully will jump in. Go for it. Regards, Marcus 16:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Corbett National Park

Great work on improving the article - so much that you're drawing some other good editors to join in the fun. Thanks, ॐ Priyanath talk 16:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Corbett National Park

Sorry! I've been preoccupied! Just took a look at it and it looks great. I'll look through it and see if I spot anything, although it look like it is more than enough for GA! --Mattisse 20:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I am doing some copy editing now. Just changing a little bit of the wording and so forth for variety. When you say "administration" the first time, do you mean the British? --Mattisse 20:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just grammatically speaking, I think it should be "less vulnerable to" rather than "vulnerable against" which doesn't make sense to me. I'll ask at the Village Pump place where they answer questions like that to make sure. --Mattisse 22:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! --Mattisse 22:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Copy edit

I'm really glad to hear that it's been helpful. Sometimes I have to guess at what is meant so I know I make mistakes. The article is really interesting. That photo of the elephant is great! --Mattisse 16:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] re:Trade routes

Big step! I certainly will look through it and do all that I can. Just glancing at it, it looks great. --Mattisse 19:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I was able to access it by going to the article talk page and clicking on "Leave a comment" or whatever it says. I did notice that it was not on the list. Glad that's fixed. SandyGeorgia is a extremely helpful person. It can be quite stressful going through the process. Perhaps you know this already, but be sure only one person from the article interacts with the editors. (That would be you, I would think.) --Mattisse 19:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

A little more advice: Almost always it is better to respond positively to editors' comments, even if you don't agree. Just do it their way, if you possibly can. Also, you can post on SandyGeorgia's page with questions if you don't quite understand what is going on. She is very responsive. (Be prepared also, that often editors are not in total agreement over particular issues and may give conflicting advice!) You seem to have a good attitude and that cuts down on long-winded arguments that sometimes occur. And going through the process does improve most articles. --Mattisse 19:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you mind if I change a few things? For example, there is still controversy over whether the lead should have footnotes at all. Some think yes, some think no. But you do not need two in the first para. I would at least take one of them out. I'll run through the article now to look for nit picky stuff. --Mattisse 20:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Default image size

I asked the following question to SandyGeorgia re using default image size for FAR:

Are all images supposed to be default size? Last time I was over at FAR, it seemed there was disagreement over this issue. (I am trying to help Trade routes and was wondering about the images there, as they seem quite large.) Thanks! --Mattisse 20:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:MOS#Images lists some exceptions. I believe we should uphold the MOS, but others disagree. At your own risk :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

What do you think? Mattisse 20:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. The whole trade route/routes issue is exactly the type of point that people will harp on and makes FAR so stressful. My advice (and I may be wrong) is to respond something along the lines of:

Good point! I'll look into it. Thanks! (Then hope they drop it or some sort of consensus is reached among them. Whether it is route or routes is hardly the most important issues to be addressed! Maybe I will jump in with another point to distract them off the topic.) Mattisse 21:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trade routes

It is an exceedingly frustrating business, even when I am just monitoring the article because I did the copy editing. It is very brave of you to go through it. A very good thing is that editors are interested in it. Some articles get no comments at all -- think how you would feel then!

If you think it is trying so far, wait until they get into the "MoS breach" objections. They have many obscure rules - like the default size picture "rule". And many that there is no agreement on, so it all depends on what editors happen to be interested in your article.

But the discussion is already yielding some interesting ideas. The subject is obviously massive if everything, canal, railroads, blah is going to be in it. There has to be a way to narrow down the topic to something manageable. Really this article should be a very main article, with sub articles galore. It has gotten me thinking. I had already realized that just the Silk Road/Route is huge.

I think, in the end, it will be a rewarding experience for you because you will be aware of a whole other level of sophisticated Wikipedian concerns! Mattisse 19:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The topic has to settle down before it is worth worrying about the copy editing. There is no ending it if all modes of transportation are going to be considered Trade Routes, even if the word "route" is no where in the name. See? I'm already getting upset! Mattisse 20:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes! I thought I would chime in with my two-cents, hoping they would see how ridiculous it is getting. At least you are getting "road tested" so to speak. You are starting to get the full flavor. But it is worse when no one comments. I single handedly got Bob Meusel promoted to FA. When Tony1 listed his MoS "breaches" I said I would support the article if the "breaches" were fixed. I went through the article and fixed them. No one said anything more. So I waited a while and then said Support as the breaches were fixed as far as I could tell. Still no one said anything. So it got promoted on my one vote! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattisse (talk • contribs) 21:03, 11 November 2007 (UTC) --Mattisse 00:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] my rfa