Talk:Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA)

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[edit] Belarusian in frequency distribution table

Something doesn't add up in the table in the section Haplogroup R1a1 (Y-DNA)#Frequency distribution. Belarusian is listed three times. Both the first and the third mention use Pericic et al (2005) as a reference. But how can one source come to N 306 and R1a1 50.98 in the first mention, and to N 41 and R1a1 39.0 in the second mention? And which source is the 4 in the second mention of Belarusian? Is it reference 4, Zerjal, Wells, Yuldasheva, Ruzibakiev and Tyler-Smith? AecisBrievenbus 00:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R1a1 is not indicator of Indo-european ancestry

There exist believe, that R1a1 show indo-european ancestry. But archeology and linguistics shows, that at least partialy proto-indo-europeans had neolithic middle eastern / caucasus ancestry.

Indo-European is not necessarily European. The mainstream theory about IE origins place them at the very edge of Europe in the border between Russia and Kazakstan. Obviously also IEs should have variegated ancestries, more diverse as they expanded further and assimilated more peoples. Just that the expansion of R1a1 into Europe and Asia is generally believed to be associated to Kurgan/IE expansion.
I don't know what you mean by "archaeology and linguistic shows...". That's a very generic comment. As said before the mainstream theory places original IEs in the Samara valley, at the conventional Euro-Asian border - but rather distant from the Caucasus. They were a steppary cattle-herder people, not a mountain or farming culture.
And, please, sign your comments. --Sugaar (talk) 12:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


I agree that R1a is definetely the indicator of Indo-European origin, only the history books as recorded by the ancient people suggest it was not the Ukraine but further into Central Asia nearer to NW India & NE Iran. signed - Aryan

[edit] British R1a a minority

Always felt an outsider although the family has been in britain countless generations. After just receiving an Ancestery DNA result to find my haplogroup was R1a and to have genetic links with baltic surnames from around the 9th Century. Just the haplogroup affect hair texture and colour of skin complexation. The extend family are fairly dark against the other long establish local population of the area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.229.179 (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an error to believe that your paternal ancestry really means much regarding your actual phenotype. You could perfectly have inherited your "dark" complexion from other ancestors actually, that are not reflected in that purely paternal ancestry. A black person in the Americas for instance would perfectly have R1a1 (or more commonly R1b1c) Y-DNA, for instance, while still being 80% or even 99% of African origin. Y-DNA only tells you about your father, his father, etc. But all other acestors are hidden here (and they are a lot once you start getting deeper into your genealogical tree).
Anyhow, [WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a forum]. This page is to discuss the article, not your ancestry. --Sugaar (talk) 12:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Y-chromosome only carried by men

I don't understand why there is a picture of two girls with the text under that the y-dna is most common amongst ethinc sorbs, when the y-chromosone is only carried by men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.104.168 (talk • contribs) 08:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vikings slaves

The ammount of R1a1 chromosome is high in northern Europe but not too high, it is very high in eastern Europe though, might not the cause be that the vikings brought home slaves, and alot of these slaves were slavs? Please can someone varify theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.104.168 (talk) 08:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I wondered that too, but the timing is wrong. The eastern Vikings were setting themselves up in Slavic lands at the same time as the western Vikings were settling Iceland, which doesn't give enough time for dispersal of R1a1 westward. A better bet than the Vikings would be the Goths, up to a millennium earlier. Check out Wielbark culture. Laughingyet (talk) 08:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition to this the Gauls of Ireland have legend that their Gaelic king was of Scythian decent. This could have also brought the r1a to the British Isles. signed - Aryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.234.49 (talk) 09:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iran and Central Asia

This section of the article is pure nonsense:

Marija Gimbutas states that "the Process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical transformation, it must be understood as a military victory in terms of imposing a new administrative system, language and religion upon the indigenous groups. She writes in her book (The realdom of the Goddess) that the Proto-Europeans were peaceful agricultural farmers. So called Indo-European Aryans were Mongoloidic nomads and warriors. They were wandering in the Eurasian Steppes. About six thousands years ago, they started invading to Europe, Iran and India. They introduced the Indo-European languages and mixed with Proto-Europeans. That is why many modern Europeans have Mongoloidic features. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.144.57 (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No its not, you haven't seen national geographic, here, https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html search for M17 (R1a1) it shows such features in Ukraine and Central Asia, here is Spencer wells in Central Asia http://studgen.blogspot.com/2007/07/spencer-wells-in-europe-and-central.html... How is it then nonsense? See for yourself and do some more research, it seems what you are confusing here is the r1a1 with r1b "type" with is predominant in Europe (excluding eastern). dont just slap a POV. Thanx, best regards.Cyrus111 (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
See WP:SOURCE. The early Indo-Europeans did not have any Mongolic features. In contrast to their Altaic and Chinese neighbors, they had a Caucasian look, light hair and eyes and were easy to differentiate from their neighbors. See Tarim mummies or Tocharians. And the National Geographic link does not say anything about "Mongoloidic Aryans". Neither does the video you have posted. It says that a man in Kazakhstan has the special marker. Even if he has a Mongoloid look today (which is not surprising, since in the past 800 years, following the Mongol conquest, the genetic pool of Central Asia has been significantly changed), this does not mean that the early Indo-Europeans were Mongoloid. This is your own interpretation and WP:OR. And, by the way, you can watch the entire documentary on YouTube. The man they are talking about was living in Central Asia 50,000-60,000 years ago. That's way before the Indo-Europeans were formed as a unique ethno-linguistic group. The origin of the Indo-Europeans starts with the Kurgan culture in Ukraine 5000-8000 years ago. That means that there was a gap of some 40,000 years between the first Indo-European and the "Central Asian man" your links are referring to! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.140.231 (talk • contribs) 12:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This is not my own interpretation it comes from genetesist from National Geographic and other sources! But you probably know better. National Geographic would not wite about "Mongoloidic Aryans" (in that sense) They show the r1a1 in connetion with Mongoloidic looking people, in which they are actually more "Eur-asian" looking. What you call Caucasian is a wide group of people who can have different genetic haplotypes with any type of hair or eyes. They do not necessarily have to have the r1a1 carrying gene associated with PIE.
What you think about Caucasian being only light haired or light eyed is wrong as in those pictures you showed me, its one side of it. You can be "caucasian" and "r1a1 carrying" with black hair, brown hair blonde hair or red hair, this just has to do with the amount of melanin. You can be causasian with a different set of haplotypes than r1a1, like r1b. caucasian has "less" to do with to do with the gene you carry. meaning you can be caucasian r1a1 or caucasian r1b. Arabs are also in the group of causasians, as well as other gropus, having neither the r1a1 nor r1b, so causasian is quite broad.
Europeans used to have dark eyes and hair. Lighter hair and eyes over time "leading to blondness" has to do with depigmentation as a result of lack of sunlight and lack of certain nutritions in the diet. It turned out to be an "advantage" as some men thought it to be attractive in "females" (which it is..) and those "stood out amongst other females".
Proto-Indo-europeans Aryan were Eurasian Caucasian from the Caucasus or Eurasian steppes. They were not Neolithic Protoeuropeans in Europe where blondism now dominated the landscape, The pic of the Tocharian blonds from the 6th century AD depicted with light hair color and dressed in Sassanian style in 6th century AD, about 1500 years ago, doesn't prove they were r1a1 carrying Proto-Indo-europeans from 6000 to 8000 years ago,An example of a mummie or a depiction proves nothing more than that person/s was carrying whatever gene were somewhere at a particular time. There are also representatives of Ethiopeans in stonecarvings in Iran from Persepolis dating to 2500 years ago. Iceland has the highest percentage of r1a1 in scandinavia, see this singer from there,http://www.rupture.net/~oneray/bjork/bjork_face.jpg or http://members.aol.com/carreaux/bjork.jpg
She is not a "proto-european type" but more likely a r1a1 Proto-Indo-European, or a mix of r1a and r1b as in accordance with Marija Gimbutas and what happened when PIE introduced the I-E languages. Iceland have had virtually no outside genetic impact for a long time. There are millions of Blond people in Western Europe, however the gene in connection with PIE are virtually absent there, here the r1b is predominant. In NG you will see people with lighter hair like samis sharing same genetics as mongoloidic looking people in Russia and China and there are other similar cases. You will also see in the NG that r1a1 carrying people in Central Asia and Eastern Europe can have mongoloidic features. The man from central asia "mongoloidic looking" had a direct linkage to all modern Europeans as his genetic testing showed. It has nothing to do with Djingis khans conquest which his lineage was "spared from", Yet Djingis khan and his warriors were also "Mongoloidic" looking. And also some "Mongoloidic looking" people have "no linkage" to eachother.
Distribution of R1a (purple) and R1b (red), after McDonald (2005). See also this map for distribution in Europe.
Distribution of R1a (purple) and R1b (red), after McDonald (2005). See also this map for distribution in Europe.
For example today genetic studies show that though Oceanians resemble Africans they are the most genetically distant. Africans are more closely related to Europeans than any other group despite having different skin colors. And also Africa is the most divergent continent despte having dark skincolor. These Genetic test often provide startling answers. It has less to do with any certain look, just your genetic code. Also if anyone wants to know their lineage, one can send in a sample to NG and let them trace it for you...The link I gave shows the mongoloidic features of European ancestors its from S, wells from NG. Also the blond mummies found in china had genetic links to western eurasia (west europe), where the r1b is predominat.
See western China for r1b which is found west europe as well which was also linked to the blond mummy of your example. It has nothing to with Proto-Indo-Europeans "Aryans" of Central Asia, Eastern Europe, Northern India, or Eastern Iran who had/have r1a1. both r1a and r1b are scattered across Eurasia. Cyrus111 (talk) 18:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
What you are doing is WP:OR. The reference to Björk is irrelevant, because you do not have any qualitative data on her personal genes. Others from Iceland have different looks (see picture).
Jón Sigurðsson, leader of the Icelandic independence movement
Jón Sigurðsson, leader of the Icelandic independence movement
Claiming that the ancient Aryans/Indo-Iranians were "Mongoloid" is nonsense and has no scientific value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.140.231 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Its not " WP:OR." It´s right there in the "NG" And also from Marijas book.
Do you know how broad your definition of "Mongoloid look" is? Some of them more genetically distant to eachother than to the gentleman on the pic. And also I am not saying that ancient Iranians were mongoloidic looking! I am saying that the ancient PIE people had some Eurasian kind of look, as NG clearly Illustrates this, and as is said by Marija G who worked with this her whole life. Modern genetic testing confirms her. You do not have qualitative data on the gentleman to the right either who are very likely r1b Anglo Saxon dec, which is predominat in West Europe like GB, as you can see he looks like any older English guy or even like American Presidents, but this does not mean he is unrelated to mongoloidic looking people in Central Asia IF, they share the same r1a1. I am saying there are mongoloidic (or rather "Eurasian") looking people (like bjork) with the exact same genetic code as someone without those features. NG clearly illustrates this... Cyrus111 (talk) 23:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have her book right now in front of me. What page did you take that quote from? Or did you read that nonsense in some other book? You claim that Marijas claims such a nonsense. What book, what chapter, what page? I'll look it up! You are writing your own WP:OR, your reference to Björk is your own WP:OR (because you have absolute no credible source for that). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.154.149 (talk) 17:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Here you go, by all means,[1] Also you still have not seen NG:s description of the M17 r1a1 carriers, see for yourself, what do you see? and again no, I am not writing own WP:OR Its right there in the sources, see national geographic, read Karlos Kuriáski, Read the books. forget my reference to bjork, but you post a picture of Mr. "Jón Sigurðsson," like you have qualitative data on him. Is this the image you have in your mind regarding Proto-Indo-Europeans [2]? just curious? as you see, he look like a Western European where r1a1 linked with PIE people Central Asia, is virtually absent, the Indo-Europan lang, was introduced to Europe via cultural contact with the PIE from Eurasian steppes/Central Asia. Archaeogenetics takes away disputed origin debates, it right there in the books and sources. Cyrus111 (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Cyrus111, please don't spoil it for everybody here. This section is completely off-topic, you are pushing your single piont of view, most of this section repeats information that has been stated better and in a more balanced way elsewhere in Wikipedia and your contribution on this topic is bulged with OR. I value your interest in the topic, though your enthusiasm tends to be irrelevant to a proper representation of the subject. Your reference to Aryans is completely out of mind and I am not going in further detail to have this section improved. I removed the section because you base your "rights" for modiying the text on a consensus of your own invention. Reinserting this distorted nonsense against all odds is close to vandalizing this article on genetics and does not qualify to the kind of edits and editors WP is waiting for. Rokus01 (talk) 14:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Spoiling? What am I and Who am I spoiling it for? I am using work from scholars, nothing is my own inventions here! You´re the only one complaining about the section, What does that section Iran and Central Asia have to do with you? I am not "pushing any single view" like you say. Its right there in the books and sources, of course if r1a1 is related to a language, to migration and to other occurances then these need to be mentioned as well which it briefly does. Where is my own invention as you call it? My reference to Aryans, is not my reference to Aryans its Marija G:s ref. Not mine! I understand how you feel, but accusing others of vandalism because of a ref to Marija G and a map which shows migratory paths, is close to ridicolus. Please add something relevant and educational so people can learn something rather then removing work from a Sholars who worked with this all their life. That is disrespecful to scholars, its disresp to editors and it just shows your frustration which is really related to something else Cyrus111 (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You are just copy pasting text from other sections that other Wikipedia editors, including me, contributed to. Then you edited the copied text in such a way as to exaggerate the contribution of the Kurgan culture to the R1a1 gene distribution in relation to what has already been written on the subject. Your interpretation of the image is in contradiction to the mentioning of pre-altaic people on areas where Gimbutas proposed PIE Kurgan culture. Your reference to the work of Gimbutas is a complete anachronism, she died long before anybody had heard of Hg R1a1. An image "personally granted by a scholar" is no justification at all to insert such an image - including personal unsourced interpretations - anywhere you like. Your image, introduction of Kurgan people and "Aryans" are as off topic as Mickey Mouse. Please be less ignorant. I think your contribution here is very incoherent, in many ways. It certainly does not reflect the scholarship of people "who worked with this all their life". Please show you are able to an intelligent contribution, and stop being disruptive to the level of this article how it was. You would spoil it to everybody if this article has to be protected, or to yourself if you show utterly unable to talk sense and comply to simple WP politics. Rokus01 (talk) 15:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

To minimize personal accusations here in Wikipedia I choose to use Scholary statement which I often citate from the scholar, to avoid accusations like those you are making right now. How am I exaggerating the contribution of the Kurgan culture to the r1a1 gene? It was already written by someone else in other sections before I even started ed. this page. I added a map that now shows the mig paths. Why is that a big deal to you? Be glad if I used a line or 2 that you wrote, or has those been "fortified". Remove your personal lines if you wish but dont worry about the stuff I used from scholars. "My own stuff" has also been used by other ed. (other art.) no way did I show a hefty reaction to that. Marija died in 1994 you think they didn´t know about haplotypes then (even if she didn´t)? Comon... Recent genetic studies only confirms her work. Your ref to the altaic people is not relevant when r1a1 is measured within some populations, which has "no connection" to Proto-Indo-Europeans. And easy with the accusations, why so much aggression, is it because it´s not orbiting Eurocentrism? Thanx for the accusations and go ahead and drag this to a point where they slap a protection template on it, you´re the only one dragging us there it seems to be your agenda. Still however, it wont change the facts... Cyrus111 (talk) 16:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

For instance, the link you provide with your image says: "Note that neither this Urheimat/homeland hypothesis, nor the dozens of other ones, nor the migration routes are in fact convincingly proven." This compared with your edits advancing one particular scenario doesn't give the impression you intend to stick to your sources, if any. Please don't refer to Scholarly statements that don't show up, this might be interpreted as deceit. Rokus01 (talk) 19:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on good faith noone here I hope is here to deceit anyone, and accusing others of such makes you look bad. Those sources I used are there for everyone to see and do their own research, whats the deceit? There is no not sticking to the sources? Its right there for everyone. What Scholary statement didn´t show up? Here is an update map[3] which again there is ref. to in the image in the article. I have had personal contact with the scholar and the map is correct regarding the larger languages while slightly incorrect regarding migratory paths of Alb. and Hittie lang. Hence after agreement with him and his request as well I made the ref to his work where the updatemap on those lang can be found. In NG they link the gene to the languages and is in accordance with the location of Marija G:s Eurasian Kurgan culture, where M17 have been connected to, please read about it there and from other sources and other scholars elsewhere as well, and again Archaeogenetics takes away disputed origin debates.Cyrus111 (talk) 20:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Good faith does not apply to verifying the sourced statements you make: "The Kurgan's thesis is the predominant model of Indo-European origins and likely the origin of the spread of R1a and R1a1." Without mentioning the inaccuracy of the first part of this statement (did you ever read Mallory?), I already assume overly good faith by saying you are a either self contained joker, or an ignorant or an ignorant bad joker for mentioning Mallory (1989:185) as a reference, absolutely agnostic of R1a1. The third reference is a quote from Gimbutas I think, I really don't know what you are up to with a reference to a book on grammar: Grammar of Modern Indo-European by Karlos Kuriaki? Ah, and the first reference related to your map is about the (linguistic) SLRD method, without any reference to genes. Well, you tell a lot more of this same poor quality and none of this is sourced. Something to do with being too occupied with reviving Aryans for talking sense? Rokus01 (talk) 22:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I came here from WP:3O, and I cant even figure out the issue. Can someone please state the issues in the form of question(s)? MilesAgain (talk) 04:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The "issue" is that a Dutch nationalist and an Iranian nationalist both want genetics and history to support their pet claims about Aryans. Paul B (talk) 14:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
an excellent summary. dab (𒁳) 14:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The word entered Europe only a few hundred years ago, rest is history... Dont mix me up with Dutchboy! Cyrus111 (talk) 12:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice to see Paul Barlow back in person now the sockpuppets are dead, for giving free indications of his bad behavior. And Dbachmann still sneering as if he ever supplied the diffs I requested [4] to support his personal attacks. Rokus01 (talk) 15:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
You really do live in a fantasy world, don't you? I have no sockpuppets and never have had. Please feel free to request any checks you like. Oh, and why don't you look to see what my last edit to this article actually was before making the kind of comments you do below? It's not on my watchlist, so I only look in very rarely. Paul B (talk) 17:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello MilesAgain. I am not aware of any relevant content issue that involves nationalism. All I want to bring forward in this talk is the lack of coherence of the inserted section in relation to the article. Strange enough the administrators that normally safeguard articles from this degree of off-topic and nonsensical contributions are busy elsewhere counting the barnstars they received from Iranian nationalists (or other Aryans) and are delighted to see me struggle an unworthy fight for quality and WP guidelines. The question remains: do the contribution of Cyrus111 belong to this article or doesn't it? Thanks. Rokus01 (talk) 15:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Nationalism? lets not go there... enjoy Gods land wherever you areCyrus111 (talk) 12:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please let me ask again about this dispute

Would someone please tell me exactly what text is at issue, in terms of the versions preferred by both sides? This is one case where I wish there was an edit war, because then maybe I could figure this out from the article history. Is it this? MilesAgain (talk) 01:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this one. At the moment it seems quiet and the text has not been reinserted for a day, though I can't vouch for what will happen once the editor returns from school [5]. Rokus01 (talk) 07:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] concerning "Mongoloid" interaction

I am not taking a particular side in this controversy, although I will lean towards the side of skepticism. The "Mongoloid" is really a pseudoscientific label more than anything else.

"The problem" is since people are so governed by putting images in their head when they hear a word, word mongoloid brings up images of Chinese people or East asians in the same way if one says a "red car" or "nightsky" such image will appear in your head...It easy to shape..Cyrus111 (talk) 12:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

But IIRC, according to various articles published in the Sino-Platonic papers (a series edited by UPenn's Victor Mair) there is fairly considerable evidence of at least some sort of early interaction between Sino-Tibetans and Indo-Europeans. One such paper as an example: "Indo-European roots in Old Chinese".

Also, why is it assumed that the Proto-Indo-Europeans must have been racially homogeneous? (Saying the original creator of the Kurgan Hypothesis had knowledge of this nucleotide sequence is of course anachronistic, but I wonder if you can really say with 100% certainty that 'The early Indo-Europeans did not have any Mongolic features.') Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 00:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Because at one given time they were, also you can still find peoples with 100% r1a1 in Tajikistan and surrounding areas.Cyrus111 (talk) 12:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, if this is true I would plead for an investigation of how the Singing Whales taught their language to the Rhinemaiden that - long ago - washed ashore on our beautiful Dutch beaches! For of course, this is how it all started. And sure, race and genes change for peoples that pass their language from west to east and back west again - or vice versa. Look at the gypsies, that returned to the west with an Indo European language after having changed their R1a1 Y-DNA genes for H - without mentioning their Indic looks. The same trick could have happened over and over again. So much for the R1a1 gene, that after all has been found in the most non-IE related places you can imagine. Still, following the waves, you'll find more Western European R1b in western China than Chinese O in Eastern Europe. Or maybe the IE languages from Turfan would turn out to be the creole origin of the Chinese language? I wonder if the Chinese Aryens will be happy now... Rokus01 (talk) 22:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, intersting reading. It seems I was right though in my first reaction: the thesis presents itself that Old Chinese emerged as a mixed language, though spoken with Proto-Chinese native tongue, using mainly the Proto-Indo-European idiom which seems to have stretched from Mongolia to Europe during the third millennium B.C. in the northern part of the temperate zone. I'm sorry, no role for "Mongolic features" to early Indo-Europeans from this side... Rokus01 (talk) 17:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is getting out of hands. The talk is not about Chinese-IE contacts, but about the alleged "Mongoloid" look of the PIE. And that is nonsense. PIE and IE languages have always been transmitted by "Caucasian" people, from Ireland to Tibet. Even the Mummies of the Tarim Basin, which are remnants of the ancient Tocharian civilization and represent the eastern-most IE group, have clear "Caucasian" elements.
I agree with some others in here that one should not focus too much on controversial terms such as "Caucasian" or "Mongoloid". And, sure, there were early contacts between different groups. But, summing everything up, the general categorization of the PIE would be "Caucasian". That's the predominant view in the academic world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.154.49 (talk) 03:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont think that in the field of "haplotype genetics" they can use the term Causasian, since this involves millions of people with whole set of different haplotypes.Cyrus111 (talk) 12:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

Hey. I see that Miles already tried to ask about what the issue is here, but didn't get an actual answer. The page has been quiet for a few days, so I'm going to remove the 3O listing. If you do in fact need a third opinion on this article, please provide a clear, neutral summary below, and then readd the link to 3O. Thanks. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Females

IMHO, it's strange to keep pictures of Sorbian and Tajik girls in an article like this. They are not carriers of Y chromosome anyhow. --V1adis1av (talk) 20:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


Funny you should say that I was about to bring up the same thing myself. They really don't belong in this article though I suppose removing the pictures and replacing them w/ more appropriate subjects would most likely cause a long drawn out and dare I say even pointless discussion unless a consensus is reached (hint, hint). Geog1 (talk) 02:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Geog1

It was reported in The Gulf News February 21, 2008, UAE that scientists in the USA published two studies in the British journal "Nature" that all persons of European descent experienced a "genetic bottleneck" because a small founding population "moved" into Europe between 30,000 to 100,000 years ago.As a result, the gene pool in Europe was restricted. People of African descent are more varied genetically then Middle Easterners, who are in turn more diverse than either Asians or Europeans.A team of researchers led by Noah Rosenberg of University of Michigan and Andrew Singleton of the National Institutes of Health analysed DNA from 485 people in 29 different populations around the world to arrive at this conclusion.

[edit] Proposal to create a new WikiProject: Genetic History

I have put up a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals to create a new WikiProject, WikiProject: Genetic History.

To quote from what I've written there:

Description
A wikiproject for articles on DNA research into genetic genealogy and genealogical DNA tests; the history and spread of human populations as revealed by eg human Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups; and similar. Many such articles can be found in Category:Genetic genealogy and its subcategories, notably the subcategories on human haplogroups.
Rationale
  • My direct motivation for seeking this Wikiproject was a recent run-in at Y-chromosomal Aaron, where I desperately missed the lack of a relevant WikiProject talk page to go to, to attract the input, advice and views of knowledgeable editors in this area.
There's a lot of general public interest in the proposed subject area -- eg the Y-chromosomal Aaron page is apparently getting well over 100 hits a day, and over the last 18 months or so there's been a lot of material added, by a fair number of different editors, mostly editing different pages which are particularly relevant to them. IMO, a central wikiproject would be useful, and also a good place to be able to bring WP:OR, WP:V, and WP:general cluelessness issues for wider informed input.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology and Wikipedia:WikiProject Evolutionary biology do already exist, but their focus is much much broader. With regard to those project's charters, I believe the subject would be seen as a rather specialist niche topic area, rather out of the mainstream of those project's normal focus. On the other hand, I believe that there are a number of wikipedia editors (and readers) who are specifically interested in the subject, who would find advantage if there were a specific wikiproject for it. Jheald (talk) 12:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

If people think this would be a good idea, it's a target for WikiProjects to have at least five "interested" signatures to show there's some support, before they get going.

Alternatively, if people think it would be a bad idea, please leave a comment in the comments section.

Either way, please show what you think, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Genetic_History

Thanks, Jheald (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel claim

The following pragraph:

The Kurgan suggests that the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language spread the gene further to Asia and Eastern Europe. The low occurrence of R1a1 in Western European Indo-European speaking populations(most notably the region west of the Vistula[1] — including the enigmatic Nordwestblock — shows that this correlation with PIE cannot be extended to the "kurganized" western Corded ware and subsequent Beaker culture.[2][3] This corresponds to the now widely accepted view that kurganisation never occurred.[4]

... looks like self-research. Most of footnotes are irrelevant (a dictionary), vague "see Semino et all..." (no link, old data, unlikely claim of only 6% R1a among Germans, etc.). The main "source" about "Kurganization" is a short dictionary entry that doesn't even seem to support it clearly (it talks of pottery styles not kurgan burials nor any extensive archaeological review, it's unsourced and looks more a personal opinion than anything else).

I am deleting it, as only adds to confusion. --Sugaar (talk) 03:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

As an ex-post-facto note: the strongest of those sources (Varzari et al.) does NOT suggest a "Vistula barrier" but if anything it mentions a series of apparent genetic barriers in Europe but none at the Vistula (there would be one near the Oder though - though this one is likely to have been caused by 20th century events).
The deleted paragraph seems overall very tendentious self-research with "weasel" sources that do not justify what is written there. --Sugaar (talk) 04:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

Just letting you know that I agree w/ your decision and support it. This was clear POV pushing from the start. That particular user has a history of doing this sort of thing. Also if you have time please visit my talk page and let me know what you think about removing genetic info from various archaeo and linguistic Wikis. Thanks. Geog1 (talk) 18:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Geog1

The first sentence, The Kurgan hypothesis suggests that the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language spread the gene further to Asia and Eastern Europe. in fact represents the mainstream opinion. The remainder of the paragraph was clearly OR intended to "debunk" that hypothesis. But note that the Kurgan hypothesis is not based on genetic evidence; it at best predicts a limited gene flow in the area and period in question. The very limited presence of R1a in Italy, Spain and the British Isles corresponds exactly to the hypothesis that these territories were Indo-Europeanized very late (in the Iron Age) and were not part of any "Kurganization", which is a term used in context of the Corded Ware horizon. --dab (𒁳) 10:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)