Talk:Harrier Jump Jet

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Contents 1 Harrier story page idea 2 Language 3 Main article name 4 Pop culture 5 Images 6 Harrier Jump Jet in popular culture 7 Structure ideas 8 Harrier London-New York point-to-point record? 9 Requested merger 9.1 Survey 9.1.1 Survey - Support votes 9.1.2 Survey - Oppose votes 9.2 Discussion 9.3 Decision 10 Concerning the "pop culture" section 11 Unqualified statement 12 Corrected Infobox inaccuracy 13 Operational History 14 Order of users in info box 15 Comparison spec table

[edit] Harrier story page idea

Peter, back in January, you noted on the Talk:Hawker-Siddeley Harrier page that we ought to have a single page covering the story of the Harrier - military role and evolution. Harrier Jump Jet is a disambiguation page. What if we expanded it to cover the overall history and evolution, of the P.1127/Kestrel/Harrier/Harrier II family, dealing with the story overall, and parts that really aren't covered by the other Harrier pages. I am considering doing this, but wanted to get your thoughts before putting anything together. Thanks. - BillCJ 23:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bill, it would be a great project. The name of the aircraft presents difficulties because it has changed so much over the last 40 years, with no definitive name. Harrier Jump Jet is descriptive but colloquial. Maybe the main article should be Harrier V/STOL fighter aircraft with a redirect from Harrier Jump Jet. The main article should be a short overview leading to longer sub articles. The sub articles should link to the main in the first paragraph. The overview would be 'military role and evolution (history)' with maybe a 'current status'. History would cover the development. The Kestrel page could be a sub-sub page (sub page of History).

I think this might be a good case for a 'Wiki Project' but I don't know much about these. It might be worth using Categories to collect the articles into a hierachy.

Your thoughts? PeterGrecian 11:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Peter. I don't know much about setting up Wiki Projects either. I hadn't considered that "Harrier Jump Jet" was colloquial; I have heard it used in both British and American sources, esp print. That page just seemed like a good place to start. "Harrier V/STOL aircraft" might be a better title, given that the Harrier really isn't considered a fighter in all of its incarnations, Sea Harrier and Harrier II Plus being the main "fighter" variants. "Story of the Harrier" might work to, though its a bit unorthodox for most Wiki aircraft titles. We might actually go through several page moves till we get one everyone is satisfied with. Harrier jet, Harrier fighter/attack aircraft, Jump Jet, and Harrier (aircraft) are all redierect pages (to HJJ) that might work also.

Your basic outline sounds good though. In putting it together, I would basically copy relevant section from the other articles, and expand them where needed in the new article. That's how I usually start new articles - I steal from the existing ones :). Once we have it completed, we can then ask for input if we want to redact any repeated material in the other articles.

I'd basically like this article to be an overview, and deal with the history as a whole, the impact the aircraft has had, etc. Some of this is mentioned in the other articles, but usually only briefly. The history definitely needs to start with the P.1127 and the Kestrel (they are both covered in one article right now because there isn't enough material to justify 2 separte ones), and probably even mention the "Flying Bedstead". It can also cover some of the parallel development of the Pegasus and its forebearers, which really made the Harrier a reality. I want to try to make sure we cover enough original material (not original research), esp history, to justfiy retaining the article.

If we can decide on title soon, I'll start on it as I can, and maybe not link to the other pages till we at least get the basic outline done. At first, it will just be a collectin of various paragraphs and pics in somewhat chronological order. We can work on formatting it as we go along, a bit at a time. We may have to fight off "Requests for Deletion", but if I start with a a lot of material from the other orticles, I think we can hold that off. I realize you won't have a lot of time to work on this for no, but feel free to contribute as you can. Make any any edits you feel are necessary, and if I disagree, we can discuss it on the article talk page. It's definitely going to be a work in progress though, going through many changes, especially as others start to contribute. - BillCJ 16:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think this page needs a number of things, which may or may not be appropiate for the sub articles:-

• A list of users of the aircraft, including when they begun using the type, and which types they use(d)

and any differences in the variety they are using. 

• Also, the proposed sale to Australia of the Sea HArrier would also be quite interesting to include. See[1] for more info.
• theres plenty of info on this page which should be incorporated, and links needed to be added to each page to that site [2]

Tom of north wales 19:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language

You seem to use the English from across the pond, rather than my quaint dialect :). Given that the Harrier is of British origins, we should probably use British English throughout. Although I can read/understand British English fairly well, I don't write it in naturally. So feel free to change any dialect/spelling/grammar you feel is necessary, as you go along. For the most part, we ought to use as neutral a reading as we can.

Anyway, thanks for your input, and the original "germ" of the idea. - BillCJ 16:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Well deduced! I live in Kingston upon Thames where the Harrier was concieved. A pleasure to collaborate over such distance! I'm not going to quibble about spelling! PeterGrecian 13:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The first generation Harriers are certainly of British origin, but the Harrier II is as much American as it is British. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 16:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

That's true too. But since the British designed and developed it first, I thought we could default to their rules in case of any conflict. It doesn't seem it's going to be an issue with Peter either way though. We might end up with quite a mix in the article, so I was trying to preclude that beforehand. - BillCJ 17:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

One other thing -- remember that the Harrier project began as a multiservice project (much like JSF), and the U.S. was an equal partner. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 18:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Main article name

On second thought, I think I'd prefer to use Harrier Jump Jet as the title, because that's what it is known as to the public at large. They see no difference between the Harrier, Sea Harrier, and the various Harrer IIs. I also think it fits in with our idea of giving a basic overview of the Harrier history, and covering the basic differences between the type. There is a disambiguation page at just plain Harrier that covers all "Harrier" meanings, not just the aircraft, though it does have listings of the 4 Harrier articles. So we really don't need two disambiguation pages. I plan to keep some form of the current disambiguation format near the top of the story page, esp if we use the HJJ page. However, if you really feel it's too colloquial, I have no problem using something else that works better. - BillCJ 16:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Most readers would expect Harrier Jump Jet. The principle of 'least surprise' applies here. A good set of redirects would solve the many names issue. PeterGrecian 13:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think the colloquial term "Jump Jet" belongs in the title of a Wikipedia article. "Jump Jet" is merely an informal epithet concocted by the popular media, in much the same way as "Concordski" was used to refer to the Tu-144. Letdorf 15:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC).

It may be informal and colloquial, but I do think it fits. THis is an overview article about the Harrier family as a whole, not the particular variants, and to many people, they are all just Harriers or Jump Jets. If you'd like to propose a move, you are of course welcome to do that. This page can go back to being what it was before expansion, just a DAB page to the Harrier articles, if the move is approved. Btw, as much as people may dislike the term "Concordski", it fits perfectly. - BillCJ 16:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop culture

Something else I've noticed: The "Pop culture" sections in the Harrier I and II articles both cover the same movies, even tho different versions are used is some movies ("Living daylights" - Harrier I; "True Lies" - Harrier II, etc.). Though I am not a fan of lengthy fancruft, it would be helpful to put the existing sections in one article, with links to that section in the original articles rather than the current lists there. It would definitley keep the anti-fancruft advocates of the regular pages happy. - BillCJ 17:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. We would also need a link from the main article to the fancruft sections. I guess in the 'See Also' section. PeterGrecian 13:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I'd love to find a good public-domain-type picture of both the Harrier I and II together to use as a lead pic for the page. Any 2 varians would do, such as the AV-8A and AV-8B, GR.3 and GR.5, or the Sea Harrier FA2 and GR7. I have seen pics of the latter pair in books, esp from the last 10 years when they cruised together a lot. Just an idea. - BillCJ 23:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I bet there are some works of US government public domain pictures. Let's have a look. I took many close up photos of the Harriers at Brooklands near where I live which would be useful for a 'how it works' section. I'll upload this week if I can. PeterGrecian 13:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

like this one PeterGrecian 14:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What version of Harrier is that from? The color looks like a Sea Harrier, but I don't want to guess in the caption. Whatever info on the plane should be posted with the pic on its Image page

Will do PeterGrecian 10:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I just "stole" the Controls and handling" section from the HS Harrier article; it has a pic already, but I'm not sure which one I prefer. That one is of a Sea Harrier, so I may move it to that article if we use yours here.

[edit] Harrier Jump Jet in popular culture

While I think moving the pop culture stuff to Harrier Jump Jet in popular culture (someone renamed it to a lower-case P and C)is a good idea in and of itself, there is a danger: Stand-alone pop culture pages tend to grOW larGER. I'm not going to fight with you about it thouygh; it's not that big an issue. However, the page may get marked for speedy deletion by someone else (won't be me). I happen to think our "Jump Jet" page is a good place for them, at least while the article is still relatively small, and where we can keep the pop culture section relatively small too!

at least the main page won't be spoilt by fan cruft PeterGrecian 11:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I add a hidden in-text not right above the Video Game section that I found on another aircraft page. Maybe it will help. - BillCJ 06:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

good idea PeterGrecian 11:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Harrier Jump Jet in popular culture is, IMHO, a pretty needless page. The information there would be much better off as part of this article. - Aerobird 16:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Anything to keep the mountains of fancruft tripe out of the main page is good, IMHO. Personally, I'd rather do without except in the most significant cases. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 17:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly why Peter split it off, as noted above. I really didn't like the idea to begin with, but's noice not having all that cruft in the main Harrier aticles. Personally, I'd Afd the Pop culture page, but then the cruft would come back to the main articles! - BillCJ 17:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Structure ideas

How about

1. Introduction to the Harrier Family -> History (with main article at some stage)
2. Development -> Design, that is 'how it works'
   1. vectored thrust
   2. attitude nozzles
   3. Pegasus plumbing (how to get four jets from one engine), counter rotating spools
3. Controls and handling, shortened with main article, maybe 'Flying the Harrier Jump Jet' maybe 'Operation of ...'
4. Combat roles
5. Variants

etc.

Your comments, as always, appreciated. PeterGrecian 11:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I'm not sure, but I think you're suggesting a separate article on "Flying the HJJ". It's a good idea only if this article gets too big. For know, I'd like to see how this article shapes up first.

Also, I think we have a slightly different vision of this page. I want to cover everything in general about the Harrier here, with the variants covered on their pages. You seem to want a short page here that links to various articles covering different aspects of the Harrier, in addition to the variants. That's fine, we all have our points of view. Wikipedia isn't a dictatorship where I can force my view on anyone, and I don't want it to be.

However, we should try to reconcile our visions early on, so we aren't working at cross purposes here. A compromise could be a slightly-longer page than you envision (but shroter that what I have in mind), with a few sub-articles on the longer sub-topics. We really won't know which sub-topics are longer till we're further along on the project, so waiting to split them off till we have most of this completed might be good too.

Anyway, I'm trying to avoid any conflict in the future. Again, make your views known. No one is right or wrong here, but some ideas work better than others, and some ideas seem good in theory, but in practice fall flat. We don't always know which is which till we try. Also, for know, we two are the only ones working on the project. That makes it easier to make decisions, sucha as creating new pages, then later merging them back in if we diecide to do so.

All that said, I think we have the good beginnings of a page here, and it is shaping up well. It stands well on its own, even wtihout everything we imagine for it. So we are making progress here, and I've enjoyed working with you on it so far. Thanks.

- BillCJ 17:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'd like the article to become a good article or even a featured article. To do this it would need to be quite long. I think you are interested in the military history of the HJJ (it's definition?) and I more in the history of technology (description?). The article needs both in more or less equal amounts. I hope I can contribute a bit more in a few weeks. Thanks Bill. PeterGrecian 11:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood earlier you to be saying you wanted the description section split off. Actually, I'm fine with both "definition" and " description" sections being here. I moved the "Controls and Handling" section from the HS Harrier article in here last week. As far as the military history goes, I mainly want to deal with the concept as whole, as overview of what led to the Harrier's development and its evolvement since then, stuff that's not really dealt with in the type articles.

Anyway, it does seem we both want it to be long, so at least that's good. HJJ won't be a feature article this week, so we have plenty oftime to get it right. Anyway, I think it will be a great article when its finished, but then, what on Wiki is ever finished? - BillCJ 13:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harrier London-New York point-to-point record?

Just a bit of trivia that someone may find interesting enough to look into. Back in about 1969 I seem to remember, a Harrier broke the London-New York point-to-point record and as far as I know, still holds it. An RAF Harrier took-off from a coal yard in central London and, flight refuelled, crossed the Atlantic to land in a parking lot in central New York. This was a city-to-city record at the time and I seem to remember it appearing in the Guinness Book of Records in the early 1970s. Ian Dunster 16:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I remember reading that in a source I have too. I'll try to dig it out and see what I can post. - BillCJ 18:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

OK - BTW, I've often wondered what the onlookers at the parking lot thought of all this. Ian Dunster 14:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning the "pop culture" section

Are the flight sims included because they're flight sims, as opposed to the "gamecruft" references to other notable games featuring the Harrier (ie GTA, MGS, etc.)? Wikiproject:Aircraft didn't have an answer for me there. Also, should it not be noted that the Harrier's features are greatly exaggerated in pop culture, as it is oftentimes shown performing maneuvers that, in reality, are impossible?

Overall, my personal feeling is that this section is a messy, jumbled compilation of random appearances of the Harrier and probably the only notable information from the section is the lawsuit. I'm inclined to edit it but I'm afraid my changes may be deleted per some obscure wikirules until I'm clear on what this article's editors believe is relevant or not. -albrozdude 18:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't remeber seing your question aon teh WP:AIR talk pages, but i could have missed it. To you main question: If you think this is messy, take a look at Harrier Jump Jet in popular culture, and view some of the history before it was merged back here, and note what I did not move here! Maybee this section could use some minor clean-up and reformatting, but all the items here have been agreed to as notable at one point or another. (Note: Most of the items retained were already here before the section was split off.) As to flight sims, they are ususally considered as able to be notable (but notable in and of the fact they are flight sims), while games are usualy not, becuase they are usually highly fictionalized, while the sims are more close to reality. Hope this helps. - BillCJ 02:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. One thing I would like to do is remove this odd sentence:

"The James Bond movie The Living Daylights, and in the film Battlefield Earth."

And then just condense the rest of the information into a short paragraph, also maybe to note that in many movies and games, the Harrier's abilities and features are greatly exaggerated. -albrozdude 03:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unqualified statement

I removed the following statement from the text: The Harrier remains to this day the only military aircraft design bought by the United States from a foreign country. First, it is unsourced. Second, as written, it is patently false: The US has had a number foreign design in military service, including the DH.4, Mosquito, Spitfiire, B-57 Canberra, C-23, C-27A and J, T-6 II (PC-9), and T-45 Goshawk. - BillCJ 23:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corrected Infobox inaccuracy

I have corrected the Infobox Image caption. It said the Harrier was from the RAF, but the Squad markings are clearly 800 NAS, so it is a Royal Navy GR-7. 81.110.254.233 07:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Thanks. - BillCJ 16:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Operational History

This section should be in there. AThousandYoung 19:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• This is an overview article. The Operational history belongs in the Hawker Siddeley Harrier, BAE Sea Harrier, AV-8 Harrier II and BAE Harrier II variant articles.

A recent Time magazine article, Osprey: A Flying Shame claims that "Since 1971, more than a third of Harriers have crashed, killing 45 Marines in 143 accidents." This would seem to be a fact that if true merits mention in this overview, which is where people like myself will land first; the article implies this, by mentioning the high level of specialized skill required to fly the plane, but doesn't state the resulting consequences of this requirement (an extremely high rate of accidents and fatalities). tvleavitt (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Order of users in info box

Why is the USMC at the top? The RAF should be at the top as R is first alphabetically and it was invented In Britain for the RAF.(Morcus (talk) 02:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC))

The USMC was placed on top because it has used the largest number of all Harrier variants combined. The subject of this article is all the Harrier types, both the Is and IIs. On the page for the Hawker Siddely Harrier, the first variant, the RAF is listed first. You're welcome to try to build a consensus to change the order. - BillCJ (talk) 02:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for an Explanation as to why. Though i still feel it should be Alphabetical (Morcus (talk) 03:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC))

Well, we could remove one of the other users, like Spain, and add the Italian Navy - that would be first alphabetically :) - BillCJ (talk) 03:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Spain is first Alphabetically by Nation as the RAF is an oran of the UK.

[edit] Comparison spec table

I add a table to compare the main specs for the main Harrier models. This was BillCJ's idea, btw. A good one I think. I got most of the specs from the Norden book. But it did not cover the Kestrel. So I'm not sure on that data. Its MTOW might be for a vertical takeoff vs. a short takeoff used for the others. -Fnlayson (talk) 02:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)