Talk:Hassan Kamel Al-Sabbah

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Patent numbers of his many inventions , addition of his journal articles, and other tangible documentation would be most helpful.

Under his Americanized spelling variation of "C. A. Sabbah", the US Patent website has a whole host of patents related to solar cells from the 1920's up to 1934, the year before the person's death.[1] (after you click on the specific patent number, on the next page click "images." I had trouble viewing the imgages on Firefox for the Mac but had no trouble with Safari (Mac).) It's a lot of work to sift through them and as I'm not an expert on this stuff, it's a bit difficult to know what patent applies to which article content. A lot of this seems to be a copy off this article. Some changes probably need to be made. --Oakshade 17:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Oakshade Well done. I had no difficulty reading the patents. I tried to find the patents yesterday, but did not succeed since the patents are too old. I also typed in 'sabbah', but did not get the old ones. Today I noticed that I could extend the search field. Anyway, I am by profession an electrical engineer, and had no difficulty to catogorize the patents. Most of them are power converters, and a few of them are television technology. I cannot, given the time scale, 1930s, estimate the 'value' of his patents. In the article you mentioned, there should be patents related to space industry technology (27) and solar cars. I could not find them. If I add all the patents mentioned in the article, I find more than the 43 patents listed by the USPTO. That gives us something to do. Other name, may be? Elikahn 12:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

One puzzel has been solved: his 'space technology' inventions. In US 1,927,807, granted 1926, entitled 'Space Discharge Apparatus', the inventor discloses a special electron tube. The term space industry as mentioned in the article has nothing to do with rockets or missiles, but vacuum (vacuum room=space) tubes. Elikahn 12:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sources

[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] -unsigned addition by [[Embargo]

The unsigned editor who added the sources above should read them. They are mostly copies of each other and only one makes any claims to what was invented. That one (nooralislam) does not seem reliable for wiki citations. USPTO citations would be more valuable than rah-rah boosterism. Mohummy 03:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking at your contributions, you're not exactly eligible to talk about what sources are reliable for wikipedia. It seems all of your edits are of bad faith. Maybe one should get a life and stop editing an already discredited (because of people like you) encyclopaedia from multiple accounts. Emбargo 04:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Good faith is a good attribute. But when you are contributing to wikipedia, one might expect a critical mind. For example, I wrote that the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers was founded in 1963, while in the article we read he was a fellow of that Institute in the 30s. This, I think, needs a further explanation.

I could find 43 patents granted by the USPTO in his name; I also read all the patents. Of course you can claim in good faith that 70 US patents have been granted, but then I may ask for a relliable source, preferably the USPTO (also in good faith). I think that until all 70 US patents have been found, we must stick to 43 found US patents.

I did not find any reliable source for the claim that he invented solar energy. Elikahn 06:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current State

While I agree that the grandiose claims of inventing the solar cell has not yet been established and the original version was based on a poorly written "readers opinion" article, the current reliable sources do show this was a scientist that's currently held in high esteem in Lebanaon and Lebanese dispursa. There is even a street in Beirut named after this person. It seems a user is setting this up for an AfD. That's fine but the sources regarding the assertation of notability should not be removed as they shouldn't from any article. --Oakshade 20:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a perfectly reasonable article now. No grandiose claims yet still pointing out his birthplace, education, career, and patents. It certainly doesn't deserve AfD but it did require editing. 131.107.0.74 22:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm suspecting there are socks active in removing what is now innocuous material that's sourced no less. This might require 3rd party action. --Oakshade 22:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
To further the above statement, the current article is only stating that some of his patents " were innovations in solar energy and television tubes" and this innocuous sentence is sourced by the Lebanese government [7] and the very prestigious Arab American Institute [8]. The article is not claiming he invented solar cells or anything else. There seems to be a concerted effort by either one user using a bunch of SPA socks to remove anything positive from this article even if it is sourced. --Oakshade 23:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The articles you are citing are copies of each other, either one is plagarizing the other or they have the same author. Neither backs up their claims in the least. All it would take is a link to the US patent office web cite for one or more patents. 148.65.24.76 02:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
That's quite a charge at the reliable sources. Do you have any evidence that the Lebanese governement was "plagarizing" the Arab American Institute or vice versa and didn't write their material independently? And the sentence is not a specific claim and even at that it is fully supported by both reliable sources. Another possible sock. --Oakshade 03:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
You mean, besides that the section on people that is relevant here is identical in both articles. In fact, the paragraphs before and after are also completely identical. One is a copy of the other. Either its the same author or someone is using another's work without crediting it. Please try to answer the question that has been presented rather than these incredibly weak cites. Also, I'm not a sock of Elikahn. 148.65.24.76 03:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm leaving the stronger one of the two identical cites though it doesn't seem to have any support for the claim made but at least it has an identifiable author unlike the other identical one. 148.65.24.76 03:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Point taken on the duplicates. However this is becoming a case of "I don't believe the reliable source," in this case being the Arab American Institute. Sorry, I'll go with a reliable source and not a user who seems hell bent on deleting an article of what appears to be a highly esteemed person in their country. --Oakshade 03:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


In [9] I counted 34 US patents in the name of Sabbah. The article claims 43 (I have changed that), and the Lebanese reference (1) claims 52 patent applications. Of course an application is not a granted patent, and the mentioned applications could be outside of the US. I reread the cited 34 US, and could not find anything regarding solar energy. To be honest if the claim of his patents on electrical solar energy would be true, we would have to rewrite all electrical engineering textbooks, since electrical solar energy became possible in 1940 with the invention of the P-n junction. See for example solar energy. The invention of the p-n junction is usually attributed to Russell Ohl of Bell Laboratories, see (US2402662, "Light sensitive device"). So I think that you have to provide a very reliable source in order to support the claim; the ones given are not good enough for such a substantial claim. Elikahn 11:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The current slaim is not that he invented solar energy, only that he made inovations in that and television tubes. Nothing else. That is supported by relible sources. I'm sorry you don't belive the sources, but your POV is not a basis to delete content. --Oakshade 15:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Just show me the patent numbers of his innovations on solar energy. I could not find them, and you claim that there are patents that desctribe his innovation on solar energy. Again just show me the numbers. The USPTO is a very reliable source, and not many people will dispute them. In your 'very reliable' source even the number of Sabbah's patents are incorrect. Also you wrote "Among the patents were innovations in solar energy and television tubes are a type of." This sounds strange. A type of what? Are television tubes a type of solar energy? What do you mean? Do you understand, as a BA, what you write and what the implications for engineering/physics history are? BTW, I am not a sock of 148.65.24.76, so please remove your comment on the web site. Elikahn

Thanks for the sentence correction. For the statement "Among the patents were innovations in solar energy and television tubes", I didn't make that statment, the Arab American Institute did. That's all. I actually counted 42 patents related to this person (compiling all of them now). As for socks, the article has been assulted by a slew of anon and SPA users who all have the same agenda and language. I've never seen anything like that before. Anyway, there's a suspected sockpuppet case open. An admin will decide. I can't remove the suspected sockpuppet speculation with the case pending. --Oakshade 16:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Do not only count the patents, but preferably read them. If you find one on solar energy etc, please let me know so that we can update the article. Elikahn 16:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patents

Here are links to 41 actual USPTO patents and their titles related to this person (I probably missed a couple). While electricity conversions ones (most of them) don't contain the word "solar", they are mostly applicable to solar electricity conversion. That's what the original content was about. I think it's a stretch to say this person "invented the solar cell", but not at all to say the person was an innovator. In addition, at least two of these are directly related to the development of television.
[10] (pressure control apparatus) [11] (vapor electric arc apparatus) [12] ((vapor electric device, with L. Robinson) [13] (rectifying system) [14] (transmissions of pictures and views) [15] (transmissions of pictures and views) [16] (rectifying system, with H.D. Brown) [17] (system of distribution, with H.D. Brown) [18] (TV) [19] (vapor electric device) [20] (power converting apparatus) [21] (apparratus for measuring pressure) [22] (electric power converting apparatus) [23] (power converting apparatus) [24] (power converting apparatus) [25] (constant current translating circuits) [26] (electric discharge device) [27] (electric discharge device) [28] (electric power converting apparatus) [29] (space discharge device, with H.D. Brown) [30] (measurement of rectifying voltages) [31] (electric translating circuits) [32] (electric power converting apparatus) [33] (power converting apparatus) [34] (electric valve converting apparatus) [35] (means for preventing unbalance in rectifier compounding system) [36] (electric valve converting apparatus) [37] (electric valve converting system) [38] (electric valve converting apparatus) [39] (electric valve converting system) [40] (electric valve converting apparatus) [41] (electric valve converting system) [42] (electric valve converting system and excitation apparatus thereafter) [43] (electric valve converting system) [44] (electric valve converting system and excitation apparatus thereafter) [45] (rectifier compounding system) [46] (glow discharge means for temperature control) [47] (electric power converting apparatus) [48] (cathode ray photographic apparatus) [49] (vapor electric device) [50] (electric discharge device) --Oakshade 17:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Great. As said I already read all these patents. But again the #1 quesion, which of these patents deals with solar energy? It seems a little bit far fetched to say that if somebody invents a power conversion unit to conlude he added to the knowledge of solar energy. Come on, give me a break. A power conversion unit has something to do with, for example, conversion from ac to dc electricity or vice versa, or high voltage to low voltage. Elikahn 17:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Later today when I have time I'm going to see if the established users at Wikipedia:WikiProject Science can weigh in on this. --Oakshade 17:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

After deleting the propaganda in previous versions, I do not think that Mr. Sabbah is of sufficient notability to warrant his bio in the Wikipedia. He does not meet the criteria for Creative professionals: scientists, academics, economists, professors, or authors.

    • The person is not regarded as an important figure and is not widely cited by their peers or successors.
    • The person is not known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
    • The person has not created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
    • The person's work either (a) has not become a significant monument, (b) has not been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has not won significant critical attention.

In view of the above, it is better to delete this article. Elikahn 11:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


I am an electrical engineer and solar energy professional. I looked over the patents listed above. Considering that not a single one of them claims to convert light to electricity, any claims to his inventing the solar cell are far-fetched without additional evidence (and sorry, but socio-political organizations are not credible sources for scientific information). As for the less specific claim that he made contributions in the field of solar energy ... well, maybe. All of the power converter patents deal in some way with converting DC power to AC power, which is a task performed routinely in photovoltaic solar energy systems. The piece of equipment that performs this task is called an inverter; however, inverters are very important in the field of power electronics and are used for a wide range of purposes, solar energy being a rather minor application in the grand scheme of things. Al-Sabbah could not consciously have been working on solar energy systems in 1930 because useful solar cells did not yet exist, and even if they had, inverters were not important in solar energy systems until the 1970s. In addition, the vacuum tube technology underlying his inventions has been entirely supplanted by solid-state semiconductor electronics, at least where inverters are concerned, and the two types of circuits typically require entirely different design techniques. It's possible that his innovations have had some impact on modern inverters, but it seems quite unlikely. Without further supporting evidence, Al-Sabbah's contributions to solar energy would appear to be marginal at best and entirely incidental.

This is taking nothing away from the man's accomplishments -- he was obviously very talented and made noteworthy contributions to the technology of his day. In my opinion, attributing work to him that he did not and could not have performed is highly disrespectful in that it implies that his true accomplishments are unworthy of note. Others' opinions may vary....--Squirmymcphee 16:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Squirmymcphee, thank you for sharing your obviously knowledgeable opinion on the topic. I've been speculating the same thing. It doesn't seem he invented solar cells or contributed to the development of them, at least his patents don't indicate that, but he was nevertheless talented. I too find it odd that some periodicals have made grandiose claims like him being "father of the solar cell" as such claims only cloud his real accomplishments. He does appear highly regarded in Lebanon (a street in Beirut is called "Hassan Kamel Sabbah Street" [51]), but that high regard might be for the wrong reasons. Interesting case. --Oakshade 21:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD

This article is now being discussed at AfD DGG (talk) 00:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The AfD was speedy closed. It likely will be AfD'd again (not by me). --Oakshade 00:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Edited the text since there are no US patents describing TV tubes; the patents listed in a previous text describe TV transmission systems (which, by the way, is a compltetely different field). 130.161.182.174 09:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Text was adjusted to TV transmissions as that's what the US patents indicate. --Oakshade 18:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The text 'Among the patents were reported innovations in solar energy[1] and television transmission.[1][2][3][4]', is false. It should read, for example, as I indicated, but changed by you: 'Among patents reported in [1] were undiscovered patents in solar energy and television tubes'. Pls, Oakshade, do not change the improvements of the text, since it it very clear your re-edits are false . Clearly, [1] mentions patents related to solar energy and TV tubes and not TV signal transmission. Also [2][3][4] do not discuss solar energy. Elikahn 19:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

234 discuss television transmissions, not solar energy. The patents are television transmissions. Elikahn, perhaps you didn't notice, but the text was changed from "and television tubes" to "and television transmission".
On the point about solar energy, I don't see support of the patents in solar energy claims. A reliable source makes that claim, but the article correctly states that the patents can't be found. That is a balanced WP:NPOV presentation of the topic. --Oakshade 19:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that you changed the text back again. Great, much better. Now the question, is why you specifically cite the TV patents. What is so special about them and not about the other patents? It is better to remove these citations, I think.Elikahn 15:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Because the Arab American Institute cited innovations in TV, and patents for TV in 1925 is very early for that medium. --Oakshade 20:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)