Talk:Haplogroup E (Y-DNA)

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · history · refresh · how to use this template) This article clearly is out of date given the results published by Cruciani on March 10, 2007. For example, among other discrepancies is the statement E3b-M78 originated in eastern Africa. Cruciani notes: "In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to north-eastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a north-eastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. North-eastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa." There is much more that needs correction if the latest findings of the most active and well regarded researcher of the E haplogroup are to be reflected in this article. The opening paragraph contains the following statement: "It is important to note that haplogroup E is the only haplogroup belonging to the M168-tree that is present throughout Africa. All other branches coming from this lineage left Africa and gave birth to modern non-African human populations." O really? What is meant by "this lineage"? Did the author of this passage mean to identify M-168 as the lineage whose branches gave birth to modern non-Africans, save and except all of haplogroup E that remained behind? Or was he/she making the point some branches of E are present in Africa but some left thousands of years ago and are now regarded as non-African? There are perhaps 30 million E3b men living in Europe and the middle east today. Are they "negroid" Africans, to use the language found in this article?

Despite having a footnote reference to an article (which by the way can not be read without purchasing it) the following comments about the origin of E3b2 seems highly speculative and inappropriate to me, because not a generally held opinion:

E3b2 was present in the Maghreb and today it is the most important haplogroup of the Berbers (having arisen among the ancestral population to the Beta Israel, or Ethiopian Jews[1])

--Andrew Lancaster 09:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

About 70-80% of today's Berbers posess E3b2. The age of E3b2 seems to be lower than in other E3b-clades, only about 4000-8600 years, although some estimates are far higher.[1] In any case, E is generally estimated to be about 50 000 years old, which agrees with the advance of the wet Saharan phase, during which E must have expanded to the Saharan plateau [2] The divergence of E (roughly 25 000 years BP) coincides with the beginning of the Last Ice Age and the dessicating of the Sahara. The bearers of E must have naturally left the desert and E-lineages are thus now present both north and south of the Sahara. Centrum99 (talk) 06:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The article about Y-haplogroup E is, in general, quite poorly written and structured. It would need adding more data and some clean-up (for which I currently won't find enough time, however). Centrum99 (talk) 06:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with both the above comments, but don't see any obvious immediate actions to take right now, apart from trying to tidy up the article whenever we get a chance. I hope the changes I have made this week are positive for everyone. The article needs more work eventually. Concerning the Sahara, your ideas are very reasonable, and in my opinion similar to what a lot of people are thinking, but of course unless you are careful such a remark might be deleted as "original research". In other words I can not think of a good reference to put for this theory, at least if you put it in as the only theory.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually I should say more about the Sahara question. Part of the problem in finding a simple reference for this is that people looking at the genetics often tend to focus too much on what they can measure, which is modern populations. Therefore they write as if it is obvious that E haplotypes moved downhill in a simple migration, from the Horn of Africa. Obviously however, as can be seen by reading articles more generally about the Nile's population, the Sahara's climate change ruins all the assumptions needed for this scenario. The high concentration of some of these haplotypes in the Horn of Africa might just represent a pocket where the original Saharans were pushed to - just to create an extreme possibility.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)