Talk:Harvard Extension School

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I question this article's statement about HES having a "rigorous" admissions policy. As a graduate of Harvard College, I know that the bar is set much lower for HES ALB students than those who are accepted into the actual college. While I do not deny that HES offers a great education at an amazing value, it is hard to equate that an HES degree from any degree offered by other colleges at Harvard University.

In response, I agree that the College is the heart of Harvard University--and it deserves the credit as such. HES is far from rigorous admissions. The course work is almost identical overall to the College, however. I've been a student in both the College and Extension.


--- How does the ALB and ALM degrees offered by the Harvard Extension School compare to the more traditional AB and AM degrees?

Answer: In the ALM Liberal Arts program, the thesis requirement is a big differentiator. This was told to me by my thesis director, a professor in the Government department (FAS), who also teaches and advises GSAS students. At the Ed School, some EdM programs only have to take classes to receive their degree -- there is no thesis or final research project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.190.75 (talk) 20:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)



Contents

[edit] Diplomas

The language on the diplomas for all extension school degrees are as follows: ALB in Extension Studies; AA in Extension Studies; ALM in Extension Studies. The diplomas don't actually have a field of study on them or one of the three broader categories such as natural sciences, humanities, or social sciences. I'm typing this because under the Undergraduate Degrees section there's ambiguity. Look at the extension school website and one will see that the requirements must be completed in the three fields for the ALB. None of those three areas are listed on the diploma; therefore, all degrees from the extension school are in Extension Studies. Let's make these sentences more clear for true representation of the extension school degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs) 05:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Open Enrollement

The part that mentions the Extension School as being open enrollement is a bit off the mark. Yes, when simply taking classes there is open enrollement, but in order to become a degree canidate, you have to formally apply and meet admissions standards. Could we somehow emphasis that while HES is an open enrollment school, it's degree programs require a formal admission policy?

Yes, but I'm not sure becoming a degree candidate is very hard. The requirements are four classes, one of which is the equivalent of freshman composition, with a B average or better, and an essay. In theory, that is pretty open. JRP 16:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You are slightly off base, JRP. As an Extension Student, I am not here to pick on what you've written, but to say that just because "in theory" it sounds like open enrollment doesn’t make it so. The expository writing class is the real indicator if you will make it at HES and it is not the easiest thing to pass. The Extension School makes it to where that class weeds people out. The other requirement is to maintain a minimum of a 2.5 GPA in your coursework. Now getting a 2.5 does not always indicate that you are a shoe in. Maybe on a slow academic year and a good written essay will they let you in with a 2.5-2.8, but they're really looking for a 3.0. I know that there is a stigma against the extension school for granting people access to Harvard resources if they pass a couple classes and pay for tuition. But the only real benefiting factor about the extension school comes when you maintain a 3.5 GPA after three semesters. From there you get special student status into the College, ample aid and scholarships, access to Harvard College's Career services, research assistant positions, and a host of other things. Its really a work your way up program. Work hard and you get rewarded. There are some that use the Extension School as a community college; they work hard to get admitted and then just lax themselves into getting their degree with a 2.0/2.5 GPA. Others take advantage of everything it has to offer. So it's really what you make of it. Sorry to be longwinded about this. And I hope that people won’t mistake my apologizing for the Extension School as trying to compare it to the College. It is in no way comparable to the College in prestige or admission standards. But while saying that, it is also in no way shape of form, a diploma mill similar to Devry or the University of Phoenix. I would compare its standards to a bottom top tier state school/private school, where the transfer GPA is a 2.5 minimum. Simple as that.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't disparaging the extension school. I am a student there, after all. But I also want to make sure we keep the article balanced. JRP 05:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have attended a couple of state school's: UVA; UNC; NCSU; and U of Florida - all of which proved to be much less challenging to Harvard Extension School.

(I went to UNC and NCSU too, and they were much easier than HES).

Well yeah I mean they are still Harvard caliber classes. The point is that if you can handle the work you can be admitted. The process of elimination is stunning. There will be like 20 students going for the ALB and only like half make it. Notable Alumni from the program are President of Colombia, Alvaro Uribe, and his VP Francisco Santos Calderon.

I actually think the graduation rate is far less than 50%, from a conversation I had with one of the faculty last week. JRP 16:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right considering that only 12,000 people have gotten either an ALB, ALM or Certificate in the whole 100 years of HES's existence. That's only about 120 a year considering the college graduates four times that much each year.

[edit] Recent edits

The admissions process is quite demanding, and the facts stated in recent edits are true, as supported by links in the "external links" section. --71.233.150.26 (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't make any sense. If someone adds examples of Extension Students performing at the level (and sometimes surpassing) their College peers, it's POV. If someone wants to add citations of the Extension School having a low matriculation rate of people going into a degree program and an even lower graduation rate, it's POV. But if anyone adds anything that demeans the school, then somehow it's cited material and cannot be edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstinline2009 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy links

I have removed two of the citation links in the "Controversy" section that were in relation to Extension School students posing as Harvard College students. These two links misrepresent the issue. The first was a man that claimed to be a Harvard Law School graduate, and the correction in the article says that he was not even an Extension School student. That's not applicable. The second is a case when a Harvard Extension school student pilfered a Harvard College student's identity to enroll in a Harvard College club. That's not applicable. These are not innocent claims, but rather deliberate acts of fraud, and so don't match up with what this paragraph is saying. I have left the third article and the line intact since there may be some truth to it, though there is inadequate information to know how he was misrepresented. In summary: An Extension School Student can represent himself as a Harvard University student. (Though, I suspect that he needs to be a degree candidate. I'm not sure if an open enrollment student can make that claim, we'd have to find a policy.) However, an Extension School student (or a Medical School student or a Law School student) cannot represent himself as a Harvard College student. But that should be common sense, I suspect. I'm not sure this section makes that clear. JRP (talk) 00:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation and removal of those sources. I moved the info another user added into a "controversy" section because it didn't seem to fit in the section it had been placed yet was sourced. I also agree that the section needs to make certain issues clearer. --Ave Caesar (talk) 00:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I just cannot see how the current sections on the Extension page are legitimate considering the citations used. The controversy section is full of misconceptions. The three articles cited are about rare cases of students taking a class or two at the Extension School in order to use their affiliation to pose as College Students. These people already had extensive criminal records and were taking advantage of the open enrollment courses. They do not reflect on the Degree Candidates, who are FULL members of the Harvard Community. It is a lie to state that Harvard degree candidates at the Extension School are not real Harvard Students. Secondly, the person who posted those examples of "posers" did not do their research because most of the activities those posers have been caught infiltrating are OPEN to degree candidates. There are several Extension Students who have matriculated into the degree programs involved in student organizations, including political campus groups. The Graduate Council of the University has TWO Extension School students representing the school. Why would they be allowed to do so if Extension School students were "not real Harvard Students". I could understand if the user was trying to distinguish between Harvard College/GSAS students and non-degree Extension Students, but this was apparently not his intention. The sections seem like examples of malicious trolling and hiding behind the citations is no excuse to keep them on the page.

Also, why is it a controversy if Hillary Duff decided to fudge up her affiliation with Harvard even though she was never formally admitted into a degree program? She is in the same boat as the other posers who have nothing to do with the overall degree seeking student body (or non-degree seeking for that matter). Firstinline2009

The controversy section should be moved to Hillary Duff's page. It is her controversy, not the school's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anytime5 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Other points; the Student Life section seems like it is filled with sarcasm. The use of quotations around the words "degree candidates", "trial" seem to imply that one shouldn't take HES students seriously. Also, the description of the library seems to suggest that it's not much of a library and it doesn't even need to be invoked as one, etc. The whole section just seems fixed on implying that HES is not a legitimate school at Harvard, which is far from the truth. I just cannot see how these new additions are helping the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstinline2009 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)