Talk:Hat-trick

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Contents 1 Zonk 2 Taft 3 'Brace' 4 Natural Hat Trick In Hockey 4.1 Scoring six goals in one game 5 True Hat-tricks in Football 6 Etymology 7 Trivia 8 Cricket hat-trick - same batsman dismissed twice 9 Ultimate Hat trick (lemieux) 10 Images 11 Double hat-trick 12 "Quatrick"? 13 Self-contradiction 14 juego online

[edit] Zonk

If marbles are allowed on the page so should Zonk.

[edit] Taft

I noticed someone added a story about the term "hat trick" being coined by a Canadian called Sammy Taft. A bit of searching turned up a lot of hits for this story. Mr Taft allegedly coined the term in the 1930s. However, it was in use in cricket in the 19th century, so it's safe to say that the Sammy Taft story is completely apocryphal. --dmmaus 11:06, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It now says "It is not certain whether he picked up this practice from cricket". An amusing story if he devised exactly the same term and concept independently, but also highly unlikely.

Can someone please provide some documentation concerning Taft? I also found this information on the hat-trick in hockey: "The term "Hat Trick" is traced back to the Guelph "Biltmores" of the Ontario Major Junior "A" league of the 1930's who were sponsored by the Biltmore Hat Company.

If a Guelph player was to score 3 goals in a game, the company would give them a new men's hat of their choice from the show room. The fans also began the tradition of throwing their hats onto the ice after the man had scored his third goal of the game." - Jim Bunting. Toronto. "

[edit] 'Brace'

(Cricket): "Taking two wickets in two consecutive deliveries is known as a brace." - not where I come from. Instead I would call it "being on a hat-trick". --Henrygb 23:21, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would say the bowler who had taken two consecutive wickets was 'on a hat-trick' until he has bowled the third delivery. If you bowl the hat-trick ball and fail to take a wicket you don't remain 'on a hat-trick', but you do go away with a 'brace'. --Ngb 10:45, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I take the point. But looking back, I would say for 3-in-a-row: "He bowled a hat-trick", for 2-in-a-row: "He was on a hat-trick". I don't recall ever having heard "brace" in that sense in cricket: compare the uses [1] and [2]. Brace seems to mean either two of anything or a support. --Henrygb 17:12, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you about brace, and I'm not sure about "double hat-trick" either; I have seen it used to mean 4 in 4, but for the most part if I heard someone say that I'd think either they meant six wickets in six balls (which does occasionally happen in minor cricket) or, slightly more likely, a hat-trick in each innings of a match. Loganberry (Talk) 02:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's mainly an antipodean term, I guess not in common usage as it's not a common feat.-- Paul 06:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've edited to say that "brace" is only occasionally used. I think even that's being rather kind, to be honest, and I can't ever remember seeing it being used in this specific sense, but I suppose it must have been heard somewhere or it wouldn't be in the article to start with. Loganberry (Talk) 00:49, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

If you've been listening to Test Match Special during the current Ashes series, you will have heard Jonathon Agnew saying it several times at appropriate moments. So it's certainly used, although I agree it's more occasional than regular. -dmmaus 00:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I can't actually remember hearing Aggers say it, but I don't doubt your word. Mind you, he does use all kinds of odd expressions... =;) Loganberry (Talk) 04:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Natural Hat Trick In Hockey

Most other sites (and people) have said that a natural hat trick is only when someone scores 3 consecutive goals, not three in one period. Can someone find something to back up the 3 goals in a period claim.

I agree. I'm tempted to remove this condition for a natural hat trick. Hansj102 17:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Natural hat trick I am confused. Former Blackhawk Bill Mosienko holds the NHL record for scoring the quickest hat trick. He scored 3 goals in 21 seconds against the New York Rangers on March 23, 1952.

Then: The term natural hat trick refers to when a player scores three goals consecutively in a single game. The goals do not have to happen in the same period. Ryan Smyth of the Edmonton Oilers set an Edmonton Oilers record for the fastest natural hat trick by scoring three consecutive goals against the San Jose Sharks in 2 minutes, one second on October 12, 2006. Ryan Smyth beat Wayne Gretzky's previous Edmonton Oilers record by 17 seconds.

Am I to believe that in between Mosienkos three goals in 21 seconds, someone else also scored? If so, I think that is worth mentioning...

I think you're confusing the NHL record with the team specific Edmonton Oilers record. Hansj102 17:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scoring six goals in one game

Ugur Yildirim scored six times against Cambuur Leeuwarden on May 23, 2003.Is he allowed to keep two balls?

So Germany and Norway have specific terms in their languages for hat-trick? This makes little sense in either Spanish or Portuguese. When someone scores three goals, we say he scores three goals. Nothing special. As a matter of fact, scoring four times is much more fun.

Perhaps it is because Latins in general have never played cricket or ice hockey.

[edit] True Hat-tricks in Football

Some regard a "true", or "perfect" hat-trick as one where the player scores with both feet and their head in the same match...

I have been enthusiastically watching (and playing) the game of football for most of my 32 years on this planet and this is the first time I have ever heard this idea of a "true" hat-trick - there is absolutely no provenance given to the claim either. A hat-trick in association football is not specified by the rules, so its interpretation in this context is bound by how it is generally accepted. Anyone who even casually follows the sport should know that the goals that constitute a hat-trick can be scored at any time in the match, excluding goals in a pen shoot-out (which aren't recognised by regulating bodies as counting to a player's scoring tally), but including those scored in extra time periods. Goals by other players may seperate them, and they can be scored in any fashion, that is, if a player scores three goals all via his knee, then it is still a hat-trick. It might be an particularly unimpressive hat-trick, but it is a hat-trick nonetheless. I am deleting this sentence, which has oh-so-offended my delicate sensibilities. Beerathon 12:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

And that bit about all 3 goals being scored in the same half is bunk as well... Beerathon 12:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Believe it or not, but others who edited this "bunk" have also played or watched football, and in at least one case for more than 32 years. So keep "your delicate sensibilities" to yourself. --Matthead 13:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Matthead - I didn't mean to offend you by the use of the word 'bunk'! - its an anachronism which I believed would be taken in jest. However, I feel that for you to just revert my edit without any other counter-argument other than tell me to mind my own business is a bit out of order.

What I believe to be the definitive description of a football hat-trick can be found over and over again in sports reports on TV, in Newspapers and online:

Peter Crouch hat-trick 1st half header, then two left-foot finishes in 2nd - with a Michael Owen goal seperating them from the first

Ljungberg hat trick one in 1st half, 2 in the 2nd.

Thierry Henry hat trick another hat-trick split by the half time period.

Now I'm not going to start an edit-war (just yet!), but if you want the article to state that other alternative definitions of a footballing hat-trick are in general use, then you need to cite some examples. For the time being I won't revert, and I'll wait for your response. Beerathon 14:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the question is, means hat-trick just "three goals by one player times in game"? The football section states so in its first sentence, which is okay as it is used by some in that context. No official definitions are given by FIFA etc. or even the media anyway. Yet, some use the term for more rare achievements only, else it would by sufficient to say "X scored 3 times overall". As I understand, more goals were scored in the past (pre 1960s) than today, so 3 goals were common, and only if these were scored with certain conditions (like in cricket), it was called a hat-trick. As scoring is lower since, hat-tricks became more rare. German wikipedia says that hat-tricks (of the "3 in a row in one half" kind) occurr once in 300 games, and that Bundesliga has seen 87 of these hat-tricks since 1963, about 2 per season only. Both media and fans use terms generously anyway to spice up reports or praise their team, not caring much about oldfashioned, more restricted use for higher merit. --Matthead 16:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

So that's no citation then? Beerathon is right. It is bunk and should be removed. Jooler 17:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary says a "natural hat-trick" is one where three goals are scored in succession by one player in one game. (compare to hat trick, which is three goals by one player in one game.) Also, it has been used by media: see WUSA Weekly report from a site called The Sports Network. It's probably more common in ice hockey, but can be used in football as well, and more common in other countries (ekte hattrick, the Norwegian term, gets 1,170 hits, of 94,600 total, where many would probably be about the webgame). Sam Vimes 18:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources? No problem. How about these:

• Prague Newspaper: "Zunächst hatte Róbert Vittek alle drei Treffer zum 3:0-Heimsieg gegen Duisburg erzielt, dann glückte ihm eine Woche später beim 4:3 in Köln sogar ein lupenreiner Hattrick – innerhalb von nur 17 Minuten." - "First, Vittek scored all 3 goals in the 3:0 win over Duisburg, then, a week later, he succeeded in the 4:3 in Cologne with a flawless hat-trick within only 17 minutes."
• [3] "Vier Tore von Nico Patschinski, darunter ein lupenreiner Hattrick, verhalfen Pauli zum 5:2-Sieg beim nunmehr Letzten, Mannheim. Alle sieben Tore fielen nach der Pause." - "Four goals by Nico Patschinski, among them a flawless hat-trick, helped Pauli win 5:2. All goals were scored in second half."
• [4] "Frankreichs Superstar Michel Platini ... gelang ihm ausgerechnet in seinem Heimatstadion in St. Etienne gegen Jugoslawien binnen 18 Minuten ein lupenreiner Hattrick." - "Platini scored in St. Etienne during EC 1984 a flawless hat-trick within 18 minutes against Yugoslavia". (His 3 goals vs. Belgium were no hat-trick, just 3 goals)
• [5] "Patrick Bengondo. Herr Bengondo wollte wohl nicht mehr selber schiessen. Verständlich, denn er hatte Herrn Coltorti im selben Spiel bereits dreimal besiegt. Dani Wyler hat uns verdankenswerterweise darüber aufgeklärt, dass diese drei Tore kein echter Hattrick gewesen sind. Natürlich hat Herr Wyler den Kalauer mit "Pattrick" dann trotzdem gemacht." - "Dani Wyler pointed out that the 3 goals by Patrick Bengondo were no true hat-trick. But Wyler made the pun about Pat-trick anyway."
• Questionnaire for fans:"Ein Hattrick ist ... wenn ein Spieler 3 Tore in einem Spiel schießt, ohne dass ein anderer dazwischen ebenfalls ein Tor macht. Gelingt das innerhalb einer Halbzeit, ist es ein sogenannter echter Hattrick." - "Hat-trick is when a player scores 3 times without another in between. If this is done within a half, it's a true one."
• [6] "Wir haben den echten und den unechten Hattrick. Der echte ist in einer Halbzeit drei Tore von einem Spieler, der unechte wird über das gesamte Spiel gewertet, da müssen die Tore dann nicht in einer halbzeit fallen." - "There are true and untrue hat-tricks, untrue ones are counted over the whole game"

See also bilingual discussion. I understand that the English use hat-trick for praising each rare occasion that of them scores three times, but elsewhere, the standards for declaring a hat-trick were not watered down: only 3 consecutive goals in one half are a flawless hattrick. All else is "3 goals by player X". --Matthead 18:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm more than satisfied by your sources Matthead - however the section on footballing hat-tricks still needs to be worked on badly. First off, it is clear that there is a division regarding the accepted definition of a hat-trick. But it is not clear exactly how widespread either definition is, and unless someone wants to conduct some research into what every culture on Earth believes to a hat-trick, we're not going to know either! However, it doesn't matter as both definitions seem to be in general use and are therefore valid. Because this is a linguistic issue, neither definition should take precedence. At the moment there is a distinct bias in the article towards the concept of a 'flawless' or 'true' hat-trick'. The statement that this is 'the most common deinition' is not quantifiable and should be removed. Both versions should be stated to be acceptable definitions.

Second, the section about Hurst's hat-trick goes into to much detail, and is poorly written. It is also overtly disparaging to the point that much of its content is irrelevent - and there is clearly an anti-English bias. It is certainly worthy of inclusion but needs to be pared down to the facts as it is too prosaic. (BTW, I'm English and I know it didn't cross the line. But hey, that's football... Hand of God anyone?)

Finally, I question whether the middle paragraph is all that relevant. This is, afterall, an article about scoring 3 goals, not 2 or 4! Beerathon 10:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

This cannot be a serious piece of etymology - can it be deleted?

See the reference at the end. Tintin (talk) 05:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I added some trivia to the sports hat-trick football section but it was removed citing requirement for stats for each country. Whilst this is potentially a possibility surely some form of noteable hat-trick trvia would be worthwhile? A hat-trick of hat-tricks (which I noted only England because cannot vouch for other leagues) is surely worthy of addition to the hat-trick section?

If the number of pieces of trivia were large enough then couldn't a hat-trick trvia by country section be added much like the 'world cup hat-tricks' section?ny156uk 18:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It was me that removed it. We already have fastest hat-trick, and only hat-trick in a World Cup final. I wouldn't object to some more things of that sort, I just didn't want to get into having country-specific stats like fastest in the English Premier League, because otherwise we'd have to do it for all the major countries. Three hat-tricks in three games is interesting, but I would be surprised if it was unique, world-wide. Stephen Turner (Talk) 18:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It may be suitable for Football records in England Tintin (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cricket hat-trick - same batsman dismissed twice

In a local match that I umpired recently the same batsman was dismissed twice in the same hat-trick! (Last man out in the first innings as second consecutive wicket, dismissed in second innings by the same bowler's first ball.) Has this happened in first-class cricket? MulgaBill 09:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate Hat trick (lemieux)

I've heard the more accurate term QUINTELLA, used, so If there are no objections, I will replace the utlimate/super hat tricks etc. in the part with QUINTELLA withing two days. The Evil Clown 18:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Could we get images of three successive balls in which a hat-trick occured ?

or atleast images of some bowlers who got max hat-tricks.Wildpixs 13:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Double hat-trick

Surely a double hat-trick (esp cricket) should involve 6 wickets? I would interpret that as 3 consecutive wickets twice, not 4 wickets counting the 2nd and 3rd twice. Is this actually a recognised term? –MDCollins (talk) 23:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

A quick google throws up Proteas escape after Malinga double hat-trick: "Malinga's late flurry turned the match dramatically as the Sri Lankan paceman claimed Shaun Pollock (13), Andrew Hall (0), Kallis (86), and Makhaya Ntini (0) in consecutive deliveries, to claim the first four-ball hat-trick in one-day international or Test cricket history." I agree it is counter-intuitive, but there are other similar uses of double to mean "a bit more than what is already a lot": in golf#scoring "double eagle" is one better than eagle; and The American Heritage® Dictionary, sense 6. is "Botany: Having many more than the usual number of petals, usually in a crowded or an overlapping arrangement: a double chrysanthemum.". jnestorius^(talk) 21:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Obviously it's catching on in .au, at least: "Double hat-trick can't stop Proteas". The more specific rationale would be that it contains two sequences that, on their own, would constitute a hat-trick. (i.e. Pollock-Hall-Kallis is a hat-trick; Hall-Kallis-Ntini is a hat-trick.) Alai 03:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, a Google books search shows several uses of double hat trick for "six-in-a-row" in cricket.. jnestorius^(talk) 00:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't imagine that sees a lot of application, outside the scope of Jennings stories! But it's certainly one of the (about three distinct) definitions one might plausibly rationalise. Alai 00:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

So it's official... of the three definitions one might suppose "double hat-trick" to have, it's been used to mean each of them on different occasions:

1. Two separate hat-tricks (i.e. three consecutive wickets, twice non-consecutively) [7]
2. Two hat-tricks end-to-end (i.e. six wickets consecutively). jnestorius's suggestion of Google Books Search turns up two in the context of cricket -- both fictional, evidently. For example, [8].
3. Four consecutive wickets (as above).

Bear in mind that contexts other than cricket tend to use it to mean essentially "three of something", regardless of sequence, so a "double hat-trick of tries" (or goals, or anything else) is pretty much necessarily going to always mean "six, but in no particular order". Alai 06:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Using the logic of a double hat-trick being four in four, as wickets 1-2-3 are a h/trick and 2-3-4 are too, then a batsman scoring 101 runs should have a double-century... Or why is the fastest 50/100 counted from the first ball? Why not from any ball, eg a score from 30 to 80 with that being achived in a fewer number of balls than the current record? But I digress. Lugnuts 19:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't put it past some enterprising statistician to start counting "flying start fifties", as well as the conventional sort. Centuries I'd have said had more of the character of an amount, rather than a sequence (apart from that rather key "without getting out" aspect). Pragmatically, it's probably in part because 4 in 4 seems like a "notable thing there's not an accepted name for", whereas 6 in 6 seems like a thing something's not likely to be in need with one. But anyhoo, I'm not here to defend the muddle, just to report it... Alai 04:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Quatrick"?

So does this alleged term see any actual use, or did someone just blog it, create an article, and insert it here? Citation of a reliable source, please. Alai 00:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Self-contradiction

"In the Victorian era, the term "hat trick" referred to a common trick by magicians, where the magician used a top hat. At first, they would appear before the audience wearing the hat, which they would remove from the head and put upside down on a nearby table (on stage). Later in the show, the magician would take out 3 rabbits, one after another, from the hat

[...]

The term is now very commonly used in cricket, and was connected with the custom of giving a hat or cap to a bowler who achieved the feat of taking three wickets in a row. It may be connected with the concept of giving someone their "cap", i.e. acknowledging them as a regular member of a representative team. Another school of thought mentions that a bowler was challenged if he could take three in three. Hats were passed around to collect the odds. The bowler succeeded and collected the large amount of cash. Thus the term hat-trick could have been also derived from this event."

The etymology section authoritatively states two different etymologies for the term, and presents a third in weasel words. Does anyone have any sources for the assertations?86.0.203.120 16:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

hattrick es una jeugo online en el k kompites contra gente de todo el mundo ene spaña actualmente hay ams de 900000 usuarios activos jugando a dicho juego —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.43.122 (talk) 18:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] juego online

hattrick es una jeugo online en el k kompites contra gente de todo el mundo ene spaña actualmente hay ams de 900000 usuarios activos jugando a dicho juego —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.43.122 (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)