Talk:Halloween/Archive 9

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[edit] Partisan POV version requires change

The version which is online now is highly partisan and in violation of the NPOV rule. I redited the article and created a balanced version using neutral wording. However, the version which user User:Kathryn NicDhàna inserted and which is now online is highly partisan uses POV wording "Other Christians get very emotional about Halloween", "A response among some fundamentalist Christians" "Some fundamentalists consider" and removed most of the references, links and literature. From 12 books a single one is supporting the position held by many christians. Most of the others have been removed by User:Kathryn NicDhàna [[1]] The article which is now online is in clear violation of the NPOV rule and can not stand as it is. I suggested a resonable way to go and to discuss this subject. I hope that this forum is able to discus even controversies with respect and tolerance towards others. Caloon2000 08:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Having had a quick look at only the section (Religious controversies) both today's protected version and an edit by Caloon2000 on 21:48, November 1, 2006, there seems to be a good foundation in the current article, but some of Caloon's ideas could probably be included. From an outsiders point of view the use of the word fundamentalist in labelling Christians who have a problem with Halloween is a bit harsh, and I think gives the wrong impression - note I am an atheist. From my experience, I know of at least two evangelical (but I would say not fundamentalist) Christians who wont read Harry Potter let alone celebrate Halloween. Also use of the word fundamentalist in the current war on terror climate and extreme animal rights campaigns, suggests a more violent response than is probably seen from Christians.
So I would propose that someone (not Caloon200) takes Caloon2000 old section and merge the useful bits in and see if the section can work with a fleshed out bit on the Christian viewpoint. Also suggest subsections possibly for the different responses. Cheers Lethaniol 13:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Emotional' sentence

I would suggest the following sentence should be removed:

"Other Christians get very emotional about Halloween, rejecting the holiday because they believe it trivializes the occult and what they perceive as evil."

My objections are that firstly it lacks a clear reference, multiple sources are indicated, however it would appear the inference that Christians are getting emotional isn't cited. Secondly, the sentence is too vague, 'Christians' also refers to Eastern Christianity for example. Lastly there is an implication that Christians are overly emotional, this represents a derogatory opinion, which isn't appropriate. Addhoc 13:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree Pinster2001 15:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I would have no problem with that, as I've said above. The "rejecting Halloween" part was there when I started work on it. Perhaps it would be better to phrase any comparative opening to that paragraph more along the lines of "Other Christians are concerned" or similar. --Kathryn NicDhàna 00:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with "Other Christians are concerned..." rephrasing. Addhoc 21:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Sentence changed. --Kathryn NicDhàna 21:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral Version as a basis for discussion

Thanks for your helpful comments! For reasons of documentation and as a basis for discussion I am posting the following draft of my suggestion which has been repeatedly removed. This article attempts to give a balanced and neutral view of the controversy and the concerns aof many Christians. The structure is as follows:

1. Basic outline of the problem

2. Position which holds that Halloween does not raise spiritual concerns and arguments for this opinion

3. Position which holds that Halloween raises specific spiritual and arguments for this opinion

4. Ways Churches deal with this problem practically

I tried to give sufficient reference for the statements I made. This is the draft which I suggest. Any constructive critiqe is welcome!


The fact that Halloween and the old Christian feast of All Saints Day are on two consecutive days have left many modern Christians uncertain of how they should react towards this tradition.[1] The issue is controversial.


Most Christians ascribe no doctrinal significance to Halloween, treating it as a purely secular entity devoted to celebrating imaginary spooks and handing out candy. Fr. Gabriele Amorth, the senior exorcist of Vatican City, said in an interview with London's The Sunday Telegraph, "[I]f … children like to dress up as witches and devils on one night of the year that is not a problem. If it is just a game, there is no harm in that."[2] The secular celebration of Halloween may loom larger in contemporary imagination than does All Saints Day. Some Christian churches commonly offer a fall festival or harvest-themed alternative to Halloween. Others focus on the Christian aspect of the following All Saints Day. Still other Christians hold the view that the tradition is not satanic in origin or practice and that it holds no threat to the spiritual lives of children: being taught about death and mortality actually being a valuable life lesson. To many Protestant churches, October 31 is also the date of Reformation Day, a minor religious festival and it is often used to reclaim the Christian aspects of the tradition, the All Saints Day, as a day of prayer.
Other Christians, including those in church leadership positions[3], consider Halloween as incompatible[4] and conflicting [5]with the Christian faith,[6] due to its preoccupation with the occult in symbols, masks and costumes,[7] its origin as pagan festival of the dead, and the fact that it is considered by satanists and other occult groups [8] as a festival [9] celebrated with certain rituals.[10] They argue that Halloween is also a prime recruiting season for satanists and therefore poses a considerable chance for children to convert. They point out that while even many Christians may participate "all in fun," Halloween is serious business for satanists and witches.[6] Others are concerned about vandalism and destructive behavior after a church had become a victim of destructive "shock rituals" by satanists leading to targeted monitoring of these gatherings by the police.[11] Another argument brought forward is that according adherents of Wicca (witchcraft) practices “Halloween is one of the four major Sabbats celebrated by the modern Witch, and it is by far the most popular and important of the eight that are observed. . . Witches regard Halloween as their New Year’s Eve, celebrating it with ... rituals..." [12] The concerns many Christians have are shared by members across the denominations on the ground that it trivializes the occult and what they perceive as evil. Evangelical and Protestant Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Church and many Roman Catholics [13], Jews and Muslims, object to the tradition and refuse to allow their children to participate, pointing out to its pagan origins as well as its occult imagery.[14]


The ways that Christian churches deal with Halloween are various. Most churches ignore Halloween and treat it as a merely secular tradition. In the Anglican Church some dioceses, picking up a concern amongst parents and teachers, called to focus more on the positive messages of All Saints Day, the day following Halloween.[3] For many Protestant churches, October 31 is celebrated as Reformation Day in remembrance of the Reformation. Luther's hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" is traditionally sung on this day. Other Christians, particularly Roman Catholics and the Eastern Churches, traditionally focus more on All Saints Day which is celebrated the day after Halloween as a day of prayer.[15] Other Curches, such as the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston, organized a 'Saint Fest' where Roman Catholic priests together with Christian musicians tried to bring the holiday back to its Christian roots.[13] Many Catholic churches have instituted the days before All Saints Day which is on November 1 as days of special devotion such as the tradition of "40 hours of adoration and prayer." Another response among Christians in recent years has been the use of Hell houses or themed pamphlets (such as those of Jack T. Chick) which attempt to make use of Halloween as an opportunity for evangelism.[13] The tradition, to discourage pagan celebrations and to give it a Christian meaning can be traced back historically to the eighth century when Pope Gregory III designated November 1st as All Saints' Day, a time to honor saints and martyrs. Some believe that All Saints Day was moved to November 1 to counteract the ghouls, demons, and devils that were celebrated on October 31. [16]


Objections to celebrating Halloween are not limited to those of the Abrahamic religions. Some members of the Wiccan practice feel that the tradition is offensive to real witches for promoting a stereotypical caricature of a witch.[17] Additionally, many Wiccans and other neo-Pagan adherents object to Halloween, which they perceive as a vulgarized, commercialized mockery of the original Samhain rituals which are traditionally celebrated at October 31. [citation needed] Caloon2000 16:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  1. ^ Should Christians celebrate Halloween? (HTML). www.answers2prayer.org (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  2. ^ Brandreth, Gyles (2000-10-29). 'The Devil is gaining ground' (HTML). The Sunday Telegraph. Retrieved on 2006-10-26.
  3. ^ a b Bishop challenges supermarkets to lighten up Halloween (HTML). www.manchester.anglican.org (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  4. ^ Halloween Profile (HTML) (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  5. ^ Halloween - Harmless Fun or Pagan Rituals? (HTML) (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  6. ^ a b Halloween origins and customs (HTML). “” (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  7. ^ Halloween's Occult Connection: An extensive study of the roots of Halloween (HTML) (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  8. ^ Philips, Phil [1987]. Halloween and Satanism. 091498411X. 
  9. ^ What Witches, Satanists and Other Occultists Say About Halloween (HTML) (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  10. ^ Satan group heads our way (HTML). www.news.com.au/ (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  11. ^ Satanists promise "shock rituals" in Brisbane (HTML). www.cathnews.com (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  12. ^ Phillips, Phil (1987). Halloween and Satanism. Infinity Pub, p. 146). 
  13. ^ a b c Salem ‘Saint Fest’ restores Christian message to Halloween (HTML). www.rcab.org (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  14. ^ Examples of literature representing the Christian perspective towards Halloween include Halloween: Satan's New Year (2006) by Billye Dymally, Halloween: Counterfeit Holy Day (2005) by Kele Gershom, and Halloween: What's a Christian to Do? (1998) by Steve Russo. An opposing viewpoint is found in The Magic Eightball Test: A Christian Defense of Halloween and All Things Spooky (2006) by Lint Hatcher.
  15. ^ Halloween and All Saints Day (HTML). newadvent.org (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  16. ^ What's the difference between All Saints and All Souls (HTML). uscatholic.claretians.org (n.d.). Retrieved on 2006-10-29.
  17. ^ Reece, Kevin. "School District Bans Halloween", KOMO News, 2004-10-24. Retrieved on 2006-09-14. 
Please use diffs to show the difference between your proposed "neutral" edits and the current state of the article, so that we might see how the article would change. Thanks! -- Weirdoactor 16:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, personally I don't consider this version to be an improvement, there is a POV web site http://www.answers2prayer.org used for a source, also the comment about Jews and Muslims is completely absurd and unsourced. Addhoc 18:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I second Addhoc's comment re: the reference to Jews and Muslims in the "neutral" version. I was raised in Reform Judaism, and we celebrated Halloween. I also knew of Orthodox families who let their children dress up and attend parties (featuring kosher treats!)
Although it might indeed be true that some of the more conservative sects of Judaism and Islam prohibit the celebration of Halloween; but for that information to be included in the article, a NPOV source is required. -- Weirdoactor 19:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
as a pagan i find this whole text extremly offensive, it trvialises my entire faith, from the first line "The fact that Halloween and the old Christian feast of All Saints Day" , why add old?, and the link to "halloween, harmless fun or pagan ritual" , why are these any differant?, its those unneccesary small 'digs' that lower the tone of your writings and show just how intollerant your views are.
basically i find it hard to write a reply that doesnt descend into rant about how wrong you are, people with such a blinkerd view scare me as much as paganism appears to scare you, i fear for YOUR mortal soul.
real pagans are kind and giving people, we dont even belive in good and evil, we strive to do whats constructive and beneficial, akin to the buddist path, and that last artical, it really makes me laugh, that isnt proving anythng other that PC laws misinterpreted, i have dressed up like a scary hag for halloween, and i am a witch, please dont link to such irrelavent non-sense.
there are enough christian viws on this already, this should be a small entry at the bottom of the artical if anything, because it does not tell you anything about halloween, only how some people choose to fear it.
there arnt just christians vs people who dont show a particular religious viewpoint involved here, there are other religions in the world that the kind of information above insults and makes misleading accusations against.
heres an untwisted link to a purley wiccan viewpoint, and not one from within another christian site, the description starts about halfway down - the view presented in most wiccan texts as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.39.138 (talk • contribs) 12:11, November 5, 2006 (UTC)
Be Cool. I, too, am a Pagan, but I don't feel that this process is abusive of Pagans. There's an attempt underway by a number of people to create an article that has a Neutral Point Of View, and right now it's still a work in progress. Please do feel free to pitch in, but there's no point getting angry at the unfinished process. I think we'd much rather have your help with a tricky process.
I have to say, incidentally, that I think you're over-generalizing a bit to say "real pagans are kind and giving people;" I've known some Pagans who were anything but. And to say that "we dont even belive in good and evil" is simply not true. Your branch of Paganism may not include a belief in good and evil, but that doesn't make it true for all Pagans. However, these are points that aren't really relevant to the subject at hand; if you want to debate or discuss them, I'll be glad to do so on my talk page
Regards,
Septegram 03:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

Is Halloween "most popular in Ireland". I thought that it was equally popular across Ireland, Scotland and the United States? Benson85 19:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A typo "barn bracs"

I just noticed that someone spelled Barmbrac "barn bracs"

[edit] Obvious vandalism

This paragraph is obviously written by a 15 year old named Tomás vandalizing this article:

In the original festival puppet Mayer’s were burnt whilst golden statues of Tomás were worshiped. The festival was centred around the prophecy that a great leader Tomás would arise in the year 1991. He would be marked by his intelligence. He was said to drive out the Israelites.

Good catch. I've hidden the paragraph from view. If someone else feels that it should be removed from the article altogether, they are free to do so. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 00:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Halloween in Sweden

In Sweden Halloween is celebrated the same day the Church of Sweden celebrates All saints day, the first saturday in November. This is due to a misunderstanding when the retail business organizations introduced Halloween in the mid-1990's. Christians and christian organizations do not like this connection and very few Swedes are aware that Halloween in the English-speaking countries is a non-Christian holiday celebrated October 31. /213.226.120.130 17:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a really interesting. I'm inclined to think that the whether the Swedes have it right or not depends on what the "real" Halloween is. Historically, Halloween IS a Christian holiday (it is the evening at the start of All Hallows day, by Florentine reckoning). It is, of course, celebrated almost entirely with elements of the non-Christian festival which was supplanted by Halloween. (Same sort of story for Krampus in Austria, Dec 6). So by this reasoning, tieing Halloween to All Saints Day (just another name for All Hallows - Hallow as in Holy) is the right thing to do.

If, however, it is a costume festival with candy tied to American culture, then October 31 would be the right time.

Whatever your view, it probably was not a misunderstanding. Christians and Christian organisations may not like Halloween, but it is comparable in terms of Christian tradition to Christmas. Trishm 07:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is a costume festival with candy tied to American culture, at least for the kids. For teens and young adults it's more of a drinking festival with lots of liquor, tied to American culture. /213.226.72.40 22:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Language ext.

Hello; I would like to add the Turkish language edition of this page :tr ; the name of the link would be "tr:Cadılar Bayramı" please .

Thanks, --Nerval 21:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hallowe'en Around The World

I removed the following unsourced and inaccurate statement from this section:

The pagans in Ireland in the year 835 came up with the name halloween, because they didn't 
believe in Christ our Lord they stole the word Hallowed from "Hallowed be thy name" from 
the Catholic's and made up a story that apparently the dead rise from the grave and they 
called it Halloween which is a day before All Saint's Day.

The spurious date is a clever attempt to seem authoritative, but the statement is false on its face. Aside from the point that Jesus called "Christ" isn't everyone's Lord, and the reference is therefore inappropriate for an NPOV encyclopedia, no one "stole" the word "hallowed" from anywhere. "Hallowe'en" is a contraction of "all hallows even," i.e. the evening before All Hallows Day. The notion that the dead return on that evening is no more or less reasonable than any other religious myth, and calling it a "made up" "story" is highly POV. As always, if the claim can be documented, then by all means put it back in...
Septegram 14:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jack-o'-Lantern

I have removed the addition about jack-o'-lanterns, for several reasons. First, because the bottom of the same section of the article already talks about jack-o'-lanterns. Second, because it is factually unsupported. There is no evidence that carved vegetable lanterns were associated with Halloween in Ireland or Britain before the 20th century. Nor is there evidence that the practice was brought to North America by the Irish. See the jack-o'-lantern article. — Walloon 23:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Walloon, I have been taking part in Irish Halloween celebrations since the 1960s, my parents since the 1940s and my now deceased grandparents since the late 19th century. The carved turnip jack-o-lantern, bobbing for apples, curly cay, bonfires, barnbrack and of course, trick or treating have always been central to the Irish celebration. If you look at the contributions that so many Irish individuals have made to this wiki it is easy to corroborate this information unless of course you believe that there is a huge Irish conspiracy to hi-jack the ownership of Halloween. I'm at a loss that you can claim that, "There is no evidence that carved vegetable lanterns were associated with Halloween in Ireland or Britain before the 20th century". The "Stingy Jack" story has been around in Ireland for much longer than Americans have been carving pumpkins. You then assert, "Nor is there evidence that the practice was brought to North America by the Irish". Who do you think brought the practice to America, perhaps the aliens?--Catholicjim 00:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that I am talking specifically about the association of carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween. Not simply carved vegetable lanterns. Yes, of course the Irish, the Scottish, and the English have been carving vegetable lanterns for centuries. Yes, the legend of Stingy Jack is centuries old. But — try to find any pre-20th-century reference to calling a carved vegetable lantern a "jack-o'-lantern" (or anything close to that) in Ireland or Britain. As for who brought the practice of carving vegetable lanterns to America — it could have been the English, the Scottish, or the Irish. All of them carved vegetable lanterns, but the English were in America long before the Irish. (Lest you think I'm being anti-Irish in any way, my mother is from a long line of Irish Catholics.) — Walloon 00:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

We can agree that the Irish "Stingy Jack" inspired tradition of carved vegetables grew independent of the much older Celtic inspired tradition of Halloween (Samhein). However eyewitnesses accounts state that the carved turnip lanterns have been incorporated into the Irish Halloween tradition since at least the late 19th century. There are also a number of literary accounts of turnip lanterns being placed in windows on Halloween night by superstitious Irish farming communities during the time of the Great Famine (1845-1849) Some of the variations of the "Stingy Jack" story allude to the possibility of a 'rematch' between Jack and the devil at Halloween because of the belief that the souls of the dead are temporarily unleashed on that night. And finally, the most glaring evidence of all is the name 'Jack' o-lantern. Where else do you suppose this symbol obtained this name from apart from the Irish story of Stingy Jack?--Catholicjim 01:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The name came from the story of Stingy Jack (or one of its variations). But the evidence we have is that the naming of the carved vegetable lantern occurred in North America. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term "jack-o'-lantern" originally meant a night watchman, or man with a lantern, with the earliest citation is from 1663; and later, meaning an ignis fatuus or will-o'-the-wisp. The earliest known use, anywhere in the English-speaking world, of "jack-o'-lantern" to mean a carved vegetable lantern was by the (non-Irish) American author Nathaniel Hawthorne, in his short story "The Great Carbuncle," published in 1837, several years before the Great Famine. If you have a pre-1837 source that calls a carved vegetable lantern a "jack-o'-lantern", please cite it. I spent an afternoon going through histories of Irish, Scottish, and British folklore, many written in the 19th century, without finding one such reference. If you can source your claim that the Irish brought carved vegetable lanterns to North America, please give it. You wrote, "There are also a number of literary accounts of turnip lanterns being placed in windows on Halloween night by superstitious Irish farming communities during the time of the Great Famine." Can you give be more specific about these literary accounts? (author, title, date) — Walloon 01:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Walloon, I have done a quick Google search for references and corroboration on the Irish origins of the American Jack-O-Lantern phenomena. I have to re-read a few books to find the literary sources but rest assured they are plentiful.
"Irish immigrants took the tradition of the Jack O'Lantern with them to America, as Rachel Craig, an interpreter at the park explains.
"In Ireland, people cut out heads and faces of turnips and hid them in the hedgerows as a prank during Hallowe'en and they would have carried the tradition over to America.But when they arrived in the New World, they just could not find any turnips, so they used pumpkins instead." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4383216.stm
"According to tradition, a carved-out turnip was originally used, but Irish emigrants, who fled the potato famine of the 1840s and settled in New England, found that pumpkins were far more plentiful than turnips, so they used those instead." http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/news_and_events/events_halloween.shtml
"Another custom associated with Halloween is the pumpkin or carving out faces to create the jack-o-lantern placed outside houses. The jack-o-lantern comes from an Irish folktale of a man named Jack who was drunk. Jack tricked Satan into climbing a tree and carved an image of a cross in the tree cornering the devil.
After Jack died, he couldn’t enter Heaven because of his wicked ways, and he couldn’t go into Hell either since he tricked the devil. So the devil gave Jack an ember to light his way through the darkness, according to Wilstar.com. The ember was inside an empty turnip to keep it gleaming longer.
The Irish used turnips as their jack-o-lanterns, but when they came to America they found more pumpkins available than turnips, which created the lighted hollow jack-o-lantern pumpkins used today." http://www.southend.wayne.edu/modules/news/article.php?storyid=478 and http://wilstar.net/holidays/hallown.htm
"Jack O'Lanterns were carved out of gourds, turnips, potatoes and a variety of other vegetables and lit with a candle to keep Stingy Jack (and evil spirits) away from Irish households. When Irish immigrants came to the United States in the 1800's, they brought the practice with them and began using pumpkins because they were bigger and easier to carve." http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article.php?id=1&title=Pumpkin+Carving
"The Irish took the myth of Jack of the Lantern and carved out of all sorts of foods large enough to display a face, with the idea of warding away evil spirits (and Stingy Jack) that roamed the landscape when Halloween arrived every year. Were they successful?
When Pumpkins were discovered in North America, they were quickly found to make excellent carvings. Beets, turnips and potatoes were spared in favor of pumpkins, which functioned as a food and, then, as a tool for warding away evil spirits on Halloween. Halloween, along with the jack o' lantern, was brought to America during the 1800s with a wave of Irish immigrants. It is celebrated across the continent today and has been for over a century." http://www.canucarve.com/history.php
"Although there is a great deal of history and Irish folklore behind the origin of Jack O' Lanterns, Irish immigrants were the first to turn America's pumpkins into Jack O' Lanterns. In the 1840s, a potato famine brought a flood of Irish immigrants to the U.S. The Irish brought along their custom of carving a face in a turnip to create a "Jack O' Lantern" for "All Hallow's Eve". Their original lanterns held burning embers or lumps of coal to scare away evil spirits. Their turnips were soon replaced by pumpkins, candles replaced the lumps of coal, and Jack O' Lanterns became a Halloween tradition. Every year in late October, all across America, glowing Jack O'Lanterns still sit on porches and light the night." http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art5467.asp
"It was in fact the Irish and Scottish who brought Halloween to the United States. In the 1840's Irish immigrants fled the Potato Famine and came to America. The Scottish emigrated for similar reasons, seeking to escape from poverty and the lack of economic mobility in their home country. The Jack O' Lantern comes from an Irish story about a man named Jack who tricked Satan up into a tree, then carved a cross on it, trapping him there. In some accounts, Satan is cursed to wander between heaven and hell, welcome in neither, and the jack o' lantern is the lamp he carries, a hollow turnip with a candle inside." http://firefox.org/halloween.shtml
Yes, and not one of those gives a verifiable, contemporary (i.e., pre-20th century) source for their claims. What we need to find are:
1. Any pre-20th century Irish or British reference to carved vegetable lanterns as "jack-o'-lanterns".
2. Any pre-20th century Irish or British reference associating carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween. — Walloon 08:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

GOSH!! How do you figure those dim-wit Europeans got about in the dark before those smart North Americans invented the lantern? Groped!! Turnips were used in the making of lanterns in Ireland up until the 20th centuary. Then came electricity. 86.42.146.214 23:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, read this carefully. Quit making a strawman argument. NO ONE IS DENYING THAT THE IRISH, THE SCOTTISH, AND THE ENGLISH HAVE BEEN CARVING VEGETABLE LANTERNS SINCE PROBABLY PREHISTORIC TIMES. What we are looking for is any record that any of those groups associated carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween before the 20th century. So far, no one has found any documentation linking the two (carved vegetable lanterns and Halloween) in Ireland, Scotland, or England, before the 20th century. I have found the linkage made in Canada and the United States in the 19th century, and I gave exact quotations in the footnotes to the article on jack-o'-lanterns. I have also been unable to find any Irish, Scottish, or English source that calls carved vegetable lanterns "jack-o'-lanterns" before the 20th century. If you have such information — a pre-20th century usage — please supply it, we need it. — Walloon 03:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Lanterns were common in Ireland, so I suppose they didn't have to write about them, no more than a modern person would be writing an essay about the watch on their wrist. Samhain (the ancient Irish festival), in Ireland and Scotland is the festival of fire, hope that helps a bit. 86.42.146.214 04:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
We're not looking for an "essay", we are looking for ANY record of such a usage. We have found such usage in Canada and the United States in the 19th century, we have not found any record of usage in Ireland, Scotland or England before the 20th century. An encyclopedia cannot say that the tradition associating carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween came from Ireland (or Scotland or England) without any documentation that it, in fact, did. (And the analogy is bad; no one would have any trouble finding references to wristwatches in modern times. There are thousands of such references available.) Remember, what we are looking for is any record that any of those groups associated carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween before the 20th century. We DO have records of how Halloween was celebrated in Ireland and Scotland in the 19th century; for example Robert Burns' poem "Hallowe'en". But none of these 19th century accounts mention carved vegetable lanterns. — Walloon 04:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
See here[2], Quote With the bonfire ablaze, the villagers extinguished all other fires. Each family then solemnly lit its hearth from the common flame, thus bonding the families of the village together. Unquote. It's there in the history. How do you think that folks could light their home fire from a Samhain fire. A lantern would have been needed. 86.42.146.214 13:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
That's not a pre-20th century source, is it? It's Wikipedia. And it mentions nothing about carved vegetable lanterns. (There are other types of lanterns, not to mention torches.) Find a pre-20th century source , not a modern source, that associates carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween. — Walloon 13:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Try the Isle of Man. It's a bigger part of their Halloween there than it is anywhere else195.153.45.54 11:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just seen a page here[3] which quotes Encarta as saying "The jack-o’-lantern, originally carved from a large turnip rather than a pumpkin, originated in medieval Scotland". I can't check Encarta - I'm not a member 195.153.45.54 11:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)