Talk:Handicap principle
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[edit] First Paragraph Needs work
The first paragraph needs rewording to make this concept clearer. As it is now, it seems to be a circular reference and is difficult to understand. Ideas are repeated without being clarified any further.
Eclcscribe (talk) 05:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Title
This article should really be titled the Handicap Principle, which I think is what Zahavi originally called it.
Unless one beleives that a 'principle' is something that requires a certain definition be met, and that the Handicap Theory fails to meet it... Pete.Hurd 01:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- No, what one believes is irrelevant, what matters is the name that is normally used for it. In my experience it's always called a "principle", and google confirms: [1], [2]. I agree it should be moved. David Sneek 21:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Fair enough, go for it. Pete.Hurd 21:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Not yet ready for GA
I believe this article requires more work before placing up for GA. It is too short, was not wikified, has difficult english almost unintelligible to non-scientists and could do with expansion. The nice graphs placed above by Pete Hurd need to be added in the text if they are relevant. Some reference to the counter examples are hidden in wikitext. Why? NPOV requires both sides of the arguments to be presented. It would also be nice if an image of stotting can be added to give greater graphical appeal to the article. I feel the article has potentioal for GA but after more work. It may fail in its present state. Regards, AshLin 13:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Human penis
Does this account also apply to the human penis? --Gargletheape 17:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- It's only speculative, but yes, Dawkins suggested so in The Selfish Gene (I think he was the first). The idea is that those that can't maintain an erection are likely to have something or other wrong with them. Richard001 04:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Aposematism
Are interspecific use of 'handicap' signals a form of aposematism? I've had problems with this for some time, and haven't found a clear definition of aposematism given anywhere. Basically there are two forms ways of looking at it - narrow aposematism is warning signals that say 'Don't eat me, I'm harmful', and broader aposematism say 'Don't pursue me, I'm not profitable'. For organisms that can't flee, the second one doesn't apply. But a gazelle stotting is basically the same functionally in terms of fitness as a bright coloured mushroom. The message is "Don't pursue/eat me - it isn't worth it in terms of fitness".
Some aposematic organisms also seem to display handicap principle-esque behaviors, for example the leisurely flying of poisonous butterflies seems to say 'look at how I can flutter around in front of you like this - do you think I would do that if I wasn't poisonous?' I've added it to see also, though I think it should ideally be mentioned in the article for completeness. Richard001 04:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I would say that an aposematic butterfly leisurely flying along is playing it safe. If it were to zip and zoom, then a predator might quickly snatch at it before adequately processing the signal. A slow moving toxic prey item has nothing to fear, and can move as it wishes, as long as it is recognized for what it is, and that might be facilitated by moving slowly. Pete.Hurd 06:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I've found a paper discussing this - Are Warning Colors Handicaps? Tim Guilford; Marian Stamp Dawkins Evolution > Vol. 47, No. 2 (Apr., 1993), pp. 400-416. Richard001 08:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lead simplification
The lead seems to approach the principle from a signalling theory angle. Historically, I believe the principle was introduced to explain the existence of adaptations that appear by teleological reasoning to be maladaptive. It seems so much more easy for a beginner to grasp the idea that way then to begin with the conditions for signals to evolve. IMHO, using the historical evolution of the subject is often a good way to structure conceptual articles. Shyamal 03:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Human example
Perhaps physical examples in humans should be included. Dimorphism is related to the handicap principle: all other things being equal bigger, taller males are seen as more attractive, men with more prominent, squarer jaw being more physically attractive can be seen as the human equivalent of the peacock tail because it it more biologically costly to develop and perhaps maintain. There are plenty of physical example amongst people. It's not simply limited to behavior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.235.215.194 (talk) 01:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
