Talk:Hall of the Mountain King

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents

[edit] Chopped liver?

Is Edvard Grieg chopped liver!?!?!? A disambiguation page is sorely required... never done one, must study Tim Bray 07:51, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move May 2007

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hall of the Mountain King (album) → Hall of the Mountain King — hatnote takes care of the people who meant to go to In the Hall of the Mountain King —JHunterJ 12:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Support as nominator
  • Oppose. Classical music still exists, and to people who like classical music the Peer Gynt piece is at least as important as the pop music album. Anthony Appleyard 05:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Hall of the Mountain King (album) to Hall of the Mountain King as the result of a move request. There is no other article titled "Hall of the Mountain King", and a hatlink will direct people to In the Hall of the Mountain King without any problems. --Stemonitis 06:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


I hate to open a can of worms again, but...

It was a mistake to move this article back Hall of the Mountain King (album). The Edvard Grieg piece is by far the most widely recognized use of the name "Hall of the Mountain King." If you were to ask a hundred passersby what "The Hall of the Mountain King" means, almost everyone who could answer that question would name the Grieg music. Even those (like me) who did not know the name of the composer would at least know that it is a piece of classical music.

I do not mean any disrespect to fans of the Savatage album, but I think this is the wrong approach for Wikipedia. The article titled "Hall of the Mountain King" should direct users to the article that most of them are likely to be looking for. The smaller number of readers who are looking for this album will be able to follow a disambiguation link back here. Tim Pierce 20:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tim Pierce. Reginmund 06:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
So do I. Andrewa 11:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I have always heard the Grieg piece referred to as "In the Hall of the Mountain King". It has nothing to do with respect for Savatage or Grieg, but rather primary topicality. Is there a cite for "by far the most widely recognized use of Hall of the Mountain King"? If not, the hatnote still works to direct people who have mistakenly searched for the incorrect abbreviated title. -- JHunterJ 03:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I did not know until this week that the full title of the Grieg piece was anything more than "Hall of the Mountain King," and can't recall ever hearing it referred to otherwise. (Granted that I am not a scholar of classical music. :-)
I realize that it is a bit unorthodox to suggest that X be made a redirect to Y, when there is another subject whose proper exact title is X. To my mind it is a bit like making "The Night Before Christmas" a link to the 2006 movie by that name, rather than a redirect to A Visit from St. Nicholas, which is the proper title of that poem. It is near-certain that most users searching for "The Night Before Christmas" are looking for Clement Clarke Moore's poem and not one of the movies by that title. I think Wikipedia currently does the right thing with "The Night Before Christmas," and think the same rule should apply here. Tim Pierce 03:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
And if it were near-certain, I'd agree. So we're back to, anecdotes aside, is there any indication that the primary topic for "Hall of the Mountain King" is the Grieg piece? -- JHunterJ 11:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think that the burden of proof should be the other way around, given the lower name recognition for Savatage in the first place. However, a Google search for "hall of the mountain king" grieg [1] presently yields 74,900 hits to Savatage's 39,300 [2]. Are there any significant references to the phrase "Hall of the Mountain King" that are not directly inspired by the Edvard Grieg music? Tim Pierce 12:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Why do you think the burden of proof for the shortened title (Grieg) vs. the full title (Savatage) is that way? Anyway, the Google search
"hall of the mountain king" -"in the hall of the mountain king" savatage
outstrips
"hall of the mountain king" -"in the hall of the mountain king" grieg
by 38K to 13K. The -"in the hall of the mountain king" removes results that include the full phrase. -- JHunterJ 01:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Using JHunterJ's search strings, it does indeed seem that when "Hall of the Mountain King" is used alone (not preceded by "In The"), it more commonly refers to the Savatage album. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. --Stemonitis 10:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig page?

Here's an alternative suggestion: what about making Hall of the Mountain King a disambiguation page, pointing to (let's say) In the Hall of the Mountain King and Hall of the Mountain King (album)? Tim Pierce 15:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The restoration from (album) back to the basename was already handled above in "Requested move May 2007". A disambiguation page would serve exactly the purpose of the current hatnote, with the added drawback that no reader would reach the intended page without an addition click. As before, since the two works have different titles, each can have the article at their respective base names, since those are the primary uses, and the people reaching the wrong page because of an informal or abbreviated title can easily click through the hatnote to reach the article desired. Since there are two similar titles, you could make a case for Hall of the Mountain King (disambiguation) (as opposed to either base name), but how would the reader reach it? -- JHunterJ 02:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
A disambiguation page would also have the advantage of not appearing to favor one reference over the other. Speaking only for myself, I was startled and kind of shocked when I searched Wikipedia last week for "Hall of the Mountain King" and found myself on what seemed to be a very wrong entry. Finding a hatnote at the top of the page allowed me to find the article I was looking for, but did not much help my sense that Wikipedia's has prioritized the wrong subject. Given the amount of confusion over this particular issue, I think that a disambiguation page would be the most neutral solution. Tim Pierce 11:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Except that it's solving a non-problem. Wikipedia doesn't prioritize on the basis of importance, it (neutrally) prioritizes on primary usage, and the discussions above have illustrated the primary topic in this case. So "In the Hall of the Mountain King" can be found at In the Hall of the Mountain King and Hall of the Mountain King at Hall of the Mountain King. The confusion over this issue ends at those two points, which isn't much confusion at all. Similarly, Andy Griffiths is not a disambiguation page, even though some people might think that's the name of the more important Andy Griffith. -- JHunterJ 02:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)