Talk:Hashshashin

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A Winner of the September 2005 West Dakota Prize

This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.

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Contents 1 Chaos Theory?? 2 Would like to remove 3 Exhaustive 4 Even more exhaustive 5 FYI 6 Also check out 7 Attempted Conversion 8 Casual Reader recommends for deletion 9 Reference for this? 10 Al-da'wa al-jadīda spelled wrong in Arabic? 11 Para on links with knights Templar 12 why hypocritical? 13 Influences 14 Possible Reference from Herbert's Dune 15 Drugs or not? 16 Daftary or not? 17 Overall Article Tone 18 Hashshashin dagger 19 Grass or Booze? 20 Neutrality of this article is disputed 21 Moved 22 Sources 23 interesting linguistic analysis 24 Change the name of the article? 25 Conflicts with Crusaders 26 Daylam Mountains 27 This trivia section has become a bit ridiculous 28 Legend 29 Post-Islamic Persia 30 On the Use of Hashish 31 Twinkies? 32 Copyvio text? 33 Leader's Name

[edit] Chaos Theory??

The reference to "chaos theories" in the history section is either vandalism or a mistake. Perhaps someone meant "conspiracy theories", but in that case a reference is needed. comment added by 19 April 2008 by user Lee Sawyer

[edit] Would like to remove

I would like to remove the following text--or radically edit it:

The power of the Hashshashin was destroyed by the Mongol warlord Hulagu Khan, but several smaller sects remain to this day, such as the sect led by the Aga Khan.

Are we saying that the group that accepts Aga Khan are "Hashashin"? Or followers of Hasan Ibn Sabah, even? 67.119.12.107 23:40, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, actually. A lot of what we know of the later history of the Assassin branch of the Ismailis comes from a court case in India in 1866, in a case taking almost a month of court time, in which much of their later history was put into the record. The presiding judge found that the Indian Ismailis, the Khojas, were "bound by ties of spiritual allegiance to the hereditary Imams of the Ismailis", the latest of whom was the Aga Khan. The trial and results are discussed in detail in Bernard Lewis, The Assassins, pp. 15-17. Noel (talk) 21:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Exhaustive

Informative and lively account of an interesting people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 23:20, 20 March 2005 (talk • contribs) 81.157.164.47

[edit] Even more exhaustive

Addressed 67.119.12.107's concerns. Added much interesting history, many wikilinks, carefully revised original text somewhat for style and consistancy. Started to introduce sources (The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf is highly recommended). Well done to whoever wrote the original body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.27.165 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 30 March 2005

[edit] FYI

In the next few days I'm going to completely restructure this article (as well as many of the Ismaili articles on Wikipedia). I've been studing the Ismailies (in particular the Nizariyyah) for a very long time, and I've got a lot of information to add to this article.

FYI, the best resources for the Nizari Ismailies is Farhad Daftary's "The Isma'ilies, Their History and Doctrines", and Bernard Lewis' "The Assasins" if you have any comments, feel free to add them.--Venerable Bede 03:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Also check out

I also suggest checking out Farhad Daftary's "The Assassin Legends: Myths of the Ismailies" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 23:07, 8 May 2005 (talk • contribs) 69.156.153.207

[edit] Attempted Conversion

If the Hashashin really had attempted to convert to Christianity, it was selfish and hypocritical of the Knights Templar if they had prevented them from doing so. Anglius 02:00, 2 June 2005

As far as I know only some of the Hashshashin wished to convert to Christianity, and there were political reasons for the Knights Templar to prevent that. Aran|heru|nar 13:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Mr. Heru. They were not so holy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anglius (talk • contribs) 02:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Casual Reader recommends for deletion

However, assassination and terror are often major components of Arab and Israeli politics.

This is a strange mention. Whether or not assassination is universally employed to achieve political goals is arguable insofar as we define "universally". Political terrorism is also not exclusive to Middle Eastern politics. Off of the top of my head, in Russia, Ireland/Great Britain, Indonesia, South Asia, Japan, many states in Africa, France, Germany, and Italy, terrorism has played a significant role in political struggles. It seems this statement is too topical. Yes, Middle Eastern terrorism is an issue of the day, but this formulation is inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.181.68.98 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 21 July 2005

[edit] Reference for this?

I have removed this line from the section comparing the Hashashin to Al-Qaida as I couldn't find anything to back it up.

Moreover, confirmed culprits so far for 9-11 and the Madrid Bombs were all drug-users.

Xebedee 18:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Al-da'wa al-jadīda spelled wrong in Arabic?

I always thought that in Arabic the adjectives come after the nouns but according to this article it's "al-da'wa al-jadīda (الجديدة الدعوة)". Al-da'wa means "the doctrine" and is spelled الدعوة and al-jadīda is equivalent to "new" and is spelled الجديدة. But because Arabic reads from right to left al-da'wa al-jadīda should read الدعوةالجديدة and not الجديدة الدعوة. Am I correct in saying this? I'm going to change it for now until someone either realizes that I'm mistaken or comments back that I'm correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cowabunga5587 (talk • contribs) 00:21, 18 December 2005

Your correction on the order of adjective and noun are correct, but translating ad-da'oua as "doctrine" strikes me as quite peculiar. New Preaching, New Summons (in a religious sense), New Mission (as religious mission, e.g. missionaries), the New Call - these all strike me as decent translations, but doctrine? Where did you get that? (Collounsbury 07:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)).

Yeah sorry bout that i'm only recently studying arabic, but my main point was for the order of the words Mike 20:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Para on links with knights Templar

Don't really feel qualified to enter this myself but anyone with the right information could, perhaps a paragraph on the suspected Templar/Hashassin link should be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.48.118 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 20 March 2006

This is an absolute minefield as almost everything anyone has written about this is probably speculative. The only thing we do know about is that Templar and Hashashin strongholds were close to each other, that there was an balance or power between them and that there was an indicent in which Templars ambushed and killed some Hashashin ambassadors, I think. Speculation is rife. Maugre believes the Templars were hand in glove with the Hashashin and modelled themselves on them. Others say the Templars gained Sufic and other mystical ideas from them. Others that they were parallel spiritual sects - both warrior-monk types with powerful military and financial might, independent of most authorities and in pursuit of mystical knowledge. We just don't know. ThePeg 17:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why hypocritical?

why hypocritical? If anything the Templars practised a perverted form of christianity if not out right heresy as were the grounds for their destruction by the King of France and Pope —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.48.118 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 20 March 2006

[edit] Influences

Just a quick comment on the Influences section saying the Terry Pratchett Assassins are based on the historical group. This is a very tenuous link; the Discworld Assassins are trained at what amounts to a public school and have no ideology or agenda to promote, with no goal except to make money and to look good. You may as well say they're based on the Ninja, the cultural differences are vast. They share a name and that seems to be about it, as the historical Assassins never exactly had the monopoly on stealthy murder. I'll leave it up to the regular contributers to decide if it should be deleted or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.148.37 (talk • contribs) 09:54, 13 May 2006

I really don't think that the Assassin's guild in Discworld is based on the Haschhashin since in the book pyramids they are mentioned too. As the "only group of assassins that will kill you laughing hysterically at their own reflection in the daggers thy're killing you with". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.254.16.115 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 3 February 2007

Why Hypocritical? I find this comment tendentious in that the Vatican itself has recently admitted it's persecution of the Knights Templar to have been unfounded and the Order to have been innocent of the charges brought against it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.115.27 (talk) 16:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Reference from Herbert's Dune

It has been some time since I read Dune by Frank Herbert but if I recall correctly Paul Mau'dib had an army of what were called Feydakin, a corruption of the Hashshashin's name for themselves. The Feydakin were religeous soldiers who worshipped Paul as a god and would follow his orders, like the Hashshashin, unto death. I also believe there was an initiation involving a drug but to become feydakin but my memory of that is unclear at best. I'll read into it a little when I get the time to confirm or deny this. There may be further references to them as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonzaisuru (talk • contribs) 02:14, 22 June 2006

The Fedaykin were indeed followers of Paul Muad'dib Atreides, and Fremen, or natives of Arrakis (the desert wasteland planet). As Fremen, they grew up with more or less constant exposure to Spice, which is a drug that eventually gives people certain psychic or prescient abilities. I don't remember if the Fedaykin took extra doses of spice (as in drinking the Water of Life), but they certainly had enough spice over their lifetimes to turn their eyes that weird glowing blue of the Fremen people. Pterodactyl katya 04:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drugs or not?

I took out the following:

It has now come to light by many historians that there is no actual proof or historical fact that show that the so called "Assasins" actually used hashish. It was actually considered a sin by the sect to use such drugs.

because it duplicates what is already said by Edward Burman as quoted in the article; and it doesn't cite any of these "many historians". If you want to put it back in, please cite at least one source! Andrew Dalby 09:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Daftary or not?

I removed the long review of Daftary's book, which was copied (apparently without permission) from [1]. I inserted a mention of the book, and a link to the review, under 'References'. Andrew Dalby 14:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the section about parallels with Al Qaeda has disappeared. This may be for the best, but I point it out in case anyone wants to reinstate it. Andrew Dalby 14:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overall Article Tone

As someone with a passing familiarity with the medieval Near East, I have to say that this article reads like the reader is already familiar with the subject matter. For example, I'm not altogether certain what this sect was, a small group of religious fanatics, or a small state? What with all the talk of 'power bases' and 'citadels' Perhaps this could be addressed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.207.172.182 (talk • contribs) 14:08, 29 July 2006

[edit] Hashshashin dagger

In the text, there is a mention to the use of a "Hashshashin dagger". How exactly does on of these things look like? I mean, what were their distinctive symbols? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorum (talk • contribs) 16:33, 18 October 2006

Apparently the blade was triangular. This was one of the distinctive things about them. That's all I know, I'm afraid. ThePeg 17:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any reference regarding to the claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorum (talk • contribs) 09:45, 10 October 2007

[edit] Grass or Booze?

"However, there are those who dispute this etymology, arguing that it originates from Marco Polo's account of his visit to Alamut in 1273, in which he describes a drug whose effects are more like those of alcohol than of hashish."

There isn't really much difference, especially after you translate someone's recollection of getting wasted from 1000 years ago. In fact Opium is a more plausible explanation than alcohol, the explicitly Haram status of alcohol lead to hashish being the Arab world's intoxicant of choice from the mid 7th century until the present day, it wouldn't be surprising if Opium was also commonly consumed during the Middle Ages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.102.215 (talk • contribs) 06:05, 21 November 2006

[edit] Neutrality of this article is disputed

This article is an attack on the Shia Nizari Ismaili Muslim community, by twisting and misrepresenting a part of its history. Altough it lists a number of books as references, the article invents more than it reflects from verifiable sources. It needs to be cleaned up and brought into line with Wikipedia standards. -- Aylahs ^(talk) 21:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is just giving a bad idea to people about Muslims. And those were the crusades. Almost EVERYTHING was violent then. Iman S1995 23:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The article mentions nothing about the Nizari or muslim beliefs, nor does it present the Hashshashin as exceptionally violent or bloodthirsty, nor does it portray murder or terror as a primary tenet of either Middle Eastern lifestyle or of Islam. What precisely is the problem? 164.67.226.47 23:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is, if anything swayed towards the muslim side slightly. There is no attack involved. Stating some unsavory yet true and verifiable facts about a group of people is not an attack (outside of the muslim world at least). If the truth offends you then I say shame on you. nefariousski —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.246.98.254 (talk) 14:01, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved

I moved the following over here, since it does not fit in with the article. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A group known as the Fedayeen were active from the 8th to the 14th century, and were described by their enemies as hashshāshīn: "those who habitually use hashish" (The name "assassin" is commonly believed to be a mutation of the Arabic "haššāšīn" (حشّاشين, "hashish-eaters"). However, there are those who dispute this etymology, arguing that it originates from Marco Polo's account of his visit to Alamut in 1273, in which he describes a drug whose effects are more like those of alcohol than of hashish. It is suggested by some writers that assassin simply means 'followers of Al-Hassan' (or Hasan bin Sabbah, the Sheikh of Alamut (see below). Others suggest that since hashish-eaters were generally ostracized in the middle ages the word "Hashshashin" had become a common synonym for "outlaws". So the attribution of Hassan's Ismaili sect with this term is not necessarily a clue for drug usage. Some common accounts of their connection with hashish are that these "assassins" would take hashish before missions in order to calm themselves; others say that it helped to boost their strength, and turned them into madmen in battle. Yet other accounts state it was used in their initiation rites in order to show the neophyte the sensual pleasures awaiting him in the afterlife. The connection between their mysticism and that drug is not something subject to reliable or consistent historical accounts; this is not surprising given their secrecy and infamy

Hashish doesn't make you a madman in battle! I actually has an opposite effect (its a pacifier if anything).--Skatewalk 04:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Hi, I added some sources while browsing this article. However it didn't cater to all of the "citation needed" tags so I left those open to anybody who can cite a source for them (it would be useful if somebody here is fluent in arabic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.63.138 (talk • contribs) 16:41, 21 February 2007

[edit] interesting linguistic analysis

This is an interesting source I am removing from Libricide as it doesnt fit within that article:

Nunberg, G. "The Time of the Assassins". NPR "Fresh Air" Commentary, Air date February 20,2004. [2]

John Vandenberg 13:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change the name of the article?

Alamut Assasins? (the name used is proven wrong and misleading)--Skatewalk 04:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not Assassins (Sect), since they are not always affiliated to their "headquarter" in Alamut? Or even just Assassins, and removing the redirection of Assassins to Assassination.TerreOcre 22:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, "Assassins" is their most commonly used name in English (see, e.g. the titles of the Hodgson, Lewis, etc books, which are all the standard references in English on this subject. So I would definitely support a move to Assassins (sect) - or even to Assassins, actually - 'What links here' for Assassins shows quite a few articles to that name, many of which are for the sect. If nobody objects, I will make this move in a week or so. Noel (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, now that I look into it in a little more detail, I think probably we should move the article to Assassins (sect), and make Assassins a redirect to either Assassins (disambiguation) or the article about the sect (I would suggest the former, but I don't care that much which).

My reasoning for suggesting that Assassins should be a redirect is that a lot of people are being lazy, and just linking to 'Assassins', without bothering to check to see where that ends up, when they really want the movie or the musical or the band, etc, etc, etc. So if Assassins is a redirect, then it's really easy to every so often go along and check its 'what links here', secure in the knowledge that everything that links there is bogus, and parcel them out to their correct actual destinations, without having to look through a whole flock of valid links to find the few that have recently been added which are erroneous. Comments? Noel (talk) 22:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I've cleaned up a lot of the bad links to Assassins, but having gone through almost all of them, I'm more sure than ever that Assassins ought to wind up at a disambiguation page (either directly or indirectly), and not be the page for the sect. There are way too many people linking to Assassins without checking to see what they are getting; I'd guess 75% of them were to the musical, the movie, the band, etc, etc. No single target for Assassins would be correct for more than a small percentage, which to me says 'disambiguation' very strongly. Noel (talk) 02:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

No disagreement having been posted, I have re-targeted Assassins to the disambig page. Comments on the proposed rename of this page to Assassins (sect) are now solicited. Noel (talk) 13:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicts with Crusaders

The introduction states that the Assassins specialised in terrorising Crusaders, which is contradicted by the next sentence. The latter corresponds to what I have heard many times. Their main adversaries were Muslim rulers. Apparently, they have assassinated only a few Crusaders, the most prominent one being Raymond II of Tripoli. I suggest to replace "the Crusaders" with "their adversaries". The wording "specialise in terrorising" is probably too exaggerated too.TerreOcre 22:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Daylam Mountains

It says in the article that Almut is located in the Daylam mountains, shouldn't it be the Alborz Mountains.Bahador —Preceding comment was added at 19:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This trivia section has become a bit ridiculous

I'm being bold and am going to dramatically trim the trivia section. I don't think we need to list every historical instance in which the word "Hashshashin" is used in popular literature, movies, games, etc.... It's hardly noteworthy when a video game's storyline is "based" on this group, depicting them in a historically inaccurate manner. Same goes for some of these books. Basically, this section is just junking up the article and is very unencyclopedic. AlphaEta^{T / C} 14:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legend

Well, this whole story is a legend; this has been documented http://books.google.com/books?id=V2PisfCC7gkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:Farhad+inauthor:Daftary&sig=le8fkpQ6RepvOrm7pLrnYyyKnTE please don't take everything that videogames take for granted JB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.115.66 (talk) 05:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

This is all based on the Secret Society of the Assassins. The name taken from the Arabic word meaning Hashish smokers. The main story talks about a Spanish Cardinal coming to the leader and asking him to give up his beliefs and join them. "the Old Man of the Mountain" then pointed to a cloaked figure who stood atop a tower and simply waved. The figure then jumped to his death. He turned to the Cardinal and said "I have 70,000 people across the world waiting to do this at my command." The Cardinal promptly left. The Assassins were lead to believe if they completed their task they would be sent directly to paradise. A belief still held buy Muslim sects. Assassins spent their entire lives getting close to their kill, becoming the right hand man so to speak of the target. Then when the moment was right they would make the kill, if killed before they could escape they were sent paradise. This isn't from a video game like the person above says, they don't read many books apparently. Turn off the TV and read people, life is beyond what the liberal government controlled media tells you. Be a seeker and find the truth, pull the wool from your eyes and see the world for what it is. STOP WATCHING CELEBRITY BS AND LEAD YOUR OWN LIFE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.148.170 (talk) 07:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Some parts of the stories told about the Assassins are untrue myth, indeed. But if you read careful, scholarly, books like Hodgson and Lewis, you will discover that the Assassins (the usual Western name for them) were a sect which had dedicated agents who killed many leading men of the powers who opposed them. So it's not all made up. Noel (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Post-Islamic Persia

Someone asked: "What is Post-Islamic Persia? Post-Islamic would imply that Islam no longer exists." Post-Islamic Persia describes the region following the influx and influence of Islam (i.e. Iran). Because it does appear to indicate "after" Islam, it can be confusing, but it actually means "after Islam has arrived," and has found common usage in modern vernacular. Regards, AlphaEta 16:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the Use of Hashish

I will have to question that. My reason is, Hashish is a hallucinogenic drug. Correct me if I'm wrong but, wouldn't the use of hallucinogenic drugs by people who work for modern secret organizations get them fired? I mean, sensitive jobs such as intelligence gathering, espionage, etc, would be severely compromised by someone high on that stuff. If wanting to bring down a specific target, by using realistic methods such as planting poison, using a woman seduce and kill, etc, don't know about anyone else out there but I think the use of Hashish would be a very bad idea in such sensitive operations and that the word "assassin" comes from "Hashayashiyin" makes absolutely no sense to me. Took the liberty to read about Hashish on the World Book encyclopedia, and the entry on that Encyclopedia states that after the hallucinations, Hashish leaves individuals a bit...... out of it to put it mildly. I think some historic revision is in order, because it also needs to be taken into consideration that the religion of Islam strictly forbids the consumption of any mind or body altering drugs. With the exception of coffee; coffee is okay. I mean, the Arab Muslims drink more coffee than water.... 206.63.78.91 (talk)stardingo747 —Preceding comment was added at 03:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The hashish was used not constantly simply to drug them and convince them they were in paradise. After they were convinced that they would go to paradise for completing their work they wouldn't smoke again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.148.170 (talk) 07:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Twinkies?

The sect's own extant accounts tell of Rashid ad-Din Sinan, stealing into Saladin's tent in the heart of his camp, and leaving a poisoned Hostess Twinkie and a note saying "You are in our power" on Saladin's chest as he slept.

I suspect this was a malicious edit. Last I checked, neither Hostess nor Hostess Twinkies existed in the 12th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.52.225 (talk) 23:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

haha, you think dumbass? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.87.207.1 (talk) 00:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio text?

This edit by an anonymous user (202.83.175.35 (talk · contribs)) seems to have added a bunch of probably copyrighted material; the block of text added starts with:

This is an edited version of an article that was originally published in Medieval Islamic Civilization, An Encyclopaedia, Vol. I, p. 72-73, ed. Josef W. Meri, Routledge (New York-London, 2006)

Unless someone can prove we have rights to use this text, I'm going to delete it all as a copyvio (pity, it's well-written - although out of place, some of its clearly introductory material). Any feel like incorporating any useful info from this addition to the rest of the article? Noel (talk) 22:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, hearing no objections, I've gone ahead and done it. BTW, here is the identical text online at the Institute of Ismaili Studies web-site, prominently marked as "Copyright 2007". Noel (talk) 19:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Leader's Name

The article uses inconsistent names for the leader of the sect, at the top is mentions him as "Hasan i Sabbah", and for most of the rest, it is "Hassan-i-Sabah", both point to the same wikipedia entry, so presumably they are both the same person. Someone please make this consistent. I would, but I don't know which one is proper. IsmAvatar (talk) 02:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The WP article about him actually uses a different spelling, Hasan-i Sabbah, which seems to be the correct transliteration from Persian. Also, I looked up Bernard Lewis' book (which is something of an authoritative text on the subject) and he also spells the name as Hasan-i Sabbah. So probably that is the spelling that should be used in this article for consistency purposes. Nsk92 (talk) 03:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The difference is purely stylistic, although arguably the linked up version is clearer. Neither is "more correct" as such. (collounsbury (talk) 16:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC))