Talk:Haniwa

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[edit] French article

The French article on haniwa figures looks quite good. We might consider bringing in some details and pictures from it. Theshibboleth 21:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

As does the Japanese article Theshibboleth 21:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture

Is it just me, or does anybody else think the large section on "Haniwa in popular culture" is ridiculous? None of the wikipedias in other languages have sections like that. Do people visiting this page really want to see a list of videogames with references to haniwa? Can we get rid of this section, or at the very least hive it off into a separate article? It's taking up almost three quarters of the article.--Auximines 20:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, perhaps they ought to. The inclusions in popular culture create a wide basis for the Haniwa being featured in many parts of modern culture. The second Haniwa image, in fact, has been used multiple times- La Pucelle, Link's Awakening and SaGa2 all have Haniwas that look almost identical to that. 76.28.138.83 21:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I agree with Auximines. A short, concise section is fine, but I don't like these long lists which are far too prevalent on too many pages. The vast majority of these are just not relevant. When an entire movie is devoted to retelling the life of a historical figure, that's relevant "in popular culture" information. When there's just a tiny mention of it in a single episode of an anime or on a single card of a trading card game, it's just pointless. The worst part, I feel, is that it could overwhelm the primary content of the article. I hate the idea that we should give the impression that the primary content is its appearances in popular culture, that people would be looking for it because of that, and then learning about the real history secondarily. Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of popular culture and its reallife origins. It is an encyclopedia of real academic/scholastic information, e.g. history, and the pop culture references should be extra. LordAmeth 23:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. 'In pop culture' lists in Japan-related articles are a slippery slope and unchecked tend to expand into long long lists of insignificant appearances in anime, manga and videogames. Besides, the second image doesn't really belong here, methinks. It's fanart, and not particularly good one at that. If we're gonna have an iconic-hollow-eyes-and-mouth-haniwa picture, I'd suggest something along these lines: [1] or [2].

Also, to the IP user: I'm not entirely sure what you meant by: "The inclusions in popular culture create a wide basis for the Haniwa being featured in many parts of modern culture." Could you explain? TomorrowTime 06:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the minimalist approach. Japanese cultural items or historic figures are no different from any other topic on Wikipedia. The article on Pepsi doesn't list every movie character that takes a swig; the article on Michael Jordan does not list every time he's been mentioned in a comic, basketball card, or video game; and on and on.Neier 06:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent comparisons. Don't know why I never thought of that. LordAmeth 11:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, these are extremely poor comparisons- Micheal Jordan is simply a basketball player, and thus his relevance (unless he chooses to extend it in a significant way) to culture is by and large limited to that. A Haniwa, on the other hand, is a widespread mythological figure, widely known in the extent of Japan's culture and used in many aspects of Japan's societal life. Furthermore, I think the image is great. "Not particularily good fanart" my left shoe- if you think YOU can create something of its caliber that represents the classical, iconic pot-and-arm design, you go right ahead. But insulting someone else's work is a cheap way to gain traction in a debate. I've moved the image BACK up to where it belongs. 67.94.201.2 07:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. How long do you think the following addition to a Michael Jordan 'In Pop Culture' section would hold?

In the Cartoon Network cartoon, Dexter's Laboratory, episode Omellete de Frommage, there is a reference to Michael Jordan, when Dexter imagines himself to be a basketball player.

This is exactly the petty level of referencing that occurs in plenty of Japan-related articles, and some of the references in this article were just about this level, as well.

Apart from that, let me correct you on one thing: haniwa are not mythological creatures, they are funeral pot figures. And yes, they might appear in plenty of modern media, but this article really should be much more about their original meaning - as another user pointed out above, the French and Japanese articles have extensive explanations on the actual funeral pot figurines.

As for the fanart - I might have been a bit harsh, but the fact remains that it is fanart, and such things really don't have much to do here. Anyway, the way you rephrased the description of it is fine with me. As far as I am concerned, it can stay with this description, unless we get a photograph of a real one. TomorrowTime 07:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I will also have to side with Auximines. While I personally like some anime, and feel that articles on anime have an important place/role sometimes I get the impression that anime fans are attempting to insert references to anime into EVERY Japan-related article possible, and that the sheer number of anime-related articles in wikipedia, is disproportionate to the actual importance of anime in Japanese culture/society. Japanese popular culture is much, much more than anime and video games. A single line reference to the fact that "images based on haniwa remain popular in modern Japanese culture, appearing in anime, science fiction and children's literature" should be more than sufficient, without a separate section. (Furthermore, the main article itself could be considerably expanded.) --MChew 03:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that the Japanese article includes a "see also" link to Jeeg. Whether this justifies adding a similar link to this version of the article I'll leave up to others. Kouban 00:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

There. I've created a small paragraph that details the Haniwa's stature in modern culture without using lists or excessive anime references either. It's a very small paragraph, and I believe that this description of it fits along with the included image. It's a small paragraph, but it succinctly describes the "typical" image of a Haniwa in both local Japanese and internationally released media, which is relevant. Now people can start to focus on the rest of the article. 67.94.201.2 11:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the poor writing, there are several problems with your paragraph:

Your argument for the "pot"-like appearance being accepted outside of Japan is based entirely on franchises that originated and continue to be produced in Japan
In what way are haniwas depicted as "malevolent"? This smacks of original research and at the very least needs to be sourced. And it certainly doesn't jive at all with any depictions I can think of (Animal Crossing, for one).
After fixing these problems, all your paragraph tells us is what haniwas look like in pop culture. I think pictures can do a better job of that.

-Amake 15:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted your change, as it's obvious that you didn't even read the paragraph at all. If you had actually looked at the references provided, you would have seen where in no less than three of the provided examples (La Pucelle, the Zelda series and FF Legend), Haniwas are indeed depicted as malevolent. Unless, of course, you think that attempting to massacre indiscriminate explorers is somehow an innocent activity. In all these depictions, Haniwas share several singular traits- they are enemies, they are capable of exceeding harm to whomever they encounter, and they all share the gourd-like shape. Next time try and actually read the paragraph before you wreck someone else's work. Furthermore, despite the malevolent depictions, none of the situations in which Haniwas have been placed in gives any insight into their historical contexts, oftentimes just presenting the Haniwa as a feared enemy character. 76.28.138.83 21:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Your prose is still awful, and needs to be fixed.
You don't mention La Pucelle at all, and you don't offer any info on how the two you do state support your argument.
La Pucelle was also developed in Japan, and so your "outside of Japan" claim is still entirely unsupported.
"Pop culture" is more than just video games. Do you have anything at all to say about haniwas outside of video games? If not, you should at least restrict your statement to "depictions of haniwas in video games
- I'll admit I haven't played recent FFs, but I've played most of the Zelda games; I don't remember any haniwas at all. Could you refresh my memory?
You still don't offer any actual references (see WP:REF)
The examples you offer may show haniwas as malevolent, but clearly that depiction is not universal. Do you actually have comprehensive data on a significant number of depictions in pop culture? It sure doesn't seem like you do.
Please give us some assurance that this is not original research.

I'm reinstating my changes. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia guidelines before reverting again. -Amake 22:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

1- I don't care what you think of my "prose". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia anyone can edit, not just elitists who think they know more than everyone else. 2- I didn't mention La Pucelle because it's a relatively obscure title, and didn't want to bog down the paragraph into an expansive list. 3- I know more about games in Pop Culture than Anime, and anyone who has more knowledge is free to add a reference or two. However, the sources provided are enough of a reference. 4- Haniwas are present in Link's Awakening in the Dream Shrine and in the Chamber of the Magnifying Glass, and take away no less than five hearts with each hit. I've reverted your changes- I provided sources, I provided backing, and you, on the other hand, have done nothing but attack my writing and attack me, plus nothing you did here is supported by Wikipedia's Guidelines, so I would advise that you yourself "familiarize" your own... self with those guidelines before you do any reverting. Hey, you know what would be great? Why don't you, oh, I don't know, IMPROVE the article or the paragraph, instead of just thwacking it with a metaphorical hammer in an effort to make yourself feel good? You know, if you think the prose could be worked on, then work on it. If you think you can provide a better pop culture source, then provide it. Wikipedia seems to be full of lots of people who will snootily delete a lot of people's hard work, insult its composition and generally make the site a really terrible place for people to contribute. Being mean to people might chase them off long enough for you to "get your way", but it doesn't do anything to actually help the encyclopedia at all, and in fact I would wager that if you've been as mean to others as you have to me, that maybe you've chased off some really good contributers. Nobody here gets paid to do anything, and nobody except maybe vandals comes here just so that people can yell at them, berate them or talk down to them when all they really want to do is put a little bit of the knowledge they have down here without someone popping in and being mean. As an added note- the thing about the malevolence isn't in regards to the Anime, it is in the depictions used for Haniwas in games- while Anime doesn't depict them as malevolent, there have not been any instances in game media where the Haniwa is depicted in a positive, nonmalevolent light; they are always portrayed as an enemy (usually a very powerful one) in games, which is also why the paragraph specifically mentions that said depictions within games portrays them in that fashion. 67.94.201.2 10:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I did improve your paragraph, and then you went back and reverted my changes. I don't appreciate your personal attacks on me. I have done nothing but critique your writing (which seems to be about middle school level, assuming you're a native English speaker; it is not appropriate for an encyclopedia without significant proofreading) and your arguments, which are still lacking in support (and obviously wrong re: depictions outside Japan). If you can't handle people critiquing your writing, don't post to Wikipedia.

On top of all of this, you're insisting on adding pointless trivia to an article that could otherwise be a quite enlightening bit of info on traditional Japanese art. Perhaps you should try studying haniwas beyond their appearances in anime and video games. -Amake 02:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I started adding information for this page gleamed from the Japanese article on Haniwa 埴輪, but I'm not sure what to do about references...? Konamaiki 03:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)