Talk:Harold Holt

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Contents

[edit] Death

In much the same way that I remember hearing of JFK's death, Harold Holt's demise was a singular moment. Steve Smith & I had just spent three weeks backpacking in SW Tasmania. The first humans we had seen in half a month turned up on the trail & gave us the news - in January!. Having seen the LBJ imperial procession in downtown Sydney in October '66 - my first thought was that Oz is a truly free society - Imagine Nixon hitting the beach solo! Along the same lines, several years earlier whilst hitchhiking from the Big Smoke to Wagga Wagga (my home town), a big black limo stopped for me, - the blokes in front informed me that I was sitting where Menzies "planted his bum". I have lived in the Western United States for the last three decades & I can say with certainty that a) no US President will ever go solo ocean swimming, and that b) no US President's limo will ever pick up a hitchhiker.

Is one society more free than the other? - cheers Dave.

That is all fair comment, but it is also fair to note that no Australian PM has ever been assassinated (there has never even been an attempt), whereas four US Presidents have been assassinated, so it is hardly surprising that their security is much tighter. Adam 06:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • However, no US President has ever disappeared into the ocean, either. The closest we've had is William Henry Harrison refusing to wear a coat to his inauguration and dying of pneumonia. Xyzzyva 23:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Holt's disappearance stunned Australia enough to be marked by public lexicon, with the term 'Doing a Harry Holt' being employed as rhyming slang for 'Doing the bolt' - meaning to leave suddenly or disappear. This term is in use today, though it seems when shortened to 'Do a Harry' it becomes interchangeable with the phrase 'Do a Harry Houdini' (also meaning to disappear).

[edit] Holt Inquest

The 2005 Age article talks of an inquest yet to be held, so presumably it wasn't held in 2003 as the SMH story implies. Pete 11:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Likely explanation for Holt's death

Adam, I don't disagree with this assessment. But I though the coroner's verdict made that sort of irrelevant now. It might perhaps better follow the text about the coroner's verdict. I'm not really fussed either way. Cheers JackofOz 06:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Now that the Coroner has given a ruling, we don't need to speculate further, and the Coroner's verdict can be quoted. Adam 07:52, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Not really, if Holt was 'knocked off'. The accident theory looks like disinformation to me after reading Anthony Grey's book 'The Prime Minister was a spy'. An accident is far too simplistic. Grey's Chinese submarine story looks really quaint, but has all the hallmarks of disinformation, not Chinese hallmarks, especially in view of the witness intimidation events, which were complete overkill. So, who had an interest in making Holt go away?

Holt was a complete wildcard in international politics. He was vulnerable to blackmail, because he was a womaniser or perhaps bisexual, close to organised crime since the falsification of his lawyer qualification records in Melbourne, and a friend of China regardless who was in power. At the height of the Vietnam and Cold Wars such a person was intolerable as a Prime Minister. ASIO, the Australian Secret Service, was obvioulsy sceptical and when you look at other literature, how closely ASIO and the CIA worked hand in glove, the CIA must have known.

Greys book mentions ASIO but not the CIA - and that gives it away. The reader is not supposed to think in that direction - hm.

What Grey sees as a Harold Holt's great merit in history, shortening the Korean War, would have angered Washington. Holt passed on US plans to threaten bombardment of bases in China, if the Chinese did not cave in at the conference table. Knowing this, the Chinese did cave in, but the US might have well preferred to drop the bombs and unseat Mao. Holt spoiled that for them.

As all US activities are about US companies getting access to markets, shortening the Korean War was counterproductive for US goals. They could have had access to the Chinese market in the 1950s, if Holt had not spoilt it for them by working with China.

If you read about the Petrov affair in 1954, the Combe/Ivanov affair in1983, and other literature (Wright's 'Spycatcher', Robinson's 'The Laundrymen') which deal with secret services, it becomes very clear that the proponents of the Vietnam War needed to get rid of Holt because Holt worked for the benefit of China and Australia, instead of focussing on US access to markets.

One of the frogman who searched for Holt, became a businessman years later, operating a company that was a front for ASIO. Later literature suggests he was turned and worked for the KGB also. He has all the hallmarks of being the nameless 'Australian businessman' who was the initiator of Anthony Grey's book. The amount of time and effort that the 'nameless Australian businessman' put into tracing Holt's life is not in step with a busines mind, who is solely interested in money. He, if he indeed existed, was put up to this by those who wanted to blur tracks.

Grey's otherwise excellent analyses, thinking patterns as well as language, suggest, that he was/is part of the intelligence services himself. In hindsight, it is rather weird that Holt became Prime Minister of Australia at all. Somehow, ASIO and the CIA must have missed something, or they would have unseated Holt before he moved up in the ranks.

We've includedabout as much as Grey's theory as needs be mentioned in this biographical article, given the requirements for credible sources. Perhaps there is a need for a new article on alternate theories for Holt's death, where there would be more latitude? --Pete 16:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Possibly; an acquaintaince of mine was at the beach and told me that Holt had been drinking when he chatted to her, but she kept quiet about it for ages, I suppose it was likely to be too much trouble mentioning it.Polypipe Wrangler 12:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In Memoriam

I must admit to laughing a bit at the crassness of naming a swimming pool after him considering his unfortunate end. Kewpid 06:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

AFAICT, it wasn't a matter of "let's build a swimming pool and name it after him" so much as "he's just died and we need to name something after him, the only major building project we've got going is the swimming pool".
Mention of the memorials got deleted in an incident of vandalism[1] and didn't make it back into the article afterwards; I've re-added it (with slight expansion on the swimming pool) on the assumption that this was an oversight rather than a deliberate decision to leave it out. --Calair 06:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Private Holt

What a pity Holt's sexual life hasn't been documented like JFK's, because it runs just as deep. While at least one Australian newspaper did name Holt's mistress at the time of his death, none have ever published what his biographers know but have never published either, for lack of sources willing to go on the record: he was bisexual with an extremely healthy libido. (The male side was satisfied in later life via sailing parties organised by a former Darwin-based police chief who was homosexual.) I believe Zara was the same: in any case, theirs was a very open marriage. (edit of 22 April 2006 by 144.132.101.186)

While Holt's mistress at the time of his death has been named, what hasn't been published is the fact that he was bisexual, with an extremely healthy libido. At least one of his biographers was aware of the rumors, but no source was prepared to go on the record. Holt's homosexual side was met to a certain degree by the all-male boating cruises of a Darwin-based gay police chief. I believe Zara was the same: in any case, theirs was a very open marriage.Engleham (talk) 13:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit changed into an addition. It is considered bad form to edit someone else's comments. Peter Ballard (talk) 23:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing or Dead

This article is in categorised as missing persons, so is it fair to say "Harold Holt died on..." or should it say "...went missing on..."

Holt is not missing, he is legally dead. Adam 14:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Death

More of a query than anything: Holt's date of death preceeds the end of his commission as Prime Minister. While I realise that McEwen wouldn't have been immediately sworn in because of the hope of finding Holt, given that his death was (as I understnad it) was retrospectively deemed to be the date of his disappearance, wouldn't his commission also be legally terminated by his death. Thus, if his death is put as 17 December then his commission should also be taken to have ended on that date? Now I know that would leave the period 17 December - 20 December where Australia actually had no commissioned PM but is that any more ludicrous than a dead man being commissioned? Well, it's all more academic than anything but I was just curious if there were any constitutional law experts out there... Shadow007 08:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

A minister holding a commission from the crown continues to hold that commission until it is withdrawn, even if they are dead. Adam 09:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Is this established by law or custom? Shadow007 11:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In matters of this kind in the Westminster system custom is law. Adam 14:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing of recent expanded article

Someone has recently done an extensive rewrite and expansion of this article. Unfortunately, it was deficient in several respects.

  • The huge section on events in the Liberal Party after Holt's death is irrelevant.
  • A complete history of Australia's involvement in Vietnam is irrelevant (as are the author's opinions about it)
  • The discussion of Menzies' views on the monarchy and the US alliance is irrelevant (also full of opinions)
  • The author's opinions on what is "unfortunate", "significant", "historic" etc, and on whether Menzies was "fawning" or an "autocrat" etc, do not belong in the article. Nor does the usual tiresome eulogising of Whitlam.
  • The 1967 referendum (not plebiscite) did not change the citizenship status of indigenous Australians (an endlessly repeated error).
  • Annabelle Rankin was not the first woman federal minister.
  • All this new content is largely unsourced. I know where it comes from (Alan Reid) but the reader doesn't. Reid was an dreadful old gossip and as a hired hack of the Packers his material must be seen as partisan journalism, not history. All this stuff about Holt's last months is pure speculation on Reid's part.
  • Generally this material is journalistic, over-written, over-opinionated and dotted with errors of fact. I have cleaned up the worst of it but more editing is needed. It does not meet current Wikipedia standards on sourcing. Adam 07:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, as prime minister of Australia the consequences of his death on political matters is entirely relevant to the article. Furthermore, where else would this information go? It is certainly all historically verifiable and relevant.

As to the quality of Alan Reid as a source, that is not really up to you to judge, under wikipedia standards, if you've sourced the material to Alan Reid then you can attribute the information to him. You can't have it both ways when it comes to referencing sources (removing unsourced information you don't like and ALSO removing sources that you don't like). --I (talk) 12:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent additions to Holt article

Adam -- I acknowledge and apoligize for any shortcomings in the factual accuracy, language and referencing of my additions to this article. Sorry about that -- I can only plead that I have had to make most of the editorial changes "on the fly" and from memory, without direct access to my reference material, since I have no internet access at home at present. Also, some of the locations I have been using (e.g. my local public library) have somewhat troublesome and unreliable web access and on occasion I have lost significant portions of text during editing. PLEASE consider it a work in progress. I am still learning the Wiki referencing rules and techniques, and any advice on this would be appreciated.

I have to say that generally I found your comments somewhat bitchy and pejorative, however, apart from that, I also have to take specific issue with several of the points you raised:

  • Whilst I agree that a lengthy discussion of Australia's role Vietnam ca. 1967 is best confined to the major articles on the conflict, some mention of Holt's significant personal role in promoting and expanding Australia's involvement is IMO essential. Also, whilst I agree that the language has to be carefully considered (and I was probably overly opinionated) I definitely feel that the relationship between Holt and Johnson needs to be discussed here. I think that informed opinions -- such as Alan Renouf's stated view that Holt had in effect been seduced by his "friendship" with Johnson -- need to be canvassed, not only because of its significance at the time, but also in terms of the ongoing power relationship between the USA and Australia, up to and inlcuding the current "friendship" between Mr Howard and Mr Bush, which has clear and obvious parallels with the Holt-Johnson dynamic.
  • I am unsure how I was "eulogising" Whitlam? There is no question that he was a formidable opponent, both in parliament and in the media, that in the context of the times he was vastly superior to Calwell as a leader, and that he hurt Holt and the government significantly over the VIP planes affair. (BTW -- strictly speaking one can only eulogise somebody after they are dead.)
  • I strongly dispute the claim that a discussion 1967-68 leadership struggle is irrelevant. Holt's disappearance brought about McEwen's appointment as caretaker PM, which in turn triggered the Xmas '67 leadership crisis, an event that showed serious cracks in Coalition unity for the first time, and one that had the obvious potential to split the Coalition if mishandled. Further, McEwen's veto of McMahon took him out of the running for PM until after McEwen's retirement and led directly to the election of Gorton. All this stems DIRECTLY from Holt's unexpected death -- how can it be irrelevant?
  • I agree that Reid was a highly partisan commentator and that this needs to be stated -- e.g. it is well known that he (and Packer) were McMahon supporters and that Reid disliked Gorton intensely. However, his stature as the leader of the parlimentary press gallery at the time, and the most senior political correspondent of his day, surely deserves some respect? There can be no question about the breadth and depth of his 'insider' political knowledge, and whilst his speculations need to be acknowledged as such (which I think(?) I did), they ought to be included when they are relevant, since he is one of the few non-academic commentators of the day who wrote about Holt in any detail. I feel strongly that his remarks about matters such as reputed growing dissension within the Liberal Party prior to Holt's death and Holt's possible health problems are at least as acceptable for inclusion as the laughable urban myths about Holt being abducted by UFOs and the like.

Dunks 03:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, so I'm a bitch - you'll have to get used to that. I am however a very well-informed bitch. Some points in reply.

  • He who writes without access to his references is asking for trouble and will usually get it.
  • This is a biographical article about Harold Holt. It is not an essay on everything that happened in Australia and the world in the 20 years either side of his prime ministership. A few sentences of context, on Vietnam for example, may be justified, but not whole paragraphs of general history. You obviously know this topic well and I encourage you to write History of Australia's involvement in the Vietnam War if no-one has already done so. But not here.
  • No, events after Holt's death are not relevant. Maybe a general sentence to the effect that his death led to a period of instability in the Liberal Party would be justified, but a huge chunk out of History of the Liberal Party of Australia (another article awaiting your attention) is not. After all, where does this stop? If the 1972 election is relevant, why not 1975, or 1983?
  • I don't make any apologies for deleting you many statements of opinion - calling Menzies "fawning" and an autocrat, etc. If you can cite a source on this points (and if they are relevant), that is one thing (eg Manning Clark called Menzies "a fawning autocrat", History of Australia, Vol VI, 4765): simply stating them as facts is not.
  • I may have over-reacted on Whitlam, but I am very tired of endless Whitlam-gush at Wikipedia (and I speak as an ALP member and admirer of the Great Man). I don't now remember what you said, but I thought it overstepped the mark.
  • Using Reid as a reference is probably OK, provided his deficiencies are acknowledged. Simply recycling his opinions as facts is not OK. He may have been the Dean of the Gallery and all, but that is no guarantee of professional probity (see Alan Ramsey). In his case he was a hired hatchet-man, about as reliable as a source as Glen Milne.
  • There has recently been a new biography of Holt. I suggest you read it and then rewrite this article from scratch as a properly researched piece of history. That would be doing Wikipedia a service. Cheers Adam 10:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1966 General Election Record Majority

Compare this:

  • The transfer of power from Menzies to Holt in February 1966 was unproblematic, and at the federal election later that year the electorate overwhelmingly endorsed Holt, re-electing the Holt-McEwen Coalition government with 56% of the two party preferred vote. As of 2007, this stands as the greatest winning margin at a federal election in Australian political history.

with this:

  • The Coalition scored a stunning victory over the ALP, winning many former ALP seats and sweeping back into power with (at the time) the largest parliamentary majority since Federation.

Is it still the greatest majority since Federation? I thought that Fraser did better in 1975. In any case, one of these sentences will need to be changed. -- JackofOz 08:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional cites sought

{{Refimprove|date=November 2007}} tag was added by User :Johnfos on 4 November. I have asked the user to be more specific rather than the blanket request given that there are references at the bottom of the article - mainly books plus also the archives web site. In line citations aren't mandatory but wil be added for any fact that is challenged. I can't see anything out of the common knowledge domain in the article at present.--Golden Wattle talk 05:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Filling in Red Links

There's a couple of red links scattered through, which nevers looks good in an article looking for FA/GA status. I'm going to throw together an article on Charles ("Ceb") Barnes, so at least there is an article on each member of Holt's first ministry and then see what others I can do. --Roisterer (talk) 22:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory categories

Harold Holt is currently in Category:Disappeared people and Category:1967 deaths. However, disappeared people is a wikipedia BLP maintainence category, only for those people whose subsequent fate is unknown (ie, we don't know whether the person is alive or dead) - and it explicitly states that it is contradictory with the dead people categories. So either disappeared people goes, or 1967 deaths goes.

The fact that Holt would be/is almost 100 years old isn't a factor as far as BLP goes - the yardstick is 123 years. Thanks, Andjam (talk) 08:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)