Talk:Hanseatic League

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[edit] Start

Yay, JHK! Good job. Very helpful. Questions on a first read:

  1. 1st paragraph - any examples of special trading privileges to offer?
  2. Nice on the limitations (segregation in merchant quarters)
  3. To what extent was the League a league of merchants rather than a league of cities? Or, to what extent did the merchant-traders actually rule in their home cities?

--MichaelTinkler

  • Luebeck isn't in the GDR. Fixed by JHK.

Do you think the info on Lubeck from that paragraph should go in the Lubeck entry? I'm thinking it might fit better there -- a worthwhile anecdote, but I'm not sure that it goes with much of the rest of the Hansa entry -- Paul Drye

Probably should, although I think the Hansa cities that actually WERE ( ;-) ) in the Eastern Bloc need mention -- I think there's an argument to be made that their traditions of independence may have helped them to assist in the collapse of the Iron Curtain. JHK

I know it's an attempt at being helpful, but I really *detest* adding weblinks to articles. Although there is a lot of great stuff on the web, the majority of scholarly literature is still to be found in libraries (remember books?). I would really hate to see the Wiki (or Nu) -pedias being used by lazy high-school and college students et al. as a glorified search engine. Don't laugh -- this is a very good possibility. I would ask other contributors to think about whether adding links is really to the benefit of the article. In regards to the ones added here, I have read Postel's article, but it is definitely not comprehensive. JHK

It may be a good idea to have the links show for a while for wikipedians (maybe in a seperate section as a reference) , then remove them ?? user:H.J.

I think that still defeats the purpose. And some links really are better than others -- for example, the Postel article gives a very good overview of the history of the Hanse cities. It's more informative than harmful, written by a member of the scholarly comunity whose other works we can presumably access. On the other hand, the average person hitting the link won't really ask himself if the article might have been geared towards a specific purpose -- I think I remember it being addressed to a chamber of commerce or something like that. That might have some influence on what facts were included or omitted. Other links that have been posted are to personal web pages or web pages of cities, economic or genealogical organizations, etc. Here, the information must be considered suspect and biased (or maybe just less reliable, since people don't have to verify their sources and can just say what they want) until proved otherwise. This is why I am so leery of adding links anywhere -- except maybe to public domain documents. I just think it's so much better to write an article that doesn't rely on random web sites to prove its point.
Like many other former Hansa cities that found themselves under Communist government (Gdansk, for example), it reciprocated by turning as much against Communism as possible, and a small but effective right-wing underground began to thrive. After the fall of the Eastern Bloc and Reunification, these cities, and those cities near the old border, like Lübeck, that became hosts to many immigrants from the former DDR, often were the sites of severe right-wing nationalist activity, including attacks on "foreigners," usually those of Turkish descent.

How is it relevant ? And stop calling foreigners-beaters "right-wing". If they want state to stop immigration then they are certainly left-wing, (remember - Hitler was LEFT wing, a SOCIALIST). Taw 22:43 Dec 1, 2002 (UTC)

  • Hitler's campaign was largely focused on scaring people about the dangers of the Bolshevik menace.
  • Before Hitler got to power, he re-assured German industrialists that he would respect private property and fight labor unions.
  • Hitler only got to power with the help from the conservatives in the "Enabling Act" (left wing social democrats opposed it, communists had been arrested after the fire falsely blamed on them).
  • After Hitler got to power, he sent thousands and thousands of communists, social democrats and unionists into concentration camps and killed the communist leaders in Germany. He outlawed labor unions and guaranteed corporate profits for Krupp & Co.
  • Many of Hitler's moral values were perfectly compatible with typical Christian-conservative parties. He appealed to family values, destroyed "indecent" art and literature, had homosexuals arrested and killed, abortion of "Aryans" outlawed etc. He created extensive youth and family programs. He openly embraced Catholicism ("the basis of our collective morals").

Hitler did place heavy restrictions on industry production, imports, prices etc. But he did not outlaw corporations -- in fact, the profits of the large corporations soared during his regency. Many businessmen (except, of course, for the Jewish ones) continued to support Hitler and his party with much needed funds, knowing full well that he would make sure that communism couldn't gain a foothold. Ultimately, Hitler was of course interested in absolute power -- that's why we call his politics fascist.

But to call Hitler left-wing or socialist is ignorant to the extreme, and an insult to the millions who lost their lives fighting his politics. The strongest and most persistent resistance to Hitler's politics came from communists and socialists. The biggest support came from conservatives and businessmen.

As an aside, left-wing and right-wing are not really accurate labels. We have better terms: fascist, neo-fascist, liberal socialist, conservative socialist, communist, green, progressive, social democrat, christian-conservative, conservative, populist, libertarian ... "Left-wing", however, is typically associated with progressive positions on individual rights and more restrictive views on market regulation. --Eloquence

I agree, that racist pogroms are not appropriate here. It is necessary to mention them, but not in an article about a medieval trade alliance. Regarding your other statement: Of course racists are right-wing - calling them left-wing would completely reverse the habitual language use. -- Cordyph


[edit] Steelyard

Wasn't there some relationship between the Hanseatic League and London: an outpost, or something? -- The Anome 23:55, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

yes there was, Luebeck or better the Hanse was the owner of the Stahlhof a part of the riverbank (near the Tower Bridge at the Themse). This place was extra territorial.


Whatever the Hanse called it, in London it was The Steelyard.

[edit] List of former Hanse cities

It doesn't make sense to throw into one "list" every city that had a Hanse presence. Can someone separate out the major Hanse cities, where the Hanse affected the political structure? The rest go in "Cities that have had a Hanse community." --Wetman 11:24, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes in London it was called the STEELYARD(originally a weighing machine!!)and that developped into my surname STILLIARD!! I am very proud to be a descendant of members of the Hanseatic League(they had a wharf on the Thames labelled "THE STILIARDS"...on a map of London from around the 1600s)as they had a hand in the introduction of the pound sterling.

[edit] Names

Wouldn't it be historically more correct, if only the German names of Hanse cities would be used? --::Slomox >< 30 June 2005 17:48 (UTC)

I doubt it. I'd be fine with giving the German names of most of the cities first, but modern names should certainly be given. john k 30 June 2005 18:58 (UTC)

[edit] Hanseatic cities

In no way was London a member of the Hanseatic League. It had a significant League presence for trade (as did the east coast, and indeed Bristol) but it was not a member nor did it subscribe to the League. Given the current heading to the section I have deleted London from the list. I am not so au fait with the political history of Brugge and so leave it for others to determine whether it too should be removed. There may be other cities which should come off.--Silver149 4 July 2005 12:14 (UTC)

(The confidence of it is what's astonishing. A less assertive reader interested in London's place as a Hanse city might try googling "London Steelyard". --Wetman 5 July 2005 01:19 (UTC))
A less assertive non-contributor (did you notice the major edit on the english dimension of the League that I made?) might have added rather than destroyed. Being a forgiving and understanding soul I have googled as requested. The first four hits are

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/h/holbein/hans_y/1535/5born.html http://50.1911encyclopedia.org/L/LU/LUBECK.htm http://www2.hsu-hh.de/PWEB/hisfrn/hanse.html http://the-orb.net/encyclop/culture/towns/colchstr.html Not a great addition to the above - nor indeed anytjing not already included in the article. As for fingerpainting - WFMSS. --Silver149 5 July 2005 09:01 (UTC)

In a similar vein I have removed Boston. Having looked at old edits I liked the "Cities with a Hanse Presence" approach - seems more accurate. As it stands the title cannot include London or Boston (or Bristol, Bishops Lynn, York, Hull etc).--Silver149 4 July 2005 12:23 (UTC)

That "cannot" does not have a true historian's touch. Some time ago I inserted subdivisions for the "list of Hanse cities" viz. Members of the Hanseatic League; Hanse-built cities; Other Hanse-dominated cities; Cities with a Hanse community. The list was pertly removed by User:John Kenney, with the quip "Until we actually know how to divide up the list, it shouldn't be divided" That "shouldn't" did not have a deft touch either, as it turns out.
This is not editing. This is fingerpainting --Wetman 5 July 2005 01:19 (UTC)

The problem was that every city was in the "Cities with a Hanse community" section, implying that Lübeck, Hamburg, and so forth were not members of the Hanseatic League, but only "cities with a Hanse Community." If you want to change the heading to be "Cities with a Hanse community", that's fine, but we certainly shouldn't add a bunch of other empty subdivisions, implying that the cities on the current list are not part of those categories, when almost all of them are. john k 5 July 2005 02:05 (UTC)

And what on earth is this fingerpainting business? john k 5 July 2005 02:05 (UTC)

It was precisely to begin to resolve that issue that my former subheadings were introduced below the list, which I have taken the trouble to reinsert justabove, if one will look. I shall reinsert them into the article once again, this time below the list, so as not to addle. With your understanding of the Hanseatic League, perhaps you'd both be willing to set each city under its most appropriate subheading.
...Or not. At any rate, we have all weathered the deletions of User:John Kenney and User:Silver149. Now we await their contributions to this article— of a subtlety and clarity that will silence every critic, I am sure. (Removing this from my Watchlist --Wetman 5 July 2005 03:05 (UTC))
Just wilful bloody ignorance I suppose. See the (admittedly not boasted about) difference I made on 4 July at 13.08. L+K --Silver149 5 July 2005 09:01 (UTC)

You can't set up a major reorganization, and then not do it. I don't know enough about the Hanseatic League to divide the cities in that manner. Apparently, neither do you. As such, we should just leave a single list. There's no need to be obnoxious about it, either. john k 5 July 2005 03:51 (UTC)

Alright, I've been shamed into doing some research. My source is the Times Atlas of World History, which has a nice map of the Hanseatic League. Unfortunately, many of the cities on our list don't show up on it, so I left them in a miscellaneous category at the end... john k 5 July 2005 04:14 (UTC)

I like it and will dig into primary sources further. I will amend over the next few days but an excellent start. Good to see some build sandcastles where others knock them down. --Silver149 5 July 2005 09:01 (UTC)

[edit] "Port of Novgorod"

May be if the sea swells, or there's a major tectonic shift, but right now - unfortunately hundreds of kilometers away from being a port.

Ports can be inland - see Manchester. Ports are also where ships berth (cf Port of London) and Novgorod achieves that objective.--Silver149 06:58, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of cities

The list of Hanse cities should be sorted out a bit. Hamburg is not Wendish nor Pomeranian, but Saxon. The section Saxony, Thuringia, Brandenburg Circle should point out, that the area of the Saxons, not the state of Saxony is meant. What are the criteria for the chosen cities in the list? It is lacking many entries. --::Slomox:: >< 16:26, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

The list (aside from the bottom part, which was a grab bag) was derived from a map in the Times Atlas of World History that I had at hand. As far as I can gather, the circle that Hamburg was in was not specifically based on geography, so that it was in the Wendish and Pomeranian Circle despite not being Wendish or Pomeranian. But I'm not completely sure that the source is correct. john k 18:39, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Hamburg belonged as Bremen to the Saxon Circle/Quarter.--Kresspahl 06:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Hanseatic League?

Should we create a category for towns in the Hanseatic League? Should it be hierarchical? --Leifern 01:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a Category in de:wiki called "Hanse", which is very helpful. It includes not only the cities, but also ships, treaties and wars of the Hanseatic League, and it is very helpful.--Kresspahl 06:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Quotations

In its lacks of necesserary quotations this article is the beginning of the "Hanseatic overkill". Question is, from which side now this threat is coming, since Hanse is actually past...?.. and has the remaining League to react or merely to show containance? Questions over questions, the answers will be part of history 200 yrs. in future....--Kresspahl 00:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC) -- The system beginns to work again, thats history too ... Kresspahl 00:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The END?

Not exactly. See here:

The Modern Hansa, also called New Hansa, was established in 1980. It is an international voluntary city union grouping over 200 cities from 16 European states.

The first Convention of the New Hansa was held in Zwolle in 1980.

Hansa has been revived, though some of its goals may be different. And surely, for now its power is by no means comparable to that of the ages before XVI, but in few decades, who knows? See here (in English) : http://www.gdansk.pl/article.php?category=453&article=925&history=453: Cheerz, Critto


[edit] News: German Wiki Notice Board

Since it is much needed, I created the Wikipedia:German_Wikipedians'_notice_board. I am not a German, and (so) it needs people of the German wikipedian community to bring it up to scratch. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) Image:UW Logo-secondary.gif 02:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery of Maps

I have looked for some maps of the Baltic Region that might help to illustrate the changes in the territories during decades and centuries in the Baltic region, if someone could help to arrange them more properly I would be thankful. Together with the Carta Marina it may be start. Perhaps ther are some more. Since we do not know exactly which city was a member at which time - this changed from year to year too, and depending on the scale and the size of the area, I doubt that it is possible to produce a map with all hanseatic cities dotted.--Kresspahl 16:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey Kresspahl, I haven't yet created any new maps of Scandinavia, but look at this link and maybe you can find some pictures of value. Maps of all four countries in Scandinavia. All maps also have each major historical event in Scandinavia. I'll inform you or you can see when I have made some new maps of Scandinavia.--Kasper Holl 20:31, 1 Mar 2006 (CEST)

I've switched out the map at the top of the page with the map from H.F. Helmolt's History of the World, which is both easier to read and shows the Hanseatic League specifically. Hopefully, other similar maps can be found. - BanyanTree 07:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] International Hanseatic League Forum

We have created a forum of the hanseatic league and hanseatic cities in Wikipedia, to coordinate form and content of articles and portals on an international level. If you like to join, please visit: International Hanseatic League Forum and write, what you think it could do on Hanseatic League Talk. Greetings from Rostock, N3MO 16:56, 20. Mär 2006 (CET)

[edit] Suggested Improvements

This is a great article. It would be even greater if it had a section on the league's organisation - treaties, customary rules, central institutions. This might also address the question: to what extent the league was a state. A capital is mentioned; what was the difference beetween the capital and any other of the league's cities?

Some relevant stuff in the existing text:

"The League never became a closely-managed formal organisation. Assemblies of the Hanseatic Towns met irregularly in Lübeck for Hansetag, from 1356 onwards, but many towns chose not to send representatives and decisions did not bind individual cities."

"The League had a fluid structure, but its members shared some traits. First, most of the Hanseatic League (or Hanse) cities either started as independent cities or gained independence through the collective bargaining power of the League. Such independence remained, however, limited; it meant that the cities owed allegiance directly to the Emperor of the day, without any intermediate tie to the local nobility. Another similarity involved the cities' strategic locatations along trade routes. In fact, at the height of its power in the late 1300s, the merchants of the Hanseatic League succeeded in using their economic clout (and sometimes their military might - trade routes needed protecting, and the League's ships sailed well-armed) to influence Imperial policy."

Next point. (This might be beyond the remit of an encycolpedia.) Why did the Hanseatic League emerge? Would it be right to say that it emerged out of the anarchy resulting from the fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire?

AWhiteC 14:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The German-language version of this page contains a section entitled "Organisation", but unfortunately my German doesn't stretch to understanding much of it :-( AWhiteC 14:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency in naming of cities

There is a general inconsistency in the naming of the cities in the article. Sometimes the modern name is given first with the German one in parentheses, sometimes the other way around. I that they should all change to conform to the same standard. I think putting the German name first with the modern one in parentheses for disambiguation would be best (this is, after all, a historical article). I will make the change soon if no-one objects.--Causantin 17:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The sounds like the best course of action to me. john k 19:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Gotlandic Gutagard?

The "Foundation" paragraph notes "To begin with the Germans used the Gotlandic Gutagard". What is the Gotlandic Gutagard? perhaps provide an explanation, or a reference? is it a currency, a flag of convenience, or other? cheers! --mgaved 19:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Binding decisions

This statement: "Assemblies of the Hanseatic Towns met irregularly in Lübeck for Hansetag, from 1356 onwards, but many towns chose not to send representatives and decisions did not bind individual cities. "

Is absolutely wrong. Member cities could chose to either send or not send a delegate to the impromptu meetings, however, all decisions were binding. The Hansa enforced it's rule over it's member cities by exacting economic punishment to it's disobedient cities- as well as those who refused to join. In his book, "The Hansa" by E. Gee Nash, Mr. Nash makes it quite clear, that punishment was meted out for all infractions- including the selling of inferior merchandise, since a member was considered to represent all members.

Suggest you all do a little more research on the topic at hand before making blanket statements. The Hansa, along with the Venetians, were the forerunners of the modern age of capitalism and financial structures- without them, the rise to the "High Middle Ages" and thence to the Renaissance would not have been possible. It was these merchants who built the great armada that defeated the Turkish fleet at the Battle of Lepanto, thus turning back the high tide of the Ottoman Empire and forcing open the trade routes to the East, via the Mediterranean Sea. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Epublius (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Hansa capital

"Eventually, the Hansa capital moved to Danzig ..."

That's bullshit. No other city than Lübeck was ever called "Head of the Hanseatic Leage" ("Haupt der Hanse"). The assemblies called "Hansetag" used to meet at Lübeck. In its context, this suggest that at its peak, the Hanseatic Leage was lead by Danzig and no longer Lübeck, which is absolutely wrong. So it should be removed immediately.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.8.203.3 (talk • contribs) .

OK, I'll remove it. Maybe the original author meant Danzig was the largest Hansa city? Actually, it was - at least during the zenith of Hansa power. I may leave a sentence on this in place of the capital sentence. Friendly Neighbour 16:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] License plates

It should not be left unmentioned that for quite some cities the license plate for cars also shows them beeing a hanse city. Like HH for Hamburg, HB for Bremen, HL for Lübeck, HRO for Rostock e—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.176.213.226 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Translations

Could we please keep the lead free of all the translations of the "Hanseatic League" in various languages? It only serves to clutter up the lead, and it's pretty darned irrelevant since those names aren't even consistent with the languages spoken in the Middle Ages. I'm rather tempted to suggest that we remove the German translation for the same reason.

Peter Isotalo 21:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense, since modern German wasn't spoken by the Hanseatic League. Modern German spread to Northern Germany only after the time of the Hanseatic League. --::Slomox:: >< 03:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
If you look in the sources, I would bet that it's probably more likely that the majority of the references to the league were in Medieval Latin. And that raises another question: was the League perceived as a unified entity during its existence, or is it a modern historical term of convenience?
Peter Isotalo 09:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The Lingua franca from London and Flanders to Nowgorod, espeicially around the Baltic Sea was Middle Low German. Spoken and written, even in diplomatic documents.--Kresspahl 10:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
So is any of this really a good argument for having a translation that only gives the modern names? I mean, the only thing that's going to happen is that people will add the name in every single modern language that is spoken in areas once controlled by the League, and that's simply not interesting or relevant to the topic. People can just as well check out the other article links if they want the names in other languages.
Peter Isotalo 19:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An alliance of guilds, or of cities?

The first paragraph reads "The Hanseatic League was an alliance of trading guilds..." Isn't it more correct to say that the Hanseatic League was an alliance of cities? I suggest rephrasing this.--Barend 17:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It started as an alliance of merchants, organized in guilds, and then, lateron became an alliance of cities.--Kresspahl 10:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, considering that it was an alliance of cities for quite a long period of its history, I think this should be in the opening paragraph.--Barend 23:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User Sassisch's edits

On 4 November, user Sassisch made large changes to the article. He inserted large amounts of text in the code text of the article which more properly belongs on this discussion page. I am therefore moving his comments to the talk page, and reverting his changes as a whole, as most of them are controversial. I argue this case further below.--Barend 22:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sassisch's comments (moved from article page):
This article reflects heavy reliance on German and German-biased material as well as German language interference and ought to undergo further editing to neutralize this. Although the Hanseatic League was formally under the power of the empire Frankish Charlemagne had founded, the it enjoyed extensive autonomy and was a mostly Saxon organization that had few outposts in Germany proper but many outposts elsewhere. Its lingua franca was Middle Saxon, not a "German dialect." The use of "Hansa" and "Hanse" is German and is unorthodox in English. "City" ought to be used instead of "town" in many instances. The now current names of cities ought to come first, their German and Saxon equivalents second and parenthesized. Hanseatic-specific terminology ought to be given in Middle Saxon rather than in German.
The Hanseatic merchants were not Germans (irrespective of later German usurpation and propaganda) but were Saxons from (the real) Saxony: Northern Albingia, Angria (Engern), Westphalia, Eastphalia, the eastern provinces of today’s Netherlands, and the colonized regions along the Baltic Sea coast. Only some Saxonized Frisians participated, not Frisians in general. All references to the Hanseatic League ought to be revised accordingly.
We are not talking about a dialect here but about a LANGUAGE separate from German: Old Saxon > Middle Saxon > Low Saxon, now an officially recognized regional language in eight North German states and in the Northeastern Dutch provinces. References to "dialect" and "German" are based on outdated material that followed the now superceded German political line.

Sassisch's comments belong here on the discussion page where they can be debated, because although he makes some points, much of what he says is wrong. I agree that the language of the Hanseatics was a separate language from high German, but it is more common to call it Middle Low German than Saxon. His point about now current names is only partially correct. It is much more common in English (and indeed in most other languages) to use German than Polish or Baltic names for many of the cities in this article when referring to this period in time. For instance, it is wikipedia-policy (as stated at Talk:Gdańsk) to use the Danzig for that city when discussing the late middle ages. Lastly and most importantly, hearing that the Hanseatic merchants were not Germans would come as a great surprise to the merchants themselves, who for centuries referred to themselves as hansa Teutonicorum or Hansa Almaniae in latin, or dudesche hense or dutsche hanse in Low German. (Dudesch and dutsch being of course low German forms of the word which in high German is Deutsch). There is no need to talk about Lübeck being founded in "what is now Germany", as it is common practice to refer to this area as Germany, also in the middle ages, in scholarly litterature.--Barend 22:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional references

Most of the "fictional references" seems to be "trivia cruft" and not particularly relevant to the article. Olessi (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portal icon placement

FYI, you can add a link to Portal:Norway in this article, by placing {{Portal|Norway|Nuvola Norwegian flag.svg}} at the top of the see also section (or the external links section if the article has no see also section). This will display

Norway Portal

Cirt (talk) 09:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Namespace change: Hanseatic League --> Hanse

I'm proposing that we change the namespace to Hanse instead of Hanseatic League based on the following reasoning:

18. Misnamed the Hanseatic League, which literally translated to "Leaguely" League, this organization of merchant guilds from various German cities functioned informally much before the fourteenth century.

Citation: Janet L. Abu-Lughod, Before European Hegemony: The World System A.D. 1250-1350 (New York: Oxford University Press, 1989), p. 100n18

Since Hanseatic League is a misnomer based on lack of understanding of the original meaning of the word "Hanse", I think there's a strong case for moving the namespace of this article to Hanse, leaving the redirect from Hanseatic League of course. We should also note in the text of the article why the more common name "Hanseatic League" is a misnomer, using the citation above.—Perceval 00:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I follow your reasoning, however "Hanseatic League" is the most common english name for that entity [1], while "Hanse" is really the common German form. Therefore, per WP:COMMONNAME, "Hanseatic League" ought be used as the article title. Martintg (talk)
Yes, it is the most common in English. Yet, it's still embarrassingly absurd (akin to talking about "the Battle of the El Alamein," which translates back from Spanish and Arabic into "the Battle of the the the Amein"). At the very least, I think a note about the name ought to be put into the article text.—Perceval 21:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, a note is definitely required. Martintg (talk) 03:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)