Talk:Hallvard Graatop

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Well, in fact you do have an article about Hallvard Graatop, but it is very debatable if you should, as what is written about him is mostly conjecture based on 18th century folklore. My suggenstion would be to delete the article you have, and dicourage all attempts at revision. Graatop simply does not deserve being mentioned in Wikipedia.

[edit] Hallvard Graatop mentioned in contemporary Danish and Norwegian records

These records were kept by the Vraalstad family for centuries and are currently held in the Norwegian government archives in Oslo. These records formed the basis of Gerhard Naeseth's pioneering English work which Melvin Voxland built upon. Olav Sannes referred to church records in his Norwegian history of that region of Telemark. I would imagine Encyclopedia Britannica also referred to them when writing their article. Wogsland 23:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

There are no church records earlier than 1623 in Norway, and that's just for one parish. In most parishes the church records start around 1700. The work of Olav Sannes is not a scientific work by modern standards, and should not be taken for evidence.

By the way, I noticed that the original wording of the article is exactly the same as found on the Wogsland Website. If you want to perpetuate old hearsays, I'll suggest that you do it at your own website, not at the Wikipedia. But this is highly infectious meme stuff. Who of us wouldn't want to include a 15th century rebel leader among our ancestors? leifbk 15:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I tried to find Hallvard Graatop in my dead tree 1978 edition of Encyclopædia Britannica, but can't locate him anywhere. Will you please tell me under which article he's mentioned? A reference to the Wikipedia article about EB can hardly be counted as evidence ;-) leifbk 16:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "Vraalstad records", ie. the documents that earlier were kept at the Vraalstad farm, they can not be taken as evidence for the Graatop connection. There are no documents there for the period 1393-1482. leifbk 06:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't spread fairy tales!

This article is a fairy tale presented as facts. It's correct that "Hallvard Graatop" is mentioned in contemporary documents, but never with any reference to his background or family. The name is probably a "nom de guerre", and he must have covered his tracks deliberately. It seems that in this respect he was successful, as there's no record of his execution.

The theory that he came from Drangedal and is historically identifiable with Halvor Roaldstad is highly speculative. However, among common people with ancestry from Drangedal this story is considered gospel, and almost every hobby genealogist of that district will trace his roots back to this mythological figure. Actually, I consider it a stamp of quality and good taste not to include him among your ancestors.

I'm willing to revise the article, but I don't want to start an edit war. leifbk 09:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed all the references to Hallvard Torbjornsson that were presented as facts, and added an opening paragraph about the actual evidence.leifbk 13:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've added the "Unencyclopedic" tag, but I have some doubts about it. Considering the widely spread "gospel" character of the Graatop myth, I think that Wikipedia should help in dispelling such myths, and not just keep quiet about them. The original encyclopedists were very vocal about dispelling myths and superstitions. leifbk 14:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns about documentation

Your concerns about source documentation are valid, but I am in the the process of moving so I don't have access to my books right now. All I can give you right now is the Library of Congress number of another one of Naeseth's work, Wrolstad Family History, which is 78-73643 and references some of that research. In July when the move is complete I will provide the full sources you have requested. Vandalizing the main article with your diatribe is not civilized behavior however.Wogsland 17:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Before accusing others of vandalism, I think that you should consider this advice from the reverting previous changes page: "Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Wikipedia, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate unless, and only unless, you as an editor possess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. Mere disagreement is not such proof. See also Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith."

As I'm living in Norway, and have been devoted to Telemark genealogy for the last ten years, I believe that I know a lot more of the recent discussion about Hallvar Gråtopp than you do. Your version of the story is of a kind that may give Wikipedia a bad reputation. leifbk 19:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the article to my latest version, and removed the "unencyclopedic" tag. I've also asked for expert advice on the major Norwegian genealogy forum, in order to produce an article that is worthy of Wikipedia. The work of Sannes and Naeseth may have been considered good in their day, but that is certainly a long time ago. Please don't turn this into an edit war. leifbk 20:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Cite some sources other than yourself Leifbk. I have added a controversy section in an attempt to appease you, but this is only pending your provision of a citation. When you write such clearly biased statements on article pages rather than the appropriate venue of the talk pages, that is Vandalism. Please take the time to justify your claims, cite sources, and don't give Wikipedia a bad name by committing Vandalism on pages which you don't agree with. If you are as knowledgeable about Telemark and Graatop as you claim I am interested in whatever information you have to share. Wogsland 22:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I am also hereby giving you fair warning under the Three Revert Rule. Let's discuss this on the talk page.Wogsland 22:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I have added a reference to the article of Claus Krag. That article sums up the current consensus among Norwegian historians regarding the Graatop story. His conclusion is that: "The claim that Hallvard Gråtopp came from Vrålstad is a loose conjecture ("løs gjetning"). Loose conjectures do not have to be disproved. Nevertheless, there are a couple of things which make it directly improbable that Hallvard Gråtopp can be connected to Vrålstad".

Thus, the burden of proof is on you. leifbk 06:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Even Olav Sannes himself, who, based upon earlier research by Ludvig Daae popularised the Graatop / Vraalstad connection in the 1924 Drangedal Bygdebok, only stated that the connection was "probable". To me at least, it seems that Naeseth and Voxland have jumped to unfounded conclusions built upon Sannes' qualified guesswork. You simply can't base a Wikipedia article on a story that, in the light of current scholarly consensus, appears as pure fiction. leifbk 06:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

If the facts in this article are disputed in published sources, make the article cover the dispute rather than removing disputed information. Historiography articles are legitimate subjects.--BirgitteSB 11:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

At present the sources for this article seem extremely thin. If they don't get a lot stronger soon I suggest that the article be nominated for deletion. A family history does not constitute a reliable source. For something this long ago, and where documentation is so hard to get, I'd expect to see articles or books by real historians, preferably some in English. EdJohnston 02:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article probably should be deleted. On the other hand I think that Wikipedia has a mission in debunking folkloristic myths that are unfounded in science, and certainly not present such myths as facts. The vehement opposition from Wogsland against presenting a more balanced POV illustrates precisely the "evangelistic" nature of this myth among people who want to include Graatop among their ancestors. leifbk 17:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)