Talk:Han Chinese clothing

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[edit] Repeated Vandalism

Repeated vandalism by IP: 168.216.187.89 Watch out for him —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intranetusa (talk • contribs) 06:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

123.243.252.234 traced back to 123-243-252-234.static.tpgi.com.au <------ Repeated offender of vandalism across all wiki articles it touches. Please beware of this IP and keep track of him.

Another person who vandalized the article: IP: 71.109.98.60

03:41, 16 January 2008 71.109.98.60 (Talk) (18,132 bytes) HAHA i DONT CAR3 ABOUT THiS!!!
03:40, 16 January 2008 71.109.98.60 (Talk) (18,097 bytes) <===========THiS iS BORiNG L0L
03:42, 16 January 2008 71.109.98.60 (Talk) (18,103 bytes) HAHA i DONT CAR3 ABOUT THiS!!!

Intranetusa (talk) 04:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture Uploaded

The original author of the picture posted various hanfu pics on photo shop, and allows people to use them via forums, websites, etc. The picture is "hanfu.png"

Intranetusa 00:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture Deleted

Deleted the picture of the pajama hanfu worn by the Tang emperor. I will say again. That is not representative of a typical hanfu, and probably is a Qing re-portrayal of a hanfu with qipao elements. If not, then find a better picture of a hanfu. If you wish to this pajama hanfu, state a good reason for doing so. Intranetusa 03:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

That picture is Hanfu. If it isn't then Li Bai, Du Fu, Bai Juyi, all the Chinese emperors since the Tang, all Chinese officials since the Tang, all Chinese scholars/literati since the Tang, etc are not wearing Hanfu. And it certainly is not Qing influenced. Look at the paintings and archaeological evidence. I could name a good deal of paintings painted pre-Qing that shows that the yuanlingshan was worn generally and is most certainly not exclusive or a one off/atypical. And calling it a 'pajama-Hanfu' I find unhelpful. Unless the Qing could time travel, I very much doubt it is connected to the Qing at all. If at all, I think the yuanlingshan influenced the clothing of the Manchurians and not the other way round. One should look at the evidence and analyse the origins and history of it, not assign it as 'Qing/Manchurian' just because it so happens to 'look like' a qipao which is like saying a Chinese emperor's mian (the tall crown with a flat rectangular board on top with lines of pearls dangling) is Western origin, just because it looks slightly like a mortarboard (and if you know that the Western mortarboard came into existence around the 1400s and that the mian dates from 2500BC or so, you'll intuitively know that claim is jumping to conclusions, unfounded and quite frankly rubbish)! --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 10:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If you must upload it then put it on the bottom. The Tang emperor's hanfu variant doesn't match up the hanfu blueprints directly below it. We're trying to distinguish the hanfu from the qipao, and posting hanfus on the top of the page that look like qipaos isn't helping. Intranetusa 00:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Your comparison between the headpieces and western mortarboard is unfounded. You have to realize that the pictures uploaded, especially on top, has to match the blueprints of diagonal folds of the hanfu description on the bottom. Uploading that picture repeatedly is totally unhelpful on educating the general public, and only serves to confuse people even more on the differences between the qiapo and hanfu. Intranetusa (talk) 01:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it may confuse. But one of the things we must avoid is making assumptions or making people think that _all_ round collared robes are 'not of Han origin' when some of them factually are. But I guess you are right in educating the readers first before throwing in an anomaly into the works. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 20:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moved Ming Dynasty Emperor Outfit to the Bottom

The golden Ming Dynasty Emperor Outfit doesn't resemble the original Hanfus, so I'm moving it to the bottom. Delete or replace it if you find a more suitable picture. Intranetusa 21:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the picture you are referring to is actually an image of Hanfu. And it is wear by an emperor of the Tang Dynasty (Tang Taizhong), not Ming Dynasty... I think you probably misread something. --Balthazarduju 00:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, my mistake. The emperor's outfit doesn't resemble a common Hanfu though. We should have the more common variations on the top and less common on the bottom. Intranetusa 01:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I'm still moving it to the bottom. The picture reminds me of a pajama-hanfu. It does not match up with the piece by piece description and layout of the pictures below. Intranetusa 17:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If that picture gets moved up one more time, I'm deleting it. Whoever gets moving it up better have a good reason to use that sub-standard picture in the article. Intranetusa 12:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not a good picture

I deleted the current picture because it is not representative of pure Hanfu-style. Please use another picture. -intranetusa 19:36 7 March 2007

I've moved your comment to the bottom of the talk page - per the guidelines, makes it easier to track. Anyways, what part of the picture is not representative of a pure Hanfu style? What differentiates pure from impure Hanfu? I personaly don't see much wrong with that picture, so I'm restoring it, but I welcome your arguments to the contrary. --Reverend Loki 17:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to agree with the previous user. I think the picture shows a modern designer's interpretation of the historical hanfu. Sjschen 18:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A Hanfu clothing resembles robes, sort of like a kimono. This garmet looks an a mix mash of Manchurian and quasi-Hanfu styles. If you see the movie "Hero" with Jet Li, all the characters wear traditional Hanfu. I am going to delete this picture and upload a better one. -intranetusa 21:46 14 March 2007

This "garmet" you are talking about is wear by emperor Tang Taizhong of the Tang Dynasty. It is a piece of Hanfu, and this type of upper garmet (with/without golden color) is commonly wore by Chinese emperors throughout dynasties. --67.2.145.77 20:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved this topic back up. I have uploaded two new pictures of authentic Hanfu style clothing from the movie "Hero" with Jet Li. (I own the DVD) This is an actual representation of traditional Chinese clothing, not that quasi modern interpretation of the Hanfu in the original picture that was uploaded. -intranetusa 22:10 14 March 2007

The emperor's garment is what is called a yuanlingshan or "round collared robe" and is certainly Hanfu. It was made by the Chinese themselves and wasn't imported from elsewhere. Also, officials, scholars, poets (i.e. Li Bai, Du Fu, etc) wear it. You cannot regard it as not 'pure' enough! --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 08:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hanfu or Han Chinese clothing

If anyone reads this, I've just edited the article because there was some rather untrue information posted before my edit. Potentially prank/sabotage? This article needs a LOT of work. Satsuki Shizuka 03:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Satsuki Shizuka

The pingyin of 裳 is chang2 instead of shang2 ---paintery

I think this should be moved back to Han Chinese clothing. This is the English wikipedia and we should be putting terms in English as much as possible. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 16:29, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

En, I think you are right, because now Hanfu is not very famous!!! -- Anon

Done. --Menchi 02:36, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ok.... something weird happened when I moved. Here's what happened:

I deleted the existing Han Chinese clothing as requested.
I moved Hanfu to Han Chinese clothing (as evident from the current one-event history of Hanfu)
Apparently Hanfu is moved, but the place for Han Chinese clothing is still empty. No idea where Hanfu went to. It is redirected to Han Chinese clothing.
So I un-deleted Han Chinese clothing and restored it to an earlier version (Oct 23, yesterday).

I'm clueless and have no idea how to fix this technically. I hope the restored version is up-to-date. Geesh... who knew moving a page would be so complex....... --Menchi 02:43, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not sure if this is significant or not, but when I restored Han Chinese clothing. I saw that it said it was User:Gwalla who deleted that page, not me. --Menchi 02:47, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I did delete it. It was listed on Category:Candidates for speedy deletion and, when I saw it, only contained a request for a sysop to delete it so that Hanfu could be moved there. I think we happened to delete at almost the same time. Sorry about that. — Gwalla | Talk 02:53, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So did any data went missing during this deletion-moving-undeletion-restoration? I hope not. --Menchi 02:59, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it, fortunately. Sorry about stepping on your toes there. — Gwalla | Talk 04:44, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. One could say I'm the one doing toe-steppings! It's just very confusing..... --Menchi 06:07, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Influence

Deleted all references to Hanbok. Next time someone posts something about Hanbok, I would like to see some credible evidence. Whoever wrote the article wrote about Hanbok out of their heads, full of bias and factual inaccuracies.

What are you talknig about? It is clear about that the hanbok style is similiar to hanfu, especially the korean kings cloths. Those cloths are simliar to the cloths during the Ming dynasty in China.

[edit] I am not quite confident with the structure I made!!!

If anybody has any idea about what should be put into this article or what is not needed!!! --Anon

Just keep putting more. We need as much as possible on this topic. :) (Right now we haven't even started talking about Hanfu itself...) -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 06:32, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] here is the Chinese discusson over structure for hanfu

http://www.haanen.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=42&ID=45518&page=1

we can refer to it!!!

《易经·系辞下》记载：“黄帝、尧、舜垂衣裳而天下治，盖取之乾坤。”这里的“垂衣裳”是指缝制衣裳。而且，黄帝、尧、舜所创制的衣裳依照的是《易经》中的乾坤两卦，乾为天，坤为地，一上一下，上衣下裳，于是，人身体的上半部和下半部也就都有了衣服。

[edit] Here is a site which has very elegant and beautiful pictures of Han clothing styles

Scroll down until you get to the pictures: [1] - Stancel 17:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Without pictures...

...it's hard to understand the article! A picture says a thousand words, get it? We ought to incorporate some pics of clothing in here. Mandel 20:14, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] galleries of han chinese clothing

yes,A picture says a thousand words. hey look at this,http://www.pbase.com/hanfu http://c.1asphost.com/hanfu/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38&PN=1 you can see some galleries of han chinese clothing. it's amazing,anyway.

[edit] copyright infringement

copyright tag placed. See http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01780/clothing/history.htm Outlook 18:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, right. Anybody watching this page had better clean up the copyvio toot sweet or else this article or at any rate large swaths of it are going to have to go to the bit bucked. Herostratus 05:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01780/clothing/history.htm was published in August 2005, then it would appear that that website copied from Wikipedia, since much of the current text has existed in Wikipedia since 23 October 2004 --Xiao Li 07:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You can copy and paste the content from that website into Wikipedia then, since they probably did copy from Wikipedia without giving credit. A colorful website does not mean original content. Besides, they don't even list the authors for their articles, so all of their articles probably came from Wikipedia. This article needs more content anyways, and it's not fair for the editors' hard work to be robbed by another site who took it as their own.--141.213.196.222 03:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The following address links to the people who created the site: http://thinkquest.org/library/site.html?team_id=05aug/01780. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.213.196.222 (talk) 03:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Current article

I'm liking the new rewrite of the article. The previous ones were rather messy. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 18:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Since I live near the Toronto thing, I think I'll go take a peek.Sjschen 19:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

It's getting slightly crowded. May I suggest we use only important pictures that help with the article rather than one's which seem questionable, like the film/TV ones. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 22:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is getting crowded. It is hard to argue with how effectively pictures convey the meaning of the article, though. Perhaps a few too many cinematic images. Perhaps we should restrict the images in the article proper to the bare minimum - preferably to images actually referred to by or that is a prime example of the accompanying text. However, I do feel that, with this subject, more pictures is better than fewer. So, what would you say to including most of the pictures towards the end using the Gallery Template? --Reverend Loki 22:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That would be better, though I find some of the pics not as illustrative and clear than say the rather good diagram ones which are attractive and are the only two pics which are useful to the article. There are surely more better live-action photos of Hanfu out there that are more eye-catching than the currect film/TV ones. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 10:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should put in some more pictures taken from historical paintings depicting the clothing of the eras? Sjschen 20:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I made a post here the other day, prior to the database lock, but now it's nowhere to be found. Heh. Anyways, I made a rundown of my opinion of the photos in the article. To summarize:

The first two images, one from Hero and the other of two women from an unnamed TV serial, do not add much to the article, and can be done away with. Barely see them, and they don't convey much info.
The painting of the old man in hanfu, "Bai Juyi", is good. Historical representations in paintings of hanfu generally follow a certain pattern, and this is a good example to help readers identify other such examples as they come across them. A better example may be found, but the article benefits from at least one image like this.
The painting of Imperial robes - is this even hanfu? To my untrained eye, it looks more like early Qing dragon robes, and thus out of the scope of this article. I have left a comment on the user page for the original contributor on Wikimedia commons, and will hopefully hear back on it soon.
The two diagrams are good. We might consider placing them closer to one another to better show the differences between the two. This is facilitated by their identical sizes.
The last image, a photo of a man standing, is excellent - a real world example, and it happens to be the only viable image in the article showing the 3rd layer, the outer robe which is mentioned but not otherwise depicted in the article. A better image may be found, but this one should not be removed unless it is replaced by an improvement.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. --Reverend Loki 16:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The imperial robe pic is Hanfu (it is the last emperor of the Ming dynasty by the description given). However, I'd prefer if it was something more earlier; a good example with be the Tang Taizong one. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 16:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I've made a few changes. Looks more tidy now. May I suggest that more pictures should be added when the article is expanded. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 16:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone replaced the pics of the films/TV. Surely there are better examples of film/TV ones. The Hero one looks blurry and unclear and is more of an action flaunt. I'm thinking of something from Curse of the Golden Flower which is at least clear and shows off Hanfu more... --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 14:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone deleted the last image of the man wearing the 3 layered hanfu, please restore it.

Intranetusa 17:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quote location request

《左傳》云：『中國有禮儀之大，故稱夏；有服章之美，謂之華。』

I've been searching for the exact location of this quote in the ZZ but I can't seem to find it anywhere! Could someone please tell me the chapter, or where this quote really comes from so I can cite the exact source. I added this from information somewhere then decided to search for it, but couldn't find it so I have to ask. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 10:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, after a bit of a search, I managed to find out that people are quoting this from the 定公十年 chapter. However, after going directly to this said chapter and reading through it, I have seen no trace of this quote. Either this quote is non-existant (and thus, made up), a commentary (which I would be require to see for myself as proof), or from somewhere else... --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 10:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I think I found it. It is a commentary after all! 孔颖达《春秋左传正义．定公．卷五十六．传十年》注疏. People should make it clear because it looks like a direct quote from the the original text instead of accurately specifying that it is a commentary!

[edit] Moved Picture

Whoever put the picture of the "yuanlingshan"Tang robes on top, I've moved it again. Any picture uploaded on the upper portion has to at least match the hanfu description-blueprints on the bottom...including the diagonal folding of the cloth. The variant of this specific type of hanfu, without detailed description, serves no purpose whatsoever except to confuse people. The main purpose is to distinguish the hanfu from the qiapo. If that picture is uploaded on top, this works contrary to this purpose.

Intranetusa (talk) 01:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, OK, OK. I think that's settled then. The only reason I don't want to use that pic is because the emperor faces to the right and it would look better if he faced to the left, but I suppose that is besides the point... --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 20:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok then, glad it's settled. I'll see if I can find another picture that has him facing left. If you can find a similar image of him facing left, feel free to upload it. Intranetusa (talk) 19:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Qing dynasty = modern China?

"Technically, the Qing dynasty and afterwards would be considered modern China, so the qipao would be modern clothing and not traditional."

Sorry, but this sentence is very POV. How can you say Qing Dynasty is 'modern' (a term which is entirely subjective)? We don't consider the Victorians particularly 'modern' save the industrial revo. Anything pre-20th century is not 'modern' IMHO (I would say anything that is more that 25 years old is slipping from the realms of 'modernity'). I would accept 'late Qing' but anything more is pushing it to the extremes a tad too much and is very misleading. And this is before we go onto the issue of the qusetionable rhetoric employed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieHuang (talk • contribs) 17:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, assigning any specific dates is subjective but not necessarily POV as long as that subjectivity is reflected outside of Wikipedia. In the West, "modern" can begin as early as the end of the Middle Ages as the Modern history article notes. Your strict definition of modernity as it relates to history in general is shared by few. Jonathan D. Spence's widely-read text, The Search for Modern China, uses A.D. 1600 as the beginning of his treatment and has a reasonably convincing justification for considering the era from the Qing Empire forward as modern. Of course, Chinese Marxists would use 1911 as the cutoff because they consider the pre-Republican era to be feudal." — AjaxSmack 00:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. But I still think it sounds like a sentence agruing a case for something, especially when 'technically' is used in such a manner. It sounds like a statement of fact, but fact should not be open to interpretation. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 12:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can anyone upload the following pictures to the gallery,plzZZ???

Rpoon (talk) 18:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii52/rp00n/Img240834667.jpg http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii52/rp00n/Img240834668.jpg http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii52/rp00n/Img240834666.jpg http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii52/rp00n/Img240834669.jpg THZZZZZZRpoon (talk)

The question would be why and where will they fit in? I am relectant to add computer generated imagery in favour for historical paintings or actual practice. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 12:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The word costume

I think over using this word is inappropriate. Technically, clothing becomes "costume" when it is worn outside of its original cultural or historical context. Wearing Hanfu nowadays would constitute wearing a costume, since the wearing of it is enacting an anachronism. But back in pre-Manchu times, Hanfu was simply the clothing people wore. It's inappropriate to label it "costume" unless your specifically talking about people running around in Hanfu today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.40.232 (talk) 16:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No, the word can also just mean the regular styles of clothing. see a dictionary. Johnbod (talk) 01:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, the word is open to interpretation. Everyone refers to 'national costume' and I don't think they imply anything to it. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 12:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's interchangeable in common speech. Costume would give the sense of a more elaborate clothing that you don't wear everyday. Intranetusa (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)