Talk:Halloween/Archive 6

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Contents 1 not a costume party 2 Halloween in various nations 3 Opening Paragraph 4 Samhain in celtic Iberia 5 External links 6 a typo "cahtolic" 7 the begininng of halloween 8 Unicef orange collection boxes anywhere in 2006? 9 Mischief Night 10 Halloween in the Philippines?

[edit] not a costume party

people who dress up as something other than something scary are missing the point of this holiday. halloween is not a costume ball, it is supposed to be scary. people who dressup as cops and construction workers look stupid. go join the village people. — Keltik31 08:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for these "rules" of which you post? Are these actual laws enacted by some government authority, or are these merely your own small-minded opinions? Do you have any other "rules" those of us not graced with your obviously wide experience should be living by? Do enlighten us, oh teacher. Weirdoactor 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

i think the tone of your response speaks for itself and i need to say no more Keltik31 21:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)keltik31Keltik31 21:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

As does your tone. Frankly, as long as you keep using that tone, I would take your saying no more as a blessing. Happy Halloween. Justin Eiler 21:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the "Keltik31"'s tone definitely speaks for itself. The editor in question makes a bald assertion of some sort of universal law of human behavior, and when called to back up extremist and dogmatic claims with a bit of reality, refuses to do so.Dogface 15:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

i have always understood that halloween was a night when all the demonds came out. so you had to dress as one of them in order to blend in and survive. dressing like a cop or a princess is not going to help you blend in. Keltik31 13:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Please cite your sources to back up your claims. You are presenting nothing more than mere personal opinion as if it were some sort of universal law of social necessity. Back up your claims. Dogface 15:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. Very shallow and padantic.

Please have the courage and basic decency to sign your statements.Dogface 15:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

for god's sake people, get a life. dont take what i say so personally. you'd think i was talking about making abortion illegal. Keltik31 21:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Keltic31, this is a serious project--not just this article, but all of Wikipedia. Justin Eiler 21:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

gee, thanks for the clarification justin. liberals beleive in a person's right to an opinion, as long as it is theirs. Keltik31 21:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

First and foremost, I am not a liberal. However, my political slant is not relevant to the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is "opinion"--everyone has one. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for opinion. If you want a vehicle to express your opinions, I invite you to start a blog where you may express your opinions to your heart's content. WP:NOT states "Wikipedia is free and open, but restricts both freedom and openness where they interfere with creating an encyclopedia. Accordingly, Wikipedia is not a forum for unregulated free speech. The fact that Wikipedia is an open, self-governing project does not mean that any part of its purpose is to explore the viability of anarchic communities. Our purpose is to build an encyclopedia, not to test the limits of anarchism."

Our purpose here is to create an encyclopedia. If you do not share this purpose, then perhaps Wikipedia is not the best outlet for your efforts. Justin Eiler 21:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

this is a discussion page. i am discussing the article and giving my opinion. if you dont agree with my views, that is your problem, not mine. halloween is not a costume party. if you cant prove me wrong, that is your shortcoming, not mine. Keltik31 22:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

to clarify this argument, keltik31 is right in a way, there are rules of common sense to govern what you dress up as, the origional idea is to scare away malign or 'evil' spirits and energies, so no dressing up as a construction worker e.t.c. would not make sense, but really if you dont intend to stick to a tradition you dnt belive in then fair enough, dress how you want, but keltik31 stil has a point —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.187.123 (talk • contribs)

Keltik is right and the responses that attack him are aimed at the weaknesses in how the point was made, rather than at what his position would fully entail. You need to give someone the benifit of the doubt when reading something they write because there is nearly always a way to interpret it that makes the point seem inherantly weak. The point that "halloween is meant to be about the world of death becomming manifest - therefore your costume should be scary" is a valid point, and to say it's wrong because it is dependant on the idea of some "meta-law" or something is to attack a very weak version of the arguement! What he said entails that sort of thing no more than any faliure to understand requires a law being broken! In my view, quite how a Spiderman costume relates to a blurring between the worlds of the living and dead is beyond me. There is no harm in having some fun, but it does display a misunderstanding/ignoring of the roots of the holiday Korona82.19.53.110 06:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

but it does display a misunderstanding/ignoring of the roots of the holiday

This is a generalized claim that could be made for a number of other holidays. Please see also: Valentine's Day, April Fool's Day, Easter, Thanksgiving, Solstice, Christmas, and Hanukkah, and any number of other holidays that are celebrated with "a misunderstanding/ignoring of the roots of the holiday". Howza 'bout you celebrate Halloween *your* way, and "allow" others to celebrate in THEIR way. Free country, and all that... -- Weirdoactor 14:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

finally, some words of common sense, except for the wierdo guy. nobody is talking about passing laws against dressing as a hooker or a janitor. but do you go on easter egg hunts on veteran's day? Keltik31 14:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Keltik31:

- Seeing as you've been warned on multiple occasions about personal attacks (and specifically against attacking me); I suggest you find a new way of expressing your displeasure with my comments that doesn't involve insulting me.

- The word is spelled "weirdo"; as you can see...the spelling is right there on my tag. Heh.

- Please clarify who might be talking about "laws". I'm not. Are you? I'm talking about whether people "miss the point" of the holiday, as is your assertion. Obviously, I don't agree with that minority opinion, and believe that if you want to dress up like a hooker, a janitor, or whatever, have at it, and have fun! Dressing up as a "scary" character might have been "the point" of Samhain at one point in history, just as Valentine's Day used to commemorate the martyrdom of Valentine of Rome, but now is a "Hallmark holiday" wherein we give chocolates, candies, cards and presents to our beloved. Does that mean that people who don't rend their clothing and weep because St. Valentine was beheaded are "missing the point"? No. Holidays evolve, usually because of commercialization, exploitation, or absorption by other holidays or religions.

- Re: your comment about "easter egg hunts on veteran's day"; are you suggesting that veterans DON'T deserve a fertility rite, but Jesus DOES? Don't you support the troops, Keltik31? -- Weirdoactor 16:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

weirdoactor, please put the crack pipe down. veterans dont deserve a fertility rite? what in the world are you talking about? dont i support the troops? i am one of them. are your questions serious? Keltik31 17:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Keltik31:

- Accusing me of smoking crack qualifies as a personal attack. Seriously; stop. The admins are probably sick of reading reports about you; but I'll keep submitting them so long as you keep attacking people.

- You asked "do you go on easter egg hunts on veteran's day?". Easter egg hunts are based upon ancient fertility rites (to ask the gods/Earth/Mother Nature for a bountiful spring harvest and for healthy children) that Christianity absorbed into Easter. Thus my question.

- Are you currently serving in the military? If so, what branch of the service? If you are currently serving, you may not be aware that many of your posts are (in addition to being violations of Wikipedia policy) blatant violations of your enlistment agreement, and should be brought to the attention of your commanding officer.

- At the top of the thread you wrote "i think the tone of your response speaks for itself and i need to say no more", yet you continue to "say more". Interesting. -- Weirdoactor 17:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

being a member of a racist group is a violation. giving my opinion is not. are you an attorney? dont try to spook me you dick!Keltik31 19:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Addhoc 19:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not an attorney; although I'm not sure how that might affect my knowledge of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (you might take a close look at Articles 109 and 134). And I'm not trying to "spook" you. I'm trying to help you to become a more productive member of the Wikipedia community, and to avoid possible criminal and civil litigation. There's no need to insult me because we don't agree with each other's point of view. I apologize if I have in any way provoked you. I would like you to act in a more civil manner towards me, but I can't make you do so, I can only report breaches of Wikipedia policy to the appropriate authority, be it here on Wikipedia, or a civilian or a military authority, if such actions are severe enough to warrant such a report. -- Weirdoactor 19:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

alright fine. apology accepted. i gotta work on my style and communication skills. please accept my apology as well? Keltik31 19:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Apology accepted. Thank you. -- Weirdoactor 19:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Keltic's point is valid, but requires a qualifier, Halloween is about getting scared by ghosts and demons, for some people, in some cultures, in some religious systems. Not all. The solstices and equinoxes are signifcant dates/holidays pan-culturally because they link the given culture to the cycle of the seasons. Many of these cultures identify the fall equinox as an in-between time, as fall is between summer and winter, the equinox represents the tween of life and death. Not all views involve fear, some invoke respect, awe, or reverence. Phyesalis 06:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Keltic's point of view may be valid. It doesn't make it the only one. Personally I disagree with him for historical reasons and beleive that he should have googled "guising" and clicked "I feel lucky". He would then have found that "Guising" doesn't mean "dressing in a scary manner" -it originally meant disguising yourself as one of the spirits of the dead. Who is to say that there are no dead construction workers, ballerinas, red indians, policemen etc? It'd be a strange world if there weren't! 195.153.45.54 09:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Halloween in various nations

Just a note since you're listing traditions in particular US cities: In St. Louis, MO children are often required to tell a joke or sing a song to receive candy. I have so far not found this in any other cities. Lowiepunk 19:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)lowiepunk

That is actually very reminiscent of some of the Irish and Scottish guisers' customs associated with Samhain. See this section of the article: --Kathryn NicDhàna 22:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Paragraph

I don't want to adjust an entry that has a problem with vandalism, so I am just bringing this to the attention of whoever owns the article.

The opening paragraph doesn't make any sense.

"Halloween originated among the Celts in Ireland, Britain and France as the Pagan Celtic harvest festival, Samhain. Irish, Scots, Calan Gaeaf in Welsh and other immigrants brought versions of the traditions to North America in the 19th century. Most other Western countries have embraced Halloween as a part of American pop culture in the late 20th century."

This should be adjusted to:

"Halloween originated among the Celts in Ireland , Britain and France as the Pagan Celtic harvest festival, Samhain (Calan Gaeaf in Welsh). The Irish, Scots, Welsh and other immigrants brought versions of their traditions to North America during the 19th century."

Further, this sentence is ambiguous, "Most other Western countries have embraced Halloween as a part of American pop culture in the late 20th century."

I can't decide if the author wants to convey that "other Western countries" recognize that Halloween is a part of American pop culture OR if they adopted Halloween because they wanted to emulate American pop culture. I suggest:

"By the second half of the 20th century, celebrating Halloween by children dressing in costume and going door-to-door asking for treats had become an American pop culture phenomenon. By the end of the century most Western countries had adopted customs similar to those in the United States despite the day's European roots." Mensch 00:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

"...celebrating Halloween by children dressing in costume and going door-to-door asking for treats had become an American pop culture phenomenon. By the end of the century most Western countries had adopted customs similar to those in the United States despite the day's European roots" Really? What about those countries where dressing up and going door to door was already a custom?

I suggest ""...celebrating Halloween by children dressing in costume and going door-to-door asking for treats had become an American pop culture phenomenon. By the end of the 20th century many Western countries had adopted customs similar to those in the United States. Countries with an existing Halloween tradition have merged this into their existing customs to varying degrees." 195.153.45.54 10:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Samhain in celtic Iberia

I've read all of this and have to make a new coment.

I am from Galicia, at the north-west of the Iberian Peninsula, a place closely linked to the history of Ireland at one of the migrations of people to the island (recently confirmed by an investigation based on the DNA) centurys ago. So it's a place that shares some legends, traditions and popular music with the celtic world.

My father told me that when he was a child, the day of the dead (2nd november, a day after all saint's day) they used to empty pumpkins and fill them with burning ashes, leaving them outside home to be protected against de dead. So he told that his mother also remembered that celebration in 1920, and so her parents. So it's an ancient tradition.

That time, in a rural place and under the global ignorance produced by the spanish dictatorship, absolutely nobody in my little galician country could know anything about something called "Halloween" or similar. I remember begin hearing that term here by first 80's. It could not be a celebration imported from Britain or elsewhere. It was an ancient tradition known as the "Samain" (Samhain, as I've read here) that can only share its origins with the celt culture itself.

This celebration also has a related drink: A Queimada.

So I do PLEASE ASK TO INCLUDE Galicia as one of the places in wich this tradition continues, although many young people here doesn't know it's original name (Samaín) and calls it Halloween, and even believes that this tradition comes from the U.S.A!!!!

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[edit] External links

I came across this Halloween search engine - what does everybody think of it? --Kartoony 10:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I just tried your link and it failed. I also couldn't ping halloween.search2.be - DNS failure.195.153.45.54 10:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a typo "cahtolic"

The sentence "Most Catholic parishes see no harm, and Cahtolic parochial schools in America typically have "

should be spelled Catholic

A.Freiberg@cenit.de 19:04 29.10.2006

84.160.242.87 18:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the begininng of halloween

when did halloween begin? — Pogo935 12:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Samhain festivities already existed when the Romans occupied Celtic Britain in the first century B.C. Earlier than that, it is hard to say, as Britain had no written records before the Romans, at least none that have survived. Roman writers described the practices of the Druid priests, but the first written accounts specifically about Samhain were not written until centuries later, in the 700s A.D., after the Christianization of Ireland and Britain. — Walloon 19:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

would be worth while tracing celtic history back, this is their end of year celebration as recorded in the gregorian calender, so presumably it dates back to the first time the celts or their ancestors marked the passage of a year, i.e. very old — 89.241.187.123 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Samhain was not the marking of the new year (that was a mistaken belief of 19th century scholars), so no it cannot be presumed that Samhain goes back to however far back the Celts marked the passing of years. There is a whole section to this Wikipedia article on how that is a mistaken belief. — Walloon 15:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unicef orange collection boxes anywhere in 2006?

Here in Canada UNICEF has discontinued the orange collection boxes. I can't really tell from their web site, or from the news article I referenced, whether this is just in Canada, or if it is more widespread. Have they cancelled it where you live (other than in Canada)? I wrote "In 2006 UNICEF discontinued their Halloween collection boxes in parts of the world" for now. Basho 03:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Basho. The US national commitee seems to still be running the orange collection boxes, per the US web page. HTH Justin Eiler 04:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard on the news a few months ago that they were cancelling the program, though I'm not sure if it's starting this year or next. — 58.89.4.79 23:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mischief Night

Within the 'England' section there is a mention of 'Mischief Night' celebrated on 4th November. The author states that it is a Yorkshire tradition. However, it is also a tradition in the Northwest of England. Furthermore, it is believed that it originated from Catholic homage to the 5th November plot (ie: The mischief of the Gunpowder plot) and has nothing to do with Hallowe'en. I would be very grateful to anyone who can shed any light on this issue. — Smicer7 19:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Over in the U.S mischief night is actually thought of as the day before halloween, and that's when the pranks take place here. Generally the cops are out in good force because it can get pretty nasty sometimes. Henry Corvel 02:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Henry_Corvel

Where in the US? Just curious; I've lived in the South, the Northwest and the Midwest, and I've never heard of it in the US before now. -- Weirdoactor 03:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halloween in the Philippines?

I don't think the Philippines warrants a mention as an example of countries where Halloween is becoming popular. There are many other countries where this tradition is gaining popularity. — 58.89.4.79 23:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)