Talk:Hashim Thaçi

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[edit] On categories

This man is a living criminal and living terrorist. He should be pleced in some group of biographies "war criminals", like Osama Bin LAden and other muslim criminals who killed lots of peoples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.119.107 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Category:War criminals is for people convicted of war crimes. Neither this man, nor Osama Bin Laden, have been convicted of anything like that so far. -- int19h 07:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thaci / Thaçi

Any objection on moving the article from "Hashim Thaci" to "Hashim Thaçi" ? - Regards, Evv 22:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

None from here. I thought about doing that last night while I was swapping out the Thaqi spelling within the article, but ended up not doing it because it wasn't clear why Thaci was chosen as the article title, and I was planning to find out if it was because that may be the accepted transliteration into English. I have never been a fan of transliterating proper nouns at all, though, so if there's general acceptance of using Thaçi I'd be in favour. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Since there hasn't been any objection and Albanian is written with Latin alphabet, thus no transliteration is needed, just diacritical marks - I have moved the content to Hashim Thaçi and redirected from here. --78.1.109.49 14:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your cut-&-paste move, 78.1.109.49. Please, read Help:Moving a page. - Best regards, Ev 23:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Moved. Duja► 11:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It is still a different spelling. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A section on accusations of war crimes necessary

It is not proper to let this reputation of this person to be left unblemished with the fact that he is, for many people, a war criminal. At least the fact he is controversial should be placed here. Not being convicted does not mean that he is innocent.--193.194.63.129 (talk) 12:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accusations of criminal activity

There are serious accusations made in the article that Thaci controlled 10-15% of criminal activity in 1997. This is baseless and just because some random guy says that in an website without citing his sources even does not make it true. I'm removing that part until further, more serious citations are found from more established media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.94.133.130 (talk) 02:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a reliable source. The KLA has a long record of criminal activity. --Hereward77 (talk) 17:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Really! Your last statement seems to be written like gospel rather than a proper referenced argument. Putting a very serious accusation, against an elected Prime Minister of an emerging state, with only a single highly dubious source as supporting evidence is scandalous. I propose this paragraph is immediately taken off if no other sources to substantiate the claim are found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.199.76 (talk • contribs) 00:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I looked around on the internet and didn't find any other source about this. Just one article without sources or references. And some copies of the same article. So I am removing part of it. Shqarthi (talk) 04:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Shqarthi

It is a reliable Turkish news site, so I doubt it has any agenda to push against your people. --Hereward77 (talk) 00:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Your people?!? "Our people" spent 500 years fighting against the Turks. In any case, the nationality of the author is beside the point. The main point here is that a serious accusation has been put in article that many people are likely to read and reference in the coming days, when Kosova will declare independence, even though no other source can be found to substantiate these claims. This is scandalous, and it waters down the whole authority of Wikipedia as a reliable reference source - and being a big contributor, supporter and donor of Wikipedia, this is not something I am willing to tolerate quietly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.199.76 (talk • contribs) 00:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. It's irrelevant: what was in the article was plagiarized from a copyrighted source. Don't do that. Also, that source obviously is of questionable credibility, so if you want to add some more substantive mention of criminal activity - which, frankly, seems both possible and pertinent to the article - please use a different source. (By the way, the whole "your people/our people" discussion is hilarious: if you wonder why people use the Balkans as a metaphor for petty, interminable bickering, that's precisely it.) Ossicle (talk) 08:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Nothing was plagiarised, and I'm not from from the Balkans. Axis Globe is a credible news analysis source and has interviewed leading European politicians. Thaci is a communist terrorist whose Kosovo Liberation Army is the military wing of the Albanian mafia and has ties to al-Qaeda. --Hereward77 (talk) 17:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Huh. Maybe you don't know what plagiarism is: changing the punctuation but keeping all the words in the EXACT same order doesn't count as paraphrasing. Revert this again and I'll tag it as vandalism: repeatedly uploading copyrighted material. Seriously, look it up. WP:VAND As far as the rest of it - If you want to assert that he's a criminal (Which, again, I have no reason to doubt, given that I don't care one way or the other.) please rely on a credible source. I don't know anything about "Axis Globe," but if they're the ONLY source for this information on the internet they can't serve as source material accusing a head of state of criminal activity: "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources."WP:SOURCES Ossicle (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

There, I found an apparently well-sourced article that alleges criminal activity and included that.Ossicle (talk) 23:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I did some copyediting of the block quote from Axis Globe. I also took out the information about the two attacks on Serbian policemen. I don't see how that is related to criminal activities, as opposed to insurgent activities. It might be appropriate somewhere else in the article, but I think this section needs to focus simply on criminal behavior. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 15:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow you rely on Axis Globe, run by some ex russian and turkish agents as reliable. One source is not enough. I am sure of that. Give us some more reliable sources to back up your Axis Globe source or remove that one as unreliable. Jawohl (talk) 09:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

whatever, rather than sniping about one source, for corroboration why not go to the new york times archive, type in "thaci hashim KLA criminal." or just follow the links in the criminal activities section. it's not that hard.Ossicle (talk) 23:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

cool. it's often really difficult to distinguish between insurgent activity and criminal activity in balkan conflicts - there's a long historical tradition of funding insurgent activities by crime, and the government under insurgent attack is often essentially a criminal enterprise itself. add in the fact that all sides regularly engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide (and have during times of war for centuries) and the distinctions between legitimate authority, criminal and insurgent become pretty useless. I think the article would benefit from some of this as context - e.g. the "Trial" section looks pretty silly in the context of the conflict in Kosovo: essentially one criminal warlord trying another for terrorism - but it would certainly just get stripped out as POV.Ossicle (talk) 23:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

hey - i'm relatively new around here. is there anything other than constantly reverting that can be done about vandalism? the article's just going to keep getting vandalized until after the whole Serbia-Kosovo thing cools down. Ossicle (talk) 20:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to semi-protect it for a week, due to anon edits like [1], [2], [3], etc. Superm401 - Talk 12:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] birthplace

Factually speaking, at the time when Thaçi was born, was Kosovo an autonomous province of the republic of Serbia within (the federation of) Yugoslavia or just an autonomous province within Yugoslavia? Ossicle (talk) 02:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Good question. Nominally, Kosovo was within Serbia's socialist republic for the duration of the Yugoslav republic. The year that Hashim was born (1969) was midway between a time when local Kosovans were granted increased power within, and 1974 when they (and Vojvodina) were granted a status giving them the same powers over their respective regions as the other Yugoslav republics. They remained within Serbia but it was symbolic, rather like the post-1999 period. Looking at your area of interest, birthplace, you are absolutely fine to leave it as it is; the Kosovo with which you link the section matches that of his birth. If you'd wanted to add Serbia, so as to say - Kosovo, Serbia, Yugoslavia; that too is fine, but maybe a little cumbersome. Too much information, since a simple click on Kosovo would fully explain how it existed at the time. For the same reasons, I'd prefer to list just "Kosovo", with its automous republic linking through a pipe, just for simplicity, not being painful for the eyes. Evlekis (talk) 15:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] “Category:Criminals”?

It’s strange to put premier Thaci in this category, since he was never been convicted and, outside Serbia, nobody serioulsy accused him or condemned him for nothing. If Srebrenica Massacre masters Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic are not in the Category:Criminals, so Thaci should not belong to it, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.162.55 (talk) 02:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I tagged two items for further references - his religion and his birthplace. Those two seem to get reverted a lot, and i haven't seen sources for either. I also removed him from the categories for Criminal, Kosovo Criminal, and Arms Smuggler. I'm not denying that he is those things, but he is primarily a prime minister and rebel leader. If we were to add criminal categories to everyone who deserves it, half of the US Congress would be tagged (I'm American, so I can say that :) ). Please discuss here before readding to avoid a revert war. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 15:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism, again

um, seriously, so the game here is just to revert vandalism as it occurs? like whack-a-mole only not any fun at all? Ossicle (talk) 23:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I've requested page protection. We'll see what the admins do, because this is ridiculous. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 00:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criminal activities???

The above mentioned paragraph is totally based on articles written by a biased journalists. Until the errors are fixed this article should be marked with NPOV-tag since it is against the WP rules on how o write bio's on living persons. I hope you understand and rewrite the section otherwise this article will continue to be biased. --Noah30 (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Almost everything in that paragraph is sourced the BBC, the CS monitor and other reliable sources. It accurately reflects what has been reported in those reliable sources. I know because I wrote most of it. And if you want other credible sources of similar stature, I'd be happy to provide them: it's easy to do because that paragraph reflects the consensus position of most reliable journalists at that time and since. If that paragraph contradicts what you think you know, go to the Times archive or the BBC archive and spend a little while reading up. And if you do find credible contradictory sources, please do add them without removing well sourced assertions (e.g. the ones in that paragraph). Or isn't that the way it's supposed to work? Ossicle (talk) 03:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The sources are being used wrongly and to paint a bad picture of Thaci. Some of the sources mention Thaci but most of them doesn’t and those who mention refer to rumors. In order to include anything Thaci must have been convicted by an independent court. So far he is not convicted he remains innocent and calling him criminal is just propaganda, nothing else. What is being written about Thaci would have caused scandals if it was written in the bio of e.g. Kostunica. I believe WP should be unbiased and not become a channel where you can "brainwash" with one-sided propaganda as we see in this case. I will very soon come back and present facts that say the opposite. In the end I must mention that I am NOT a supporter of Thaci or his party.--Noah30 (talk) 08:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you seem to misunderstand Wikipedia's policies on reliable sources. The article goes no further than any of the sources - it does not say that he was convicted of crimes, only that he has been associated with criminal activities. Nowhere do we require that a person be convicted of a crime to have such information reported in their article. If you have other sources, feel free to add them; if we disagree, we can discuss it here. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 12:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

so how long does that NPOV tag stay up? Noah30 pretty obviously misunderstands WP:RS and also seems to be a bit slow in coming up with anything to add. There's nothing wrong with what's there: multiple articles are sourced and accurately represented, and I did check for disconfirmation - there isn't anything credible out there to contradict what's sourced here.Ossicle (talk) 22:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

How about now? Can that NPOV tag come down yet? There's no dispute on-going here, so...Ossicle (talk) 21:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

heh. I like the idea that they'll file a law "suite" unless the criminal activities section is erased in its entirety.Ossicle (talk) 03:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo/Kosova

The constant nomenclature edits are tiresome already. Can we just pick one and stick with it? Please? "Kosovo" seems standard in English-language journalism so I'm going to start editing anything else, unless someone has a good reason not to. For that matter, how about standard English-language media rendering all around? (Should this article really be another place for people to demonstrate their nationalist bona fides?)Ossicle (talk) 21:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV wording

To head off an edit war between user:Ossicle and user:Evlekis, I've made a compromise version incorporating some elements of both your edits. The biggest changes are that I removed references to Thaci as a warlord - it's a controversial designation, and I didn't see any of the listed sources referring to him as that. The other words I removed were unsupported by their sources. As for the independence/separation dispute, Kosovo did not declare separation from Serbia but independence. Yes, most of the world has not recognized this independence as of now, but that doesn't change their intent. I also don't see why the last sentence was removed. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 20:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with those revisions. (Also, I wasn't edit warring: user:Evlekis reverted everything on the strength of his objection to removing the mention of Serbo-Croat from the first line, which seems, um...unfortunate.) Restored "Kosovo" to the "declaration of independence" section heading because otherwise the heading's not accurate. I'm unsure what possible justification there can be in the context of WP for going through and systematically deleting mentions of "Kosovo" and "independence," but for obvious reasons it's kinda' important they be mentioned in the same sentence in this article... Ossicle (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's really necessary to mention "Kosovar" in the header, simply because it's so obvious. But no objections here. Again, with independence rather than separation, I see them as synonymous, but I won't revert. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 03:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

re: "Kosovar" in header: there's a couple reasons I think it's important. first, the above mentioned systematic attempt by some editors to disassociate the words "Kosovo" and "independence," which is completely out of place in WP for reasons discussed below; second, it's accurate: the government of a place called "Kosovo" declared itself to be something they call "independent." The same thing does with the "independent" vs. "separate" argument: when the KLA sat down with to negotiate, they weren't asking for "separation," they were asking for "full national independence" - and I know 'cause that's what it says in the sources. But there's something else important going on here: while they sound synonymous, the difference isn't at all minor. Using "separate" serves to obscure the current state of Kosovo pursuing and having basically achieved "independence:" e.g. a state of internationally recognized sovereignty. If it continues I will go back to the sources and pull quotes in order to make it harder to obscure these things short of actual vandalism.Ossicle (talk) 05:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serbo-Croat name rendering

Why are you people adding the Serb-Croatian thing --- he is an albanian and you are trying to push a pov by making his name Serb so that you can say Kosova = Serbian. This is an insult and goes against nPOV way of WP. I call for deletion. Kosova2008 (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I wanted to ask someone about that: I edited it out last week for exactly the same reason (thus I'd tend to agree with you and taking offense isn't really necessary) but I was then rather rudely informed that the name is serbo-croat and that the rendering is correct. I figured he's Albanian and it's irrelevant to the actual article what language his name is rendered in, but I don't have any references and thus have been reverting on the premise that some information is better than none. Given your objection, I'd like to delete that rendering until there's an actual informed discussion - e.g. with references. This could also be fixed easily by someone who speaks Albanian putting up an Albanian rendering.Ossicle (talk) 03:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what it hurts. He was born in Kosovo at a time when it was still part of Serbia, and I'm sure his name is spelled that way in the Serbian press. All we'd need is a Serbian source with that spelling. i would like to point out that accusing user:Ossicle and myself of pushing a Serbian POV when we've spent the majority of our time here defending the article from Serbian nationalists is uncalled for and just makes you look silly. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 03:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No it makes you silly, this is an INSULT. I'm a Kosovar and I find this highly offensive. If you wanted to push a neutral point of view make those names redirects -- his name is spelled Hashim Thaçi, those spell it that way just aren't educated enough to spell a name. His name is Albanian and I am sick of you people making it Serbian. Nonetheless, present facts --- not your opinions. I, the reader, don't care what Kosova was, this is about a man who was born in Kosova or currently Republic of Kosova. The Serbian Croatian thing is redundant and many ways POV. If you want to make this article better since you're slaving your butt off this article than take this criticism seriously and please be respectful. As long as this article isn't locked up I'm going to delete it because it is offensive. I don't mind if I get banned/blocked for my actions, they are just. Kosova2008 (talk) 21:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Everything you have said is either irrelevant or counterproductive: I don't care where you are from, I don't care whet her you're insulted, I don't care about your notions of "respect" or "justice." Those things have nothing to do with the pronunciation of the name "Hashim Thaçi." Show me a source, preferably an ENGLISH-language one, that directly documents your claim that the proper pronunciation is Albanian. Without that source, you aren't contributing anything to the discussion at all. Ossicle (talk) 14:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian is his native language as much as Albanian, and he lives in such an area. Actually, in accordance to development, I will change it to "Serbian". --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you not been paying attention? That's exactly what's in dispute. Doing that will lead directly to an edit-war. So, no, that shouldn't lead the article.Ossicle (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Give me one precise reason. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

If you don't understand the dispute, I explain it to Kosova2008 directly following and give my reasoning to Chris directly below that. If you're looking for me to give you a reason not to revert, I did: it will lead to an edit war. You ought to hold off 'til there's consensus, because that's the way WP is supposed to work. If that's insufficiently convincing to you, go right ahead. Ossicle (talk) 23:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

1. He was born in Yugoslavia, that is Serbia.

2. He lived for his entire life in it, not only for several days.

3. Official language of Serbia is Serbian.

4. His mother tongue is Serbian, which he learned in schools.

5. He regularly uses Serbian when addressing the Serb & Goran populations of Kosovo, no "insult" in there at all.

6. Kosovo is a bi-linguist country, with both Albanian and Serbian official

7. Hashim Thaci (whose name will also be spelled in official Kosovar documents in Serbian Cyrillic) is the Prime Minister of that country to the up.

What more is needed? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You haven't addressed the the entire question: just the Serbo-Croat spelling, just the Albanian, both, or neither?

I agree that Serbo-croat is appropriate, but think that Albanian should be listed first. I think this would be best for the pragmatic desire to foreclose this dispute in the future: not listing Albanian gives the impression of slighting that ethnicity, and listing Serbo-croat first gives the impression of seeking to deny or reduce Kosovar independence.

This article is subject to constant petty nomenclature edit wars - "Kosova" vs. "Kosovo;" "separation" vs. "independence" - and this discussion contains several instances of that completely unhelpful linguistic chauvinism - see e.g. Kosova2008 or Evlekis below. The solution least likely to incite further edit-wars between Kosovar and Serbian nationalists is to list both languages, with Albanian first. Ossicle (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with Albanian, then Serbo-Croat (with Cyrillic spelling). Does anyone else object? // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 21:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Ossicle, I don't have to prove to you anything. Facts and theorems aren't made through proof, they are made through disproof. You have to show me a fact that his name is Serbian. His name is Albanian because he is Albanian, duh. If you say the earth is full of air I don't ask for proof because that's common sense. Since you aren't aware of the process of evidence I will give you evidence from his webpage link is here

Notice how it says,

Biografia e kryeministrit Hashim Thaçi

Kosova2008 (talk) 20:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you seem to be having a hard time keeping track of what's under discussion, I'll restate the argument really simply: Yes, he's ethnically Albanian, but he was born in Serbia, and so has been known by a Serbo-Croat rendering of his name. English language press tends to go with an Albanian spelling but leave off all diacritical marks. So, what we're talking about is whether to include just the Serbo-Croat spelling, just the Albanian, both, or neither. What you might do, if you wanted to be helpful here, is provide a rationale (That's a reason, preferably backed up by a source) that the SOLE proper spelling is Albanian, if that's what you think ought to happen. Don't just restate that you know he's Albanian, 'cause we all know that already. Give a reason that that spelling is the only one that's appropriate. Is it clear now what would be useful here?Ossicle (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There are good reasons on both sides of this argument. Personally I feel we should include the Serbo-Croatian transliteration, but I can't find anything in the Manual of Style that addresses this issue. I started a thread here. Can we agree to hold off on reverts until we get an answer there? // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 20:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I think both should be included, Albanian first then Serbo-Croat. This argument, such as it is, is pretty silly: the fallacy of the excluded middle, anyone? He's ethnically Albanian and was born in Serbia, so of course his name is rendered either way depending on context: in Serbo-croat-language press it's going to be one way, in Albanian press the other. At home it's probably Albanian, but in school and official records it was undoubtedly Serbo-croat. The objection was on nationalist grounds to having Serbo-croat leading the article and I think that's sufficient reason to avoid having that spelling first, if only to preclude a rehash of this obnoxious nationalist masturbation in the future. I'm not going to touch it, but the article in my opinion should read: "Hashim Thaçi (Albanian: Hashim Thaçi; Serbo-Croat: Хашим Тачи / Hašim Tači; Also spelled Hashim Thaci, Thaqi; in English-language media)" Ossicle (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

No it is not true. Transliteration did not occure. Hashim and not Hasim was used in all official documents. I have been born there and know what used to read in my passport for example. It was my name and not the Serbian transliteration. Until 1990 Cyrrillic was not used almost at all but after Milosevic came to power things changed. --Noah30 (talk) 23:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

For the purposes of WP, the point of listing various renderings of the same name is to make clear that the name rendered in different languages refers to the same person, right? Ossicle (talk) 01:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Recently, I posted this message to a user, for anyone interested in the Serbo-Croat issue, please read this:

Please leave any translations given for Kosovans born at any time between 1912 and 2008. The Serbo-Croat reflects the way their name was written in the official language of their country of birth. It is on this principle that we have the following: 1, 2, 3, 4. These are ethnic Hungarians from Serbia; but this stretches to Albanians too giving you 5 and 6. You may feel that official national language is irrelevant, but you need to bare some things in mind: repressive regimes have in the past gone further, and have all together forbidden their population from declaring an opponent nationality. Greece did this with its Macedononian Slav people; Bulgaria did this to its Turks, and Yugoslavia itself passed all Germans to the Hungarian population. The fact that Albanians were allowed to identify as such was a privilige, and any autonomy - symbolic or real - was a gift. Albanian did indeed become equal to the national language inside Kosovo, but never rose above it. Albanians were not exempt from the military, and centrally produced documentation (from Belgrade) did not use the Albanian spelling in the national language. Because of the nature of the Kosovan pre-1990 administration, we decided some time ago that we would make a concession specificly for Kosovan Albanians: as Cyrillic itself was hardly seen in Kosovo between 1974 and 1990, it was decided to use the official name of Serbo-Croat which can suffice in Latinic only, that explains Pagarusha as opposed to the Hungarians and Zana Nimani. This whole feature extends outside of Serbia, check other Albanians such as Arben Xhaferi (Macedonia). The information exists for the information of outsiders, and it is misleading to give Albanian-only versions for people born somewhere which was Yugoslavia, as can be checked by their date of birth. For now, the Serbo-Croat will stay in place.

1 - It should not be rendered an offence, particularly considering the fact that these individuals' parents consciously chose to give birth to these people in a country where one language was official, and where they raised them in the same country, and where even in cases where one is a separatist, he gambled living out his entire life in a country where the status would not change.

2 - Many article's names are given in multiple languages, as each one is considered relevant for a purpose. Birthplace is as good as any. If I have to hunt for them to give examples, I will; then I will only accept the removal of his Slavic spelling once the same editor has successfully persuaded the maintainence crew of the other articles that only the ethnic name should remain and nationally recognised names should not be on display. Until then, the matter is closed. Evlekis (talk) 10:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Evlekis, we have discussed this before but it is very hard for you to understand. Albanian names until 1990 were written the way they were written in Albanian, Hashim instead of Hasim. After that Milosevic took over things changed. You have never lived in Kosovo while I have lived there and know it. I have what they called "izvod" issued before 1990 and it was both in Albanian and Serbian (Latinic alphabet) and the spelling of the name followed the Albanian alphabet. I would have scanned it and uploaded if it wasn't for my privacy. You and me knows that Cyrrilic was not used until after 1990. Why can you not leave us alone??? --Noah30 (talk) 15:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

All of you are bad liars. I deleted not just the Serbo-Croatian thing but everything related. HE WAS BORN IN KOSOVA IN DRENICE / DRENICA [4]. The current version said he was born somewhere in Serbia. Those who are contributing to these lies and propaganda should get punished for presentation of false information. Kosova2008 (talk) 16:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

And I reverted you. I would suggest you take a look at some of our core policies before editing further. There is a current discussion, and your edits are not helping to seek a consensus. In addition, you removed his birth date - is that propaganda as well? // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 16:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you speak English well? I think you might have problems. Here is what propaganda is, a quote from the article, "Thaçi was born in Buroja in the municipality of Srbica[citation needed], in the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo ( an autonomous province within the Serbian Republic of Yugoslavia)." FACT: Hashim Thaçi was born in Drenica, Kosova. I even provided you a source which this fact in the article says it needs citation. You see this article and every Kosova or Kosovar article is 100% Serbian propaganda. You are using Serbian names, history, and beliefs to claim things for Kosova. Just because "kosovo" is widely used it does not mean that "kosovo" is its' name...I know because I was born and lived there. Now have fun making all these articles pro-Serb. Kosova is ours!!! PS: I'm never going to contribute squat in here, now I understand why people don't trust Wikipedia. Kosova2008 (talk) 02:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Kosova2008, I responded on your talk page. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 03:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"Kosova" isn't standard in ANY English language publication, thus we don't use it here. In 1968, when Thaçi was born, "Kosovo" was a province of the Socialist Republic of Serbia, which was contained governmentally within the "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." Ossicle (talk) 03:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Evlekis - Please don't revert until the dispute has been resolved here. Believe it or not, your considered opinion on its own really isn't sufficient to "close the matter." Further, sentiments like these are precisely why we're having this discussion: "The fact that Albanians were allowed to identify as such was a privilige, and any autonomy - symbolic or real - was a gift." That's what's called "chauvinism:" and given WP works on consensus, it's really not a great way to bring others around to your view. In any case, for the purposes of WP - e.g. as an English-language encyclopedia, and not, say, a history of the Balkan peninsula written from an exclusive national perspective - the point of listing various renderings of the same name is to make clear that the various names refer to the same person, right? I'm unsure what the objection to just listing Albanian, then Serbo-croat: it's a compromise that accurately reflects the current and historical situation. (and, BTW, Evlekis, how about we call it "Croato-Serb" just this once?)Ossicle (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Well if you honestly believe that Croato-Serb will resolve the issue, I don't object. Quite how long it will sit as Croato-Serb before someone attempts to change it is something I cannot predict. Personally, I'm not a chauvinist and in no way do I care about the Croat/Serb naming order for the language, my only concern is that the name spelling should exist in some form on the page. I don't even say it has to come first if there are other variations, I mean if there are multiple Albanian forms, then by all means display each and every one of them first; even if the Slavic spelling it comes last it won't hurt. I'll explain to you a little story Ossicle, I mean I don't know personally whether you are associated with the Balkans or just interested (so you may already know what I am about to write), the only reason that this matter arises is because of the presence of the Cyrillic alphabet in Serbia, and consequently Yugoslavia for its duartion. Take Croatian, primarily a Latinic alphabet script: there, it is standard to publish names of people in the local language spelling form, or its Romanised counterpart; with Serbian being a Cyrillic-based language, all Romanised writing is based on the transliteration; so although code-switching takes place in Serbian as often as it does in Croatian, newspapers such as Blic and wesbites like B92 will use forms such as Džorž Buš for George Bush (Cyrillic: Џорџ Буш). Now any other Roman alphabet tongue (eg. Swedish, English, Italian, Hungarian) will import foreign names as they are in their own language, but because Serbo-Croat, Croato-Serb or plain Serbian doesn't do this in standard text, we need to show that however much one fought for his nation's identity, he was born in a land where his territory was an integral part of the rest of the region. The other remark which I made about "identity being a privilege" was not as act of chauvinism, neither opinion for that matter - it is empirical irrevocable fact. I challenge anybody to find one ethnic Turk born on Greek territory without a Greek spelling; and I will send out a bottle of champagne to anyone who can find an ethnic Slavic person from Greece whose name is given only in the Slavic with no reference to the Greek, as it is deemed offensive. The point is, my own relatives who stayed in Lerin/Florina after World War II do not have any Slavic name at all, not those born since atleast. My point is that no wordly action can prevent an authority from taking such measures against its population, suffice it to say that if one's authority has not done it, one needs to be grateful and not demanding. I wasn't for one minute suggesting that Belgrade should have done to the Albanians what it did with its German (forced dissimilation to Hungarians) population. If you wish to put Croato-Serb, I'll support it. Evlekis (talk) 07:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

dude, that croato-serb comment was a joke. So you're with the Albanian then Serbo-croat listing too. Cool. Ossicle (talk) 08:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm waiting for another 5 days, then I'm going to put up "Hashim Thaçi (Albanian: Hashim Thaçi; Serbo-Croat: Хашим Тачи / Hašim Tači; Also spelled Hashim Thaci, Thaqi; in English-language media)" with the link to the recording in there. Objections? Ossicle (talk) 18:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy with that. No objections here. Evlekis (talk) 06:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Changed listing on 4/19. Do not change the listing of Hashim Thaçi without again discussing here. Ossicle (talk) 02:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Validity, Standardization, Reliability

Now Hashim Thaçi is all from places but not from Republic of Kosova? How do you people get away with such actions. Is there no authority? I can prove to you with a viable source that the man is from Drenica, Kosova. If we read about Bill Clinton does it say that he is from America? Or --- British Colony, 13 colonies, New world? The man is from Kosova, he is an Albanian, and he is the current Prime Minister, how hard is it to present these facts? The content on this article comes into question very quickly, just whose invisible hand is guiding these edits? Kosova2008 (talk) 06:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC) PS: they're PRO-Serb.

How about this then? ...born 24 April 1968 in Srbica, Kosovo (formerly an autonomous province of Yugoslavia). "Kosovo" redirects to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and the reference to Yugoslavia avoids bringing up the dispute over Kosovo's independence. I don't think anyone will argue that Yugoslavia is no linger in existence. Would that be acceptable to all?

As for the Drenica v. Srbica birthplace, I have yet to see an English-language source stating he was born in Drenica. Most of us on this board do not read Albanian. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 06:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

NO. This is ridiculous: he was born in Srbica, Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, Socialist Republic of Serbia, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. That's simply the historical truth: that's what those places were called during that period of time. There just wasn't any governmental unit called "Kosova" or "The Republic of Kosova" then (NOR, in English language media, IS THERE NOW: it's "KOSOVO"); and calling the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija "Kosovo" is just ahistorical and inaccurate. It's pandering to a ridiculous nationalist request that the territory of a newly independent nation be retroactively considered to have belonged to that nation: NO, "Kosovo" hasn't always existed as a country and thus Thaçi was born in the same place when it was called by an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT NAME. There isn't any pro-Serb bias here and you, Chris, know it. Further, ANY neutral party looking at the talk page and the edit history can see that there isn't any bias here. I've worked a lot on this article and have gone far, far out of my way to strip out bias and I'm sick of the completely unfounded accusations of bias and immature, abusive commentary from Kosova2008. He should either learn to take part in these discussions in an adult, respectful manner - in compliance with WP:CORE policies - or he should be blocked from this article. Ossicle (talk) 18:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

All users please DNFT (ossicle). 'Proof:[5] "Thaçi was born in Kosovo's central region of Drenica, the heartland of the ethnic Albanian armed resistance against Serb authorities. The area was a scene of a botched Serb police operation against an ethnic Albanian family accused of attacks against authorities in March 1997.

Proof: (Rep of Kosova PM website):[6] "He was born on 24 April 1968 in Burojë village of Skënderaj." Anyone who knows anything about Kosova knows where Skenderaj is and Drenica. The glove FITS!!! Kosova2008 (talk) 19:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you're just confused: the point is that the area informally called "Kosovo" in your examples, though now contained in a country called "Kosovo," was at the time of Thaçi's birth contained in a different governmental unit properly called the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, Socialist Republic of Serbia, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." To take your Bill Clinton example: Yes, Bill Clinton was born in Arkansas, USA, but George Washington was born in the Colony of Virginia (not in the USA, even though the place where he was born is now in the USA). Identifying birthplace by the names contemporary with the event allows readers to place the person in the appropriate historical context: it's important that Thaçi was born in the eastern block and now is the prime minister of a brand new country made of a part of the country of his birth. Does that clear things up for you?

I'll just remark in passing that "All users please DNFT (ossicle)" is precisely why I think you should go contribute somewhere else. But in terms of Troll-assessment: it's not like other users can't just read the talk page for themselves...Ossicle (talk) 21:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Both of you need to calm down. One at a time now: user:Kosova2008, I'm not very good on Kosovo's geography. You're trying to say he was born in Drenica, right? I thought Srbica was a town in Drenica? From the second source you mentioned, aren't Skendraj and Srbica the same place?

user:Ossicle, I'm trying to find a compromise position here. If you asked the average American what the difference was between Kosovo and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, they would say it's the same thing. This is not the difference between Macedonia and Macedonia - we're talking about different names for the same place. Piping Kosovo back to the Autonomous Province makes the intro more readable and keeps people happy, without sacrificing historical accuracy. I'm basing this on the Mother Teresa article, which also deals with a famous person who was born in one empire that is now known by a different name. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 22:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

User:dchall1 - I understand the urge toward compromise here, really, and I'm not just being obstinate. There are a few reasons I think piping "Kosovo" to "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" is inappropriate. Most importantly: "Kosovo" and the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" aren't the same place at all. Those names refer to GOVERNMENTAL UNITS, not to geography. Calling his birthplace "Kosovo" allows people to confuse his birthplace with the country now called "Kosovo" and gives the impression that a governmental unit called "Kosovo" has been around for longer than a few months. (The two places are the same only in the sense that they happened to be in the same physical space, but if you wanted to use geographical place names, he would have been born in someplace like "Town of Srbica in the Drenica Valley in Kosovo on the Pannonian Plain on the Balkan Peninsula." There's a really good reason we don't identify birthplace with geographical place names: giving governmental place names places the event within the context of human - not geographical - events.)

Further, I see little reason to compromise with such an utterly silly request: if I wanted to declare all people born in the physical place now called "California" to have been born in the USA would that make any sense at all? Would it make substantially more sense if we redirected "California" to "Alta California" or "Mexico" for people born between 1821-1850 and then to "New Spain" or "Spain" for people born between 1520-1821? Would that be a viable "compromise?" Or would it only serve to make the article totally inaccurate and misleading in order to please some fringe opinion? I've done a lot of editing to make this article neutral and accurate and that "compromise" would only serve to make the article inaccurate and subtly biased. Ossicle (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Ossicle is being like this. It is a fact that Hashim Thaçi is a Kosovar, and is the PM. He was born in Drenica, I even provided you with proof --- are you resistant to facts? You seem to be going back to the old government, that is NOT for you to decide, this article is about the PRIME MINISTER not about the CURRENT status of (Rep. of) Kosova. Also I noticed you wrote like 4 messages, I did not read them all, I can tell you're getting upset. I'll reply another day when you cool down, no insult. Kosova2008 (talk) 00:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm completely calm. I had to wait in front of the computer all day for work today, so, yeah, I wrote a lot: almost all of my editing on WP is just killing time waiting around for work stuff. I've also given several reasoned accounts of my position on this - e.g. why i'm "being like this." There's one directly above your comment. Maybe you should read it.Ossicle (talk) 01:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo2008 is suggesting that we use "born in Drenica, Republic of Kosova", though somehow I don't feel that this has anything to do with Kosovo's status in all English speaking countries, it is more a symbol of nationalism. Now it is one thing to argue the age old status of today vs historical accuracy, but other editors of her kind often used to make edits to state that one was born in Kosovo or Kosova, even whilst Kosovo was nominally within Serbia. See this edit: [7]. Get my point? It was dated four weeks before the federation ended, a time when Kosovo was in any case still recognised as a province occupied by the UN within that country, and with the singer born in 1933, at a time when no entity existed by the name of Kosovo (the former Ottoman province was split between Montenegro, Serbia, subsequently the Kingdom of Yugoslavia; and the Kingdom of Albania), somehow this user still managed to present the region as "Kosova" (although I admit, the unusual presentation there does say that this person is from rather than was born in) but you can see my point. Most believe that countries are relevant, and there is no point giving dates and years unless we complete the information according to that date. But where there has been change, it is also advisable to explain where and how the same region exists at present. So there are a number of ways in which all information can be displayed, an example: born January 1, 1970 in Bratislava, Slovakia, (then Czechoslovakia). If one were to click on Kosovo, he is mainly looking at the entity created since February 18th, 2008, although its history will start from the earliest recordings. When a named entity enters a new phase, or is even non-existent for certain periods (as was the case with Bosnia, Slavic Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro during Yugoslavia's kingdom), it is desirable to create an article to concentrate on the region during that period. This is how we have Georgian SSR, SR Slovenia and Slovak Socialist Republic. Of course, I agree that it is cumbersome to provide every detail and so the presentations should be scaled down by piping each entity through its simple form, all be it Ukraine, Vojvodina or Montenegro. As most English speaking countries seem to recognise Kosovo (not South Africa and New Zealand as on 17th April, 2008), I suppose there is no problem in giving the additional "now Republic of Kosovo", but I am quite sure that for the time being, Kosova is not widely used, the same for the town names. Evlekis (talk) 12:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So how exactly should we change "born 24 April 1968 in Srbica, Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, Socialist Republic of Serbia, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" to both reflect the current situation of Kosovo and remain accurate? Is it acceptable to say "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (since February 2008, the area occupied by the Republic of Kosovo)" ?

I checked the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija article and as far as I can tell they occupy the same space, so at least it's not totally inaccurate. I do maintain that it's both inaccurate and misleading to simply pipe a mention of "Kosovo" though to the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija article - they aren't remotely the same thing.

I'm all for compromise, but I'm mostly interested in accuracy, so that seems marginally acceptable - e.g. it's a compromise position. I will say that I still believe that that change alters the neutrality of the article in a way I am not happy with and I predict - because it subtly represents a Kosovar position - it will lead to exactly this kind of petty nomenclature editing in the future. But consensus is always the consensus of those who show up, right? Ossicle (talk) 08:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Then why not do it like Mother Teresa? State in the intro that he was born in Srbica, Kosovo, and put the full details in the infobox. That keeps the intro readable, while historically accurate details are closeby. Also, I'm still unclear on the Drenica v. Srbica argument. Did either of you want to weigh in on that? // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 13:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Chris,if you look again, the Mother Teresa article doesn't say where she was born in the first line of the article. It only says that in the info box. Which I would be perfectly happy with. I would be fine with any solution that made it immediately clear on a first read for the laziest reader (e.g. not through a redirect, not by saying one thing in the first line and clarifying in the info box) that Thaçi was born in the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, in the country of Yugoslavia, not in the country of "Kosovo." Listing "Kosovo" as his birthplace serves only to confuse people, since "Kosovo" now refers to a country that's only a few months old. Clarifying that the place where the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" was is now called to "Republic of Kosovo" adds information and context, which is good. Ossicle (talk) 18:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me make this clear ONCE and for all. Evlekis did a good job trying to understand my perspective. It's VERY simple. This is the page of Hashim Thaçi, he was born in Kosova --- just say, "was born in Kosovo". It is NOT our responsibility to politicallize Kosova and tell history --- clicking kosova will do that for you. It should say, "was born in Drenica, Kosova (and year)." Kosova2008 68.114.197.88 (talk) 16:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Um. He wasn't born in Kosovo. Look it up: "Kosovo" didn't exist when he was born. It's inaccurate not to say he was born in a province of Yugoslavia. Further, it's not like I don't understand your "perspective," I just don't think it's a particularly useful one: you freely admit that you are editing from the point of view of a hypernationalist. In English language media that isn't any place called "Kosova;" and the use of the name "Kosovo" is politicized right now whether we would like it to be or not (as you well know, otherwise you wouldn't constantly use the term "Kosova," and you wouldn't insist on Albanian naming conventions instead of the currently more standard Serbian ones.) It is precisely the point of a BIOGRAPHY to tell history, and WP strives to do that in a politically neutral way, thus I'm not sure whether or to what extent your hypernationalism can be accommodated here. It's not even that I disagree with your "perspective" - I actually don't care either way - but I do know that canting this article in favor of Kosovo isn't what WP should be about.Ossicle (talk) 18:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh Kosovo did actually exist when Hashim was born, in the name of "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija." It was from the time that most of the former Ottoman province went to Serbia in 1912 until 1946 when it didn't function as an entity. Serb royalists obviously felt that controlling the territory was necessary and not carving out its borders to create an internal region, so the whole region was split among the banovinas. It's all right to state that Hashim was born in Kosovo, but piping it to the 1946-74 period is more accurate. The land does need to stay though, it helps people realise quicker how Kosovo was at the time; something they wouldn't realise if they don't click on the link. Evlekis (talk) 07:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Evlekis: accurate nomenclature is the entire point here. E.g. if it was a functional part of Serbia and then Yugoslavia, it's better not to obscure that by calling everything that happened to take place in that one geographical space "Kosovo." Especially given that there is now a functional entity informally called "Kosovo" which is brand new, and we don't want to give the impression that that has longer historical continuity than it actually does.

How about: "Srbica, Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (now known as the Republic of Kosovo), Yugoslavia." and move the full "Srbica, Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, Socialist Republic of Serbia, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" over into the info box? This accurately clarifies that Thaçi was born in the place now called "Kosovo" when it was called something else and contained in a different country. It also avoids giving the impression that "Kosovo" existed in the same form (e.g. as an independant country) when Thaçi was born, and doesn't rely on people clicking on a noun they think they already know the meaning of. And it's less visually cluttered than what's there now.Ossicle (talk) 22:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey - I'm implementing the changes I've proposed because of a number of edits that have cropped up in the last few hours - e.g. [8]. I apologize if there's still significant disagreement - among those willing to compromise I haven't heard any major objections - and please, if there's a problem, revert and talk about it here. Ossicle (talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I am happy with your last edit, and shall not make alterations to it. Evlekis (talk) 06:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] accusations of organ trafficking

Ok, this has come up over at the KLA article too: the organ trafficking allegations all come from a single source promoting a forthcoming book. They are second-hand or third-hand allegations - e.g. Le Monde reporting (in French) that del Ponte's book contains allegations substantiated by "reliable sources." There are several sources (one or two Serbian language reports, one French, an English one from Fox News) but each one contains EXACTLY THE SAME INFORMATION: they can't corroborate one another or substantiate the allegations further.

In my opinion, because the allegations are about trafficking in HUMAN ORGANS - e.g. are incredibly inflammatory, on par with calling them cannibals or vampires - reports of this kind aren't sufficient proof for WP: exceptional claims require exceptional sources WP:RS. Someone should actually read del Ponte's book, pull quotes from the original and place them in context - e.g. saying "she says they sold organs" isn't as useful as saying "As part of her work as prosecutor, X source made Y allegation to del Ponte. These allegations are substantiated by Z, A, B..." - and then they could be included. I feel very strongly about this, and will revert until someone gives me a really, really good reason not to.

Also, people seem to be under the impression that anything is appropriate so long as it's clearly labeled an "allegation." This is not the case: Wikipedia:Fringe theories: "Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist should be used only as sources about themselves in articles about themselves or their activities, and any information used must be directly relevant to the subject and their cause of notability. Articles using such sources should not repeat any contentious claims, or any claims made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources." Ossicle (talk) 22:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thaci has never been head of KLA

Where do you have the informantion from about Thaci being head of KLA during 90's? He was only a spokesperson as far as I know. --Noah30 (talk) 18:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, don't know where that "political director" bit came from, but it wasn't from the source referenced. I took it out. In some form or another, it probably originates here [9] - a source I'm not particularly happy with because it's already been the basis of a number of edit-wars. It's obviously biased (anti-Thaci), is very, very sensationalistic, is from an obscure (to me) organization, and contains way too many specific, petty accusations found in no other credible source. (Not to say that Thaçi isn't any, or indeed all, of the things the article say he is, just that that article isn't a useful source for the purposes of WP.) I've tried to trim it out as much as possible and rely on sources like the New York Times and the BBC, both of which has extensive online archives searchable by keyword. Ossicle (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Armed attack

Attack on his family, attack on the nation. Mr. Thaci was not at Pristina home in the Arberia district, on June 6, 2008, but his wife and son were present but unhurt, in the armed 2nd floor balcony attack, when security guards exchanged fire with intruders who fled, and at least one was wounded.news.bbc.co.uk, Armed attack at Kosovo PM's home President Fatmir Sejdiu condemned the attack: "This is an attack not only against Thaci and his family but against the institutions of the Republic of Kosovo." Sejdiu's predecessor, the late Ibrahim Rugova, escaped 2 attacks on him after the war, including a bomb attack on his convoy in 2005.swissinfo.ch,Guards prevent "attack" on house of Kosovo PM afp.google.com/article, Firefight as intruders target Kosovo PM's home--Florentino floro (talk) 12:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

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