Talk:Harold Macmillan

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Why are all references to his role in Forced Repatriation removed? He has been accused of being a war criminal by many people, that pov should be represented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 (talk) 23:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do we list the grandchildren and even who they married? PaddyBriggs 08:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Why remove the Harold Macmillan out of my edit to "Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton." That's his name, although his original first name was Maurice. To me your revert of this has no value. --65.73.0.137

His name was "Maurice Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton", informally merely "Harold Macmillan", but the form "The First Earl of Stockton" is (in this, and most cases) both unique and more appropriate for the required size.

I have re-performed Proteus' revert.

If you think that the standard for all Prime Minstership pages should be changed, please argue your case (here, or somewhere else); don't just ignore the wishes and opinions of others.

James F. (talk) 14:10, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

James F's revertion was correct. He simply returned the page to the standard format previously agreed and followed. FearÉIREANN 15:26, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

The full title I installed in does fit the caption. What do you think should be done? Keep James F's revertion, use my version, "Harold Macmillan", "Maurice Harold Macmillan", or "Maurice Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton"? --65.73.0.137

(I was previously 65.73.0.137) Hi! I think I get the point of the Prime Ministers' titles. Those are what they must be called officially (and not so much colloquially). I wasn't aware of it, especially since I'm an American and I don't live in England. --Marcus2

Contents 1 Supermac & Mack the Knife 2 Sexuality 2.1 filth 3 Stories and rumours 4 John Bodkin Adams 5 Nyasaland 6 MacMillan Publishers 7 Infobox

[edit] Supermac & Mack the Knife

The Supermac label was applied by cartoonist Victor Weisz, better known as Vicky. It was intended as mockery, but backfired badly.

Vicky's Supermac - Introduction by Michael Foot - £14.99 (£11.99 to PCS Members)

A unique anthology of the finest examples of Vicky's best known creation 'Supermac' (Harold Macmillan) to mark the 30th anniversary of the artist's death. Though 'Supermac' was originally intended as an attack on the Prime Minister, it somehow took on a positive role and in fact strengthened the image of the ageing Edwardian Prime Minister in the 1960s. Review of 1996 book

As for Mac the Knife, it is related to Mack the Knife, Vicky tried associating Harold Macmillan with this character from (I think) Bertolt Brecht. But I don't believe it ever caught on and should not be referenced as such.

See also this link

--GwydionM 21:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Deleted from Mack the Knife, include on this page or throw away (up to you): Probably coincidentally, Bobby Darin's version of the song was climbing the UK charts at the time of Macmillan's 1959 landslide election victory. Ewlyahoocom 21:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"Mack the Knife" is used to refer to Macmillan in a 1960 episode of Hancock's Half Hour ("The Emigrant") suggesting both that it did briefly catch on and also that it predated the Night of the Long Knives, despite what the article currently suggests ("Weisz tried to label him with other names, including 'Mac the Knife' (at the time of major cabinet changes in 1962; see below)...)"). Timrollpickering 16:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

Was Macmillan bisexual? There is no mention in the biographies but I once saw Julian Clary on TV make a passing jokey reference to Macmillan's visits to the Turkish Bath (the famous London homosexual haunt which closed in the late 70s), and he used what seemed to be Macmillan's camp nickname...which, if I recall, had the word 'vapors' or 'steamy' in it. The audience laughed as if some were aware of it, as if it was underground folk knowledge, in the same way Mountbatten's sexuality was. It was an intriguing incident. I think Michael De-la-Noy's biography of Eddy, Lord Sackville-West, makes some reference to the young Mac in this vein. Does anyone have a copy to hand?

I found this on an Irish politics forum: 'Harold Macmillan's bisexuality, along with his transvesticism [sic], were widely gossiped about. A slightly drunk JFK, a friend of Macmillan's, once reportedly inquired of the British ambassador whether "Her Majesty and Her Majesty's Prime Minister shared the same dress designer?"'Engleham 11:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] filth

Yeah, we really ought to dig up some smut! If we possibly can! It would be such a pity if an old war hero, statesman, husband and father was allowed to rest in his family grave without some muck-raking! Go! Go! Go! Find that defammatory reference if you possibly can! It's reeeally important to this article.

Just like the whole wikipedia article devoted to the fact that his fourth daughter (it is rumoured) may not have been his daughter at all! Fancy that! Suspected or rumoured illegitimacy definitely warrants a whole page on wikipedia!

Did you know that HM the Queen Mother was rumoured to have had an steamy lesbian affair with Mandy Rice-Davies? You didn't know? Well, I can write uncited balderdash as well as any other wikipedia editor.

--Amandajm 04:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

• If Macmillan indulged in (illegal) gay sex yet headed a government that criminalised it (until 1967), then that is worthy of comment. Malick78 14:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

This is disgusting...I presume Amandajm is being sarcastic, I hope so. This has no place in an encyclopedia. --Counter-revolutionary 14:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stories and rumours

Macmillan was noted for his unflappability in public. One day in September 1960, the Soviet leader, Nikita Krushchev interrupted Macmillan in the middle of a speech before the United Nations. Khrushchev, who, it seemed, had removed one of his shoes, was repeatedly banging it on a table. Famously, Macmillan calmly continued speaking: "I'd like that translated, if I may."

The above was deleted in 2004 because it was uncited. It's a good story. Does anyone know its origins? It reveals something of the politician.

On the other hand, the personal stuff regarding the legitimacy (or otherwise) of the Macmillan's daughter is a rumour and is irrelevant to the fame of the subject. If this rumour is to remain in the article, then its source needs to be cited.

--Amandajm 04:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The stories about Lady Dorothy and Boothby are quite widespread and have appeared in several short biographies of Macmillan. I'll see if I can find one of them to source it. Certainly the number of times it appears indiciates that it is considered a significant moment in Macmillan's life. Timrollpickering 11:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Re-introduced a referenced note on the Macmillan/Kruschev UN shoe-bashing incident, this is well known and should be in the article. Personally I would also like to see something on the LD / Boothby story as it's also very well known aspect of his life. MarkThomas 12:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The official biography by Horne (1988-9) would be a good start, along with talk of a nervous breakdown in the early 1930s. On the other hand Boothby's biographer Robert Rhodes James claimed to have found a tape recording of Macmillan and Boothby discussing how SM was NOT Boothby's daughter, but I don't think anybody else believes this.

Matthew Parris's Great Parliamentary Scandals covers the affair (pages 98-104 in the 1997 paperback edition). He also details Macmillan's depression. With regard's Sarah's paternity, Parris doesn't come down for definite. "It was said" (page 98), "The result, it was said, was Sarah, born in 1930 and widely thought to be Boothby's daughter." (page 100) Sarah herself only found out "that Boothby was her father" at a college dance in her late teens (probably from the remnants of gossip - the affair was widely known about at Westminster and in society but like so many not plastered all over the newspapers). There's a charming story at the end of how after Dorothy's death Macmillan burnt Boothby's love letters but didn't know how to work the garden incinerator and was chasing them half-burnt all over the garden. He then laughed about this with Boothby!

I'll try adding this to the article and sourcing it. Timrollpickering 21:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Having checked out the Robert Rhodes James biography of Boothby (1991) I'd say the affair of LD and Robert Boothby is historical fact, not a "rumour". LD was very young (<20) when she married HM, and was soon bored by him - as a younger man he was tedious and disliked by his Cavendish relations. LD seduced Boothby (not the other way round) and they pretty much lived openly together in the early 1930s after she had pursued Boothby abroad to force him to break off his engagement to an American. But HM refused to give LD a divorce, and RRJ agrees with Horne, Macmillan's official biographer, that the humiliation of his cuckolding put the iron into his soul and was the (political) making of him. Astonishingly, HM and Boothby remained on good terms throughout their lives.

Robert Rhodes James quotes some of the few surviving letters from that period. The rest were burned (all 700 of them) as discussed above.

In later years the Macmillan marriage continued for appearance's sake, although LD and Boothby remained the most important figure in each other's lives. There is a famous photo of HM and LD sitting at opposite ends of a bench which was edited, Soviet-style, to give the impression that they were sitting close together.

As to the paternity of SM, RRJ says that Boothby "accepted responsibility" for her, but also that she had "Macmillan eyes" and speculates that LD may have invented the story to try to get a divorce. He claims that another incident "too sensitive to relate" also casts doubt on this - I dare say this is the story of the secret tape recording which I was told at a dinner by RRJ's wife in the early 1990s. Others dismissed this story as absurd at the time.

Parris' account matches pretty much, although with some extra details not mentioned above that I'll add here for wider coverage.

Macmillan's mother lived in the family home and LD "was forbidden from even replanting a border in the garden without permission from Macmillan's mother. 'It must have been like a strait-jacket,' said one of Dorothy's daughters-in law." (pages 99-100). As for who started the affair, Parris suggests Boothby initiated the contact during a parlour game at a party when he deliberately hid the glasses of a friend of LD's and subsequently sent them to LD with an invitation to lunch. A few weeks later Boothby invited Macmillan and LD to his father's estate to shoot and (citing RRJ) LD made the advance on Boothby. Parris writes "Each appears to have been equally implicated from the start." (page 100) I'm reluctant to repeat the reported rumours about the physical attraction... Between 1929 and 1935 Boothby and LD were living together publicly

(The shoot took place after the 1929 election and presumably was no earlier than August 12 - the start of the season for grouse. On the question of Sarah's paternity, does anyone know exactly when in 1930 she was born?)

Macmillan only confided in his mother who advised against divorce; it would also have been damaging in his constituency. (page 101) Officially Macmillan's breakdown was diagnosed as neurasthenia due to his war wounds "but this may have been a smokescreen" (ibid). In 1935 Boothby married Diana Cavendish, LD's first cousin, having apparently made a rash proposal and found himself unable to get out of it. The marriage only lasted two years.

Finally Parris notes the belief the affair made Macmillan what he was and quotes him as saying "'all this personal trouble did strengthen my character'". (page 103) Parris also writes "Many believe that ignoring the affair for so long resulted in the blind spot which allowed him to overlook the damage done by the Profumo affair" (page 98).

I have no idea one way or the other who "many" refers to but if this belief is common amongst historians/biographers then it adds to the affair's imnportance. Timrollpickering 01:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

From the current Dictionary of National Biography:

Sarah Macmillan, born in August 1930, was later claimed by Dorothy Macmillan to be Boothby's child (she was not recognized in Burke's Peerage as one of Macmillan's children; though she was registered by Dorothy Macmillan with Macmillan as the father, the birth was not registered until six weeks after the event, on the last legal day for registration; Sarah was not named on the certificate, nor by the standard procedure for later naming). Boothby accepted responsibility for Sarah, though with considerable doubts of his own. It may be that Dorothy Macmillan hoped her claim would encourage her husband to sue for divorce.

Frankly it seems that no-one out of Macmillan, Dorothy and Boothby knew who was Sarah's biological father. Timrollpickering 11:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Bodkin Adams

I would like to add this regarding the death of his brother-in-law if I may:

On 26 November 1950, Lady Dorothy's brother Edward Cavendish, the 10th Duke of Devonshire had a heart attack whilst visiting Eastbourne. He was attended by John Bodkin Adams, the suspected serial killer, who was present when he died. The coroner was not notified as he should have been, despite the fact that the Duke had not seen a doctor in the 14 days before his death. Adams himself signed the death certificate stating that the Duke died of natural causes. 13 days before, Mrs Edith Alice Morrell, another patient of Adams, also died. Adams was tried in 1957 for her murder but controversially acquitted.^[1] Malick78 13:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nyasaland

And how about something regarding the controversy of British policing methods in Nyasaland? It produced both the Devlin and the Armitage Reports in 1959. Malick78 11:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MacMillan Publishers

"His paternal grandfather, Daniel MacMillan (1813-1857), was the son of a Scottish crofter who founded Macmillan Publishers."

I was going to edit this, but thought I'd better make sure that it was actually Daniel, rather than a Scottish crofter, who founded MacMillan Publishers. Can anyone confirm this?Dinch (talk) 09:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

"Earl of Stockton" wasn't an "honorific suffix", it was his name. And we put a person's most recent name in their infobox. Proteus (Talk) 13:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a link to the wikipedia section covering that policy. Secondly, clarity is something to be considered - 'Harold Macmillan' should really be put in the infobox title. Thirdly, when you edit, give reasons so others understand your edits. You didn't last time. Thanks. Malick78 (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Like most things on Wikipedia, it's just common practice, not explicitly stated anywhere. We started off doing what you suggest (putting people's names whilst PM in the infobox), but they were too often "updated" ("John Major" was being changed to "Sir John Major" on a ridiculously frequent basis, for instance), and if that is done there is nowhere obvious in the article stating what a person ended up as. And as "Harold Macmillan" (his most well known name) is already up there in great big letters as the title of the article, it just happened that we gave up on excepting PMs from the general practice of using the last-held name in the infobox, so the article title generally states their name whilst PM and the infobox their name when they died. And once he became Earl of Stockton, he wasn't "Harold Macmillan, who also happens to be the Earl of Stockton", he was simply "the Earl of Stockton", and was referred to and referred to himself by that name. Proteus (Talk) 15:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, it is controversial so a policy must be official: people have been editing this one bit of the article for months now and have failed to reach a consensus. Hence me reverting your edit for not stating a reason - the first time I've got involved so far. As for me, his most widely known name has to have prominence, that's just common sense I feel. The honorific is mentioned too - which should satisfy your POV. Shouldn't it? Malick78 (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

And checking the article, I see you have reverted my change without stating an edit reason again. That is unhelpful and makes wikipedia much less efficient. Please cease doing that. Malick78 (talk) 17:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Proteus it would be more useful if you would discus your removal of Prime Ministers names with the rest of us rather than unilaterally imposing your view and removing the names completely in what is coming close to edit warring on this issue. - Galloglass 18:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

They were how I have changed them back to for a very long time before they were changed. If you want them some other way, I suggest you say why it should be so. Proteus (Talk) 00:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well you have several of us informing you that its abnormal not to have a persons name in their info box, no matter who they are. Simply saying I want them without a name as you appear to be doing is not an argument that carries any weight. Please answer the points made on the Margaret Thatcher talk page where the main discussion is taking place. Thank you. - Galloglass 22:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)