Talk:Harry Harlow

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, which collaborates on Psychology and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details on the project. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it needs.

	Harry Harlow is part of WikiProject Animal rights, a project to create and improve articles related to animal rights. If you would like to help, please consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome.
B	rated as B-Class on the assessment scale
Mid	rated as Mid-importance on the assessment scale

Contents 1 Pit of despair 2 Article lacks information on controversy 3 single housing of monkeys 4 Notations 5 Discrepancies 6 Harlow's contributions to science 6.1 Query

[edit] Pit of despair

The "pit of despair" was actually used to imprison baby monkeys for up to a year, not just six weeks, as is documented in the Wikipedia article on the device. This should be made consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.139.226.50 (talk • contribs)

The isolation chambers were used to completely isolate monkeys for up to 12 months, but monkeys were kept in the "vertical chamber apparatus" (re: Suomi) for much shorter periods. If you are aware of a source demonstrating something else, please post it here. Rbogle 21:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I could only find that the monkeys were kept in the verticle chamber apparatus for up to six weeks, although in the other isolation chambers for up to one year, which I think is what Pit of despair says. The source I used for that was one of Deborah Blum's books, but she wasn't very precise as I recall. I'll take another look. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

In The Monkey Wars (1994), Blum doesn't say anything about the length of time monkeys were in the Pit, but she says they were in the other isolation chambers for up to two years. She writes: "The laboratory built 'isolation chambers,' cages that screened monkeys from seeing others, faced them against walls. They left young monkeys in them, alone, for three months, six months, a year, two years. The two-year experiment was tried only once: the monkeys, reported Harlow, were mentally destroyed. Nothing the scientists did — pairing then with friendly companions, stroking them, giving them extra treats — could make them even lift their heads." (p.92)

In Love at Goon Park (2002), Blum writes of the Pit: "Most of the chambered monkeys were at least three months old. They were kept in the vertical chamber for maybe a month, no more than six weeks." (p.219)

However, Blum also writes in Goon Park that Harlow kept the monkeys in the regular isolation chambers for up to one year, whereas she wrote in Monkey Wars that one set of monkeys was kept for two years, so I'm not sure I trust her figures, but they're all I have at the moment. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I got hung up on the Harlow et al. "Total social isolation in monkeys." paper, so went back and looked again. Stephens cites two studies in which baby monkeys were left in the chamber for two years (24 months.)

Harlow, H.F. 1962. Development of affection in primates. Pp. 157-166 in: Roots of Behavior (E.L. Bliss, ed.). New York: Harper.

The other one is Harlow, H.F. 1964. Early social deprivation and later behavior in the monkey. Pp. 154-173 in: Unfinished tasks in the behavioral sciences (A.Abrams, H.H. Gurner & J.E.P. Tomal, eds.) Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins.

These will need to be reformatted; the 24 months is well documented. If the article isn't edited tonight, I'll do it tomorrow.Rbogle 02:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article lacks information on controversy

Something should be made of the controversy surrounding his monkey trials. Doesn't anyone else thing so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by NotUntilNow (talk • contribs) 04:59, February 22, 2007

I've added a bit to the lead. It's what he became widely known for, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] single housing of monkeys

Deleted an assertion that single housing of monkeys with solid walls is still common (with a 1995 reference to a book about "what are the options." First of all, it isn't that relevant to Harlow, unless its shown there is more (or even the same amount) as before his experiments. Second, it is illegal in the UK and I have not seen it in the US for some time, although I have not been to any medical labs there. I know it has been illegal for Chimpanzees in the US even in medical facilities for at least a decade.

In the UK now, you cannot even buy monkeys alone, they must be sold in family groups so they don't undergo social trauma.--Jaibe 21:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jaibe, we have a reliable source for the edit you removed, so I restored it. It says: "Some of the monkeys remained in solitary confinement for 15 years. A variation of this housing method, using cages with solid sides as opposed to wire mesh, but retaining the one-cage, one-monkey scheme, remains a common housing practice in primate laboratories today. (Reinhardt V, Liss C, Stevens C. "Social Housing of Previously Single-Caged Macaques: What are the options and the Risks?" Universities Federation for Animal Welfare, Animal Welfare 4: 307-328. 1995.)

Much of the footage I've seen from labs shows primates in cages alone. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

If this is animal rights footage, then obviously they would be targetted by the photographers. Also, animals that have undergone surgery are usually housed alone since monkeys are quite cruel to animals that are "different". --Jaibe 08:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether they're targeted specifically because known to be poor operators or not, the fact remains that there is extensive recent footage of primates being housed alone, and to the best of my knowledge, they're housed alone in the UK after being imported to see whether they come down with disease.

Yes, in that case they probably have to be housed alone too (& certainly there are probably several monkeys recovering from surgery at any one time in the UK), but not isolated. As the article explains, the worst social isolation is when they cannot even see other primates (even seeing humans is some help.) But the law I think refers to routine housing, which I belive must now be done in groups.

Having said that, now that I read the paragraph again, it smacks of WP:SYN, so you were right to remove it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I am working on that section now. I will move what I excise here, sorry I didn't do that the first time -- I meant to but accidently cleared my paste buffer & then didn't go back...--Jaibe 14:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Excised text (by WP:SYN & for the sake of article coherence): Some of the monkeys remained in solitary confinement for 15 years^{[citation needed]}. A variation of this housing method, using cages with solid sides as opposed to wire mesh, but retaining the one-cage, one-monkey scheme, was still a common housing practice in primate laboratories as recently as 1995.^[1] -- also took out this ref ^[2] since I've added better / more complete ones, and this sentence: Harlow wrote that total social isolation for the first six months of life produced "severe deficits in virtually every aspect of social behavior." since that had been said in even stronger terms in the quote box & wasn't really relevant to the rehab topic.--Jaibe 14:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notations

The notations for sources cite MUST be consistent. It is not an acceptable format to use one format and then switch to another format. Changing it accordingly.

Thanks for pointing it out. These things tend to be evolutionary on Wikipedia. :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancies

The first paragraph in the "Surrogate Mother Experiments" says that these experiments were "conducted between 1963 and 1968," but the last paragraph says that "Harlow first reported the results of these experiments [on] . . . August 31, 1958.

Ileanadu 17:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)ileanadu

[edit] Harlow's contributions to science

Since I've last looked at this page there's been a massive excising of well-documented, well-established contributions made to science by this man with no discussion whatsoever. Of course no deletion of reference to the suffering he caused, nor should there be! But this is the kind of blatant activism & destruction of knowledge that gives animal rights activism a bad name.

I've already blown two hours on Wikipedia animal rights stuff this morning so I won't fix this now. But I will at some time in the future. Will people kindly remember that just because you don't like an outcome doesn't mean you can delete it without discussion. If you feel that the science was later proved incorrect, find good, high-quality publications documenting this & explain the controversy in the page!--Jaibe 09:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

This info must still be in the page history. I'd be interested in seeing what it is you are referring to.Rbogle 17:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I haven't read this page previously, but you have to put his work in context. I'm listening to a "This American Life" episode which starts out discussing Harlow and his experiments. According the radio show's prologue, early in the last century, psychologists and doctors advised mothers to not pick up, cuddle or kiss their children. See http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=317

Further evidence that this was the prevailing view of "experts" can be found at the Wikipedia article on Dr. Benjamin Spock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock

Previously, experts had told parents that babies needed to learn to sleep on a regular schedule, and that picking them up and holding them whenever they cried would only teach them to cry more and not to sleep through the night (a notion that borrows from behaviorism). They were told to feed their children on a regular schedule, and that they should not pick them up, kiss them, or hug them, because that would not prepare them to be strong and independent individuals in a harsh world.

Whether Harlow's work, which mistreated monkeys, was necessary can be debated, but he undisputably contributed to our current understanding about parental attachment.

Perhaps this article is so controversial that it should have limited editing. Ileanadu 16:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The article needs to be more explicit about whether any of his results are nowadays considered meaningful (i.e. whether the baby monkeys' need to cling is considered of any relevance for whether human babies need contact, and especially whether damage caused by isolation has any correlation with depression). Salopian (talk) 14:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Query

Has anyone ever investigated the outcome of this type of treatment with a different primate species? Jean Mercer 15:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

By "treatment," what precisely do you mean? If you mean the effects of environmental deprivation on psycholocical development, the answer is yes, and with many species. As far as other primates, environmental deprivation has been studied in other macaque species, squirrel monkeys, and chimpanzees. The definitive survey of these studies is probably Maternal Deprivation Experiments in Psychology (Martin L. Stevens, 1986.)Rbogle 18:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)