Talk:Halifax, Nova Scotia/Archive3

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Request for Comment: city of Halifax

This is a dispute about whether it is accurate to continue to refer to the area of or approximately coinciding with the boundaries of the City of Halifax, which became a part of the rural/urban Halifax Regional Municipality in 1996, as a city. 22:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC) For more info read Wikipedia:Request_for_comments

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
  • We all agree that this is no longer a City, but to use former City's boundaries when describing the current urban area as a "city" (note the lower case) is at best arbitrary and at worst a fabrication. The city is now a continuous area that wraps the harbour, from Portuguese Cove (outside of the city of Halifax to the west and south) to Cole Harbour (outside of the former City of Dartmouth to the east). People now refer to the entire urban area of Halifax Regional Municipality as 'the city' and 'Halifax'. -- WayeMason 22:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Comments
  • Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as 'city status' in Nova Scotia. The Nova Scotian equivalent at this point is a Regional Municipality. Keeping in mind, however, that not all regional municipalities in the province are considered cities. The reason the HRM and the Sydney area (CBRM) were incorporated into Regional Municipalities is because it simply did not make sense to have separate towns in the counties because they were large enough to be called cities, but there was no such thing as city status in Nova Scotia. Thomasiscool 00:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • There's no consensus in how Nova Scotians use the term "the city", but no-one I know would call a trip to Portuguese Cove "going to the city". This is (ostensibly) an encyclopedia and we're allowed to be pedantic, but I don't understand opposition to the idea that the Municipality includes a number of communities both rural and urban, and that the community or group of communities that form the downtown core is/are "a city". Let the article reflect that there's dissension on the street as to what is or is not "Halifax" and what is or is not "the city", and let's move on with this.
    --RobHutten 02:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Of course the article on "Halifax, Nova Scotia" should be on the whole city, whatever its extents rightly may be. This whole dispute, at least as between WayeMason and myself, might be a mere misunderstanding. I'm not much concerned with exactly how much of the built-up area is covered by this article. It is important that the extent of Halifax be based upon reliable secondary sources, not on the personal observations or opinions of editors ("original research"). I've not been saying, though, that the city of Halifax, Nova Scotia, is necessarily bound by the former limits of the dissolved City of Halifax. I am concerned that it not be said or implied, in the WP article, that there is no longer a city -- Halifax -- and I am concerned that "Halifax, Nova Scotia" not be equated with HRM, whereas Halifax is a city while HRM is a region (perhaps more exactly, a government of a region, that region being the none other than the County of Halifax).

    This problem seems to have begun with the edit that "moved Halifax, Nova Scotia to Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city)". Those are not identical subjects, and while the City of Halifax is no more, and last had the definite boundaries which it had upon its dissolution, Halifax, the now-unincorporated city, goes on, and has the current extent that reliable sources ascribe to it. It would be fine to have a separate article, on the City of Halifax (entitled "City of Halifax", or if disambiguation is needed perhaps "City of Halifax (Nova Scotia)") and of course such an article would note that it was dissolved in 1996, and so exists only historically -- that is, the legal entity is history, not the city itself.

    As to the current extent of Halifax, the map in the article on Halifax in The Canadian Encyclopedia shows it as including Dartmouth: "Halifax" is in larger font, embracing smaller-font "Halifax" and "Dartmouth", across the inlet from one another. The text of the article likewise seems to cover Dartmouth as being part of Halifax. Not so for Bedford, in either text or map. Current mapping likewise seems to show that Bedford is as yet not continuous with Halifax, or at least that development thins out before before getting denser again, as one goes from Halifax to Bedford (or Bedford to Halifax). On the opposite shore, Bedford and Dartmouth are separated by DND lands. Against the article in The Canadian Encyclopedia, the online Nova Scotia Geographical Names shows a Dartmouth and Halifax as two separate cities (lowercase "c"), without an overarching "Halifax", and HRM makes them each its own "Metropolitan Area" (and each somewhat bigger than were the former City of Dartmouth and City of Halifax, respectively). From this it would seem that Bedford ought not be covered by this article, but that whether or not Dartmouth ought be included is moot.

    I regret the rancour that this issue seems to have generated, and assure all that there has been none on my part. -- Lonewolf BC 02:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Peace Halifax is not a city its just a place name with no legal status but still within the same limits when it was incorporated before April 1,1996. According to the Nova Scotia and Municipal Relatations there is no place in Nova Scotia listed as a city . All the former cities are either part of HRM or CBRM . Now as for it been the capital a definetly no. The Halifax Regional Municipality is as it states here and here. Now the urban core is what HRM defines for creating bylaws that affect either the rural or urban areas ex. winter parking ban . Its commbine the communities or palcenames into two or three areas to simplify thats so they would not have name 150 so names when comes to draft rules for planning. Its nothing to what a dictionary says but what the province and HRM has to say . This what I go by--Sonyuser 02:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • In Australia, we have separate articles for cities/towns and for local government areas. A similar situation to what Halifax is in appears to be Mildura, Victoria and Rural City of Mildura, which is a local government area (the third level of government, below a state). The Rural City was created by merging a number of smaller LGAs (including the City of Mildura) and very clearly includes a number of towns and localities that are not part of "Mildura". When I visited "Halifax" a few years ago, I didn't even think about local government, but I thought of "Halifax" as the built-up area. I recognised that Dartmouth was "different", but didn't really think about whether it was or was not "part of Halifax" on the other side of the harbour, or a separate town. I don't know if this helps, but I would definitely expect to find an article at Halifax, Nova Scotia that describes roughly the built-up/metropolitan/urban area, its history and culture, separate from an article about the governance, either pre- or post-merger. Most of the capital cities of our states are the other way around. For example, Adelaide, South Australia contains 18 LGAs, most of which are called "City of ...". One is the City of Adelaide. --Scott Davis Talk 12:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • That's a most sensible approach, at least where there is not a good match between governmental boundaries and physical facts on the ground, as with Halifax. Unincorporated towns and villages are commonplace, and I am sure great numbers of them have WP articles about them without anyone insisting that "____ is not a town" on the basis that it lacks its own "Town of ____" municipal government. Unincorporated cities are much rarer, I suspect, but it is beyond me why they should not be treated likewise, without fuss.
    -- Lonewolf BC 15:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Here's another way of looking at it. Yes, the HRM includes all of Halifax County, but take another example. The Cape Breton Regional Municipality has been incorporated in the same way, but there are still separate communities (see Cape Breton Regional Municipality for more info). So, supposing we deleted the communities' respective pages and merged them all into the CBRM article. That would be exactly like what is proposed for this article. Thomasiscool 22:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • That is the exact problem we are facing here. I don't think the "city" ends at the old "City of Halifax" (1841-1996) boundaries - it is the urban area surrounding Halifax Harbour. The Government of Nova Scotia (Nova Scotia Geomatics Centre and the Nova Scotia Geographical Names Board) has designated the former "City of Halifax" as an "metropolitan area" (their definition) to at least recognize the history of this former incorporated municipality. The argument being made for an article on the "City of Halifax" is that the "City of Halifax (1841-1996) is not the same as the "city of Halifax" (2007). I believe that the entity that existed for over 150 years should receive the "Halifax, Nova Scotia" article, since it is legally recognized as a community and metropolitan area by the provincial government. Statistics Canada does not break down its population statistics for HRM to distinguish between the urban area surrounding Halifax Harbour (the "city" in this case) and the rural area (east, west and north of the urban area), so I think until that is available, we should maintain the status quo. To make the "Halifax, Nova Scotia" article ignore this original community and start to blend modern-day HRM-related statistics and other information will create an even more confusing situation than exists at present. I respect the philosphical position that a "city" exists around Halifax Harbour in 2007 (it definitely does), but exactly what an article on it should be called is still up for debate, however I really don't think that the "Halifax, Nova Scotia" article is the best place for it, given the provincial government's designation for this community.Plasma east 11:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with:
--Scott Davis Talk 15:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
might i suggest:
  • Halifax, Nova Scotia - redirects to Halifax Regional Municipality (or alternately, HRM could redirect to Halifax, NS, I just don't think it matters anymore)
  • City of Halifax - a political/government entity that existed between 1841 and 1996, which would probably be a renamed History of Halifax article with the current Halifax, Nova Scotia grafted on top.
  • Halifax Peninsula for the old city of Halifax until 1969, and the current planning area and community council
  • Mainland Halifax for the part of the city annexed in 1969 and turned into its own planning area and community council in 1996.
  • Halifax Regional Municipality - a political/government entity that came into existence in 1996, with a NEW SECTION with a map showing the Urban core and suburban area and describing the difference between Halifax, the city, and Halifax, Sheet Harbour style.
  • Halifax County, Nova Scotia - another former political/government entity that still has legal usage as counties matter in Nova Scotia legislation (married in the municpality of Halifax, in the county of Halifax, for example)
  • Halifax Harbour - a sheltered body of water
  • Halifax - a disambiguation page covering these and many others
WayeMason 20:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the sensible thing to do is to have the following articles:

  • Halifax, Nova Scotia. This would include Halifax, Clayton Park, Fairview, Spryfield, Herring Cove, Princes Lodge, etc.
  • Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. This would include Dartmouth, Shearwater, Westphal, Woodside, Shannon Park, and possibly as far out as Eastern Passage, etc.
  • Bedford, Nova Scotia. This would include Bedford, Fernleigh, Killarney, etc.
  • Keep all the existing articles that are deemed necessary about smaller communities such as Lower Sackville, Sheet Harbour, Hacketts Cove, etc.
  • We incorporate everything not deemed worthy of its own article into an article about a larger community, or into the existing HRM article, which we would keep, and
  • Keep all the articles listed by WayeMason about things other than communities, incorporating those deemed unnecessary into larger articles. Thomasiscool 00:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Urban, Suburban, Rural divisions of HRM as per HRM Planning Department http://www.halifax.ca/regionalplanning/Images/HRMmaplg.jpg
Urban, Suburban, Rural divisions of HRM as per HRM Planning Department http://www.halifax.ca/regionalplanning/Images/HRMmaplg.jpg

This graphic illustrates why I think keeping the Halifax article is incorrect if it is kept for anything but historical reasons. Old City of Halifax doesn't exist legally, practically, and if anything, exists only in the hearts a shrinking number of people. The city inside of the HRM would be either the urban suburban area, or the urban/suburban/rural commutershed. For those of you outside of HRM, let me tell you, its a 20 minute drive from Exit Five on the 103 to the heart of the city. I think that it is appropriate to merge the articles on HRM and Halifax, and make the changes, because as long as we have the living HRM and the archival city being confused, we are going to revisit this discussion ad nausium because it is confusing and misleading. We will of course keep the Dartmouth and Bedford articles because both these historic areas continue as planning areas, so those articles easily fit both needs, the same way the Brooklyn article discusses the former city of Brooklyn and the current Borough of Brooklyn in one single article. Again, I stand by my proposal, it best represents the facts. WayeMason 01:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised that there are people who think "Halifax, Nova Scotia" means HRM. "Halifax, Nova Scotia" should cover the area where people would come from who would introduce themselves as "I live in Halifax" when they are meeting someone from a different continent. Wikipedia is a global resource. Would a resident of Peggy's Cove tell me they come from Halifax, or from "Peggy's Cove, a small town southwest of Halifax"? What about people from Sheet Harbour? Do they identify themselves as Haligonians to the world? To people from Truro or New Glasgow? Do they "go downtown" or go "to Halifax"? I'd be upset if I thought I was booking a room in Halifax and ended up in Sheet Harbour, or vice versa. The concept of Halifax, Nova Scotia does not need to have a defined line on the ground, but it is the main article for the city, which is different to its regional government, or the area governed by that government. --Scott Davis Talk 01:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me for posting again, it was just pointed out to me to stick to the point. I don't care enough about the rest of this to deal with the whole issue at this time, my goal of the RFC is: can we agree that Halifax, Nova Scotia is community and historical fact rather than referring to it as the city of Halifax? WayeMason 01:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Surely the metropolitan area of HRM meets the basic dictionary definition of a city. Whether that is reflected in the formal, legal name of the incorporated entity is beside the point in the context of general discussion. However, the WP article should use the formal terms as defined by the province. In other words, yes, Halifax is a city; it's just not formally called "The City Of Halifax." Let the articles reflect that.
--RobHutten 19:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The HRM provincial and federal governments all defines Halifax, Nova Scotia as the community where the city used to exist . They also define the Halifax Regional Municipality as the combine areas where Dartmouth, Halifax , Bedford and the former county of Halifax used to exist . However the communities such as Halifax , Dartmouth,Bedford, Peggys Cove and the 200 other places in HRM still exist as geograplical places . Furthermore Canada Post does not identify the "Halifax Regional Municipality" as a "postal address" nor will they deliever such unless the proper community (placename) is put on the address . It would have been a nightmare if impossible both to Canada Post and HRM have the address to be "Halifax Nova Scotia" in the whole HRM area as well . So what is the fuss where or what Halifax Nova Scotia is and what the Halifax Regional Municiplaity is when it all spelled out on the Nova Scotia , HRM and Government of Canada websites. I really like to know it has to different in the wikipedia articles ? Halifax, Nova Scotia and the Halifax Regional Municipality are both not cities .--Sonyuser 19:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
ScottDavis is quite right, and puts it well. "Halifax, Nova Scotia" is the city. "Halifax Regional Municipality" is the municipal government of the region within which that city stands, including much else that is not that city. The City of Halifax was formerly the municipal government of that city. These are three different subjects. There was a time when Halifax, Nova Scotia was essentially coextensive with the bounds of the City of Halifax, although the material city and municipal government were conceptually different things, nevertheless. Halifax, Nova Scotia and Halifax Regional Municipality, though, are not the same even in so far as that, so re-directing one to the other is just not on. -- Lonewolf BC 20:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there must always be a critical distinction between different communities, even in a situation like the HRM. At this point, it seems that the HRM article is essentially the article for Halifax County, even though it explains the difference between it and other counties. We can, therefore, sensibly keep the articles about other communities in HRM. Thomasiscool 20:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Finally, agreement. This is what I have been saying all along. The city in HRM, of which Halifax is the centre, is not physically the same as the same as the City of Halifax. Thank you for that. Right now, the Halifax, Nova Scotia article as written has a map of the old City of Halifax, and has the history of the old City of Halifax, and talks about the neighbourhoods just in the old city of Halifax. The article would need to be completely re-written to be remotely factual about the "city" in the centre of the region. We need a History of Halifax article, which I suggest we rename to be the History of the City of Halifax. Put all the historic stuff there (which I have mostly done.) Now that leaves us with the issue of what goes on the urban page, and what goes on the HRM page.
Before we get into that issue, what is a city, what is urban, which goes on what page, can we just agree that as written right now the Halifax, Nova Scotia page does not meet even the most basic criteria of being an objective, NPOV article about the urban/suburban core of HRM????WayeMason 22:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Also it would be incorrect to put the census date for the dissolved City of Halifax down as the population of the city or urban part of HRM, n'est pas? WayeMason 22:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has been saying that the city of Halifax and is the same thing as the City of Halifax. Certainly I have been at pains to make that distinction. On the other hand, either "the city in HRM" is Halifax, (including Dartmouth), or else there is more than one city in HRM. In the former case, the respective "metropolitan areas" of Halifax and Dartmouth might conveniently be taken together as being "Halifax". This is essentially the view taken by McCann in The Canadian Encyclopedia. In the latter case, the "metropolitan area" of Halifax, alone, makes the sensible choice. (Note that this is not the same as the 1996 limits of the City of Halifax. It is roughly similar, just as one would expect, but a bit bigger, reflecting the physical expansion of Halifax between then and now, I assume.) This is the view implied by the provincial website on placenames, as I have said before. It is all one to me which view the WP article takes -- or it could consider both views.
The mismatch between the content of the article and the title of the article should be solved by amending the content. The mismatch was brought about by deliberately stripping material from this article and turning it into an article on the pre-1996 municipality. That can be undone. -- Lonewolf BC 23:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

With regard to census data, the right data for a given census is the data for the extent of Halifax at that time -- or the closest thing to, if the data was not prepared in exactly that way. -- Lonewolf BC 23:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me like the main thing that needs to be done is rewrite parts of the HRM article to make it clear that it is not 'Halifax', but rather the county surrounding Halifax. Thomasiscool 23:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The way forward is for you, Lonewolf, to start talking about concrete edits, amendments, and changes to the text of the article and see if we can come up with any kind of consensus. I have made several, the ball is now in your court. WayeMason 00:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Ahem: [1]. -- Lonewolf BC 03:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I believe it would be inappropriate to refer to it as a either a City or a city in an encyclopedia article. I believe that it should reflect whatever the current law and government say. There should be no mention of Halifax (either the former city or the municipality) as a city, but only as a former city now. That being said, I personally refer to it as the City of Halifax, but then again I also refer to Dartmouth as the City of Dartmouth. I've never been a huge fan of amalgamation, but I believe in an encyclopedic entry it's important to keep my personal views to myself, and use the official terminology. However, Halifax (former city) is too cumbersome and simply looks stupid. I would recommend keeping the article named as is, but remove those references to Halifax being either a city or City. If you absolutely want to rename the article, what about something like Greater Halifax, Nova Scotia or Metropolitan Halifax, Nova Scotia or even Urban Halifax, Nova Scotia. --hfx_chris 11:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I have was sick last weekend and work is killing me. Lets try and work together to come to consensus and put this turkey to bed.

I don't think anyone has been saying that the city of Halifax and is the same thing as the City of Halifax.

Then the first sentence needs to make that clear. The map has to go it is totally misleading. The population has to go. It could read The Halifax urban area is the largest metropolitain area in Atlantic Canada, and is home the the Capital District of the province of Nova Scotia.

On the other hand, either "the city in HRM" is Halifax, (including Dartmouth), or else there is more than one city in HRM. In the former case, the respective "metropolitan areas" of Halifax and Dartmouth might conveniently be taken together as being "Halifax". This is essentially the view taken by McCann in The Canadian Encyclopedia. In the latter case, the "metropolitan area" of Halifax, alone, makes the sensible choice.

This needs to be qualified for clarity. Urban Halifax is not the same as the city of Halifax.

(Note that this is not the same as the 1996 limits of the City of Halifax. It is roughly similar, just as one would expect, but a bit bigger, reflecting the physical expansion of Halifax between then and now, I assume.)

The urban/suburban, or city area, of HRM actual is roughly 4 times the size of the City of Halifax, and encorporates Dartmouth, Bedford, Cole Harbour, Kearny Lake Road and Hammonds Plans to Lucasville, and the Bay Road to about Timberlea. Please see graphic, above.

This is the view implied by the provincial website on placenames, as I have said before. It is all one to me which view the WP article takes -- or it could consider both views.

I disagree, I don't think its implied at all, I think that it is a historical artifact, and reflects more postal naming schemes than anything relevant to actual built up urban area. I think its a stretch to extrapolate this from that.

The mismatch between the content of the article and the title of the article should be solved by amending the content. The mismatch was brought about by deliberately stripping material from this article and turning it into an article on the pre-1996 municipality.

If we change the article to be the urban area article, then it needs to focus on what, pre-amalgamation, was already called Metropolitan Halifax, which was administered in part by the Metropolitain Authority.

With regard to census data, the right data for a given census is the data for the extent of Halifax at that time -- or the closest thing to, if the data was not prepared in exactly that way.

The population with Dartmouth and Bedford alone with the City of Halifax would be 195K or so, and before HRM was created, the figure given for Metropolitan Halifax was usually 270Kish so the polulation is totally misleading.

Lets decide to either edit this article to be an actual Urban Halifax article, and make it about facts, or merge it into the Halifax Regional Municipality article and create an Urban Halifax section there. I think it is confusing as hell to someone not as schooled in the arcana and nuance of HRM/Halifax issues to have two articles here. It would be considerable clearer if we had a really well writen "urban halifax" section inside of HRM, and Halifax, Nova Scotia forward to the single article.

If we can come to consensus on proposed changes to make this a more comprehensive and accurate article about the urban, or city, area of HRM, that at least is a step forward. WayeMason 01:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my argument that, given the confusion surrounding the topic of the City (pre-1996) vs. a "city" (post-1996), we should wait until the Nova Scotia government clears the legal air, thus maintaining this page to discuss the old City (pre-1996) and subsequent municipality on the Halifax Regional Municipality article. Despite the dictionary definition that others have cited, Nova Scotia defies common logic and has no "cities" so it is very difficult to obtain concrete information about a very subjectively defined entity. See http://www.gov.ns.ca/snsmr/muns/contact/ for more info.Plasma east 15:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
You'll all have to excuse me, but I don't really know that much about dispute resolution on Wikipedia. Discussion on this topic has nearly died off, with the bulk of the discussion ending around April 12. In fact, the last thing posted here by Lonewolf BC who, if I'm reading this correctly, seems to be one of the primary players in this debate, hasn't even said anything since April 12. So, how do we move forward from here? How do we resolve this and get the protect taken off this page, so we can move forward with Halifax-related topics? In other words, what happens next. --hfx_chris 13:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, to be totally fair to Lonewolf, I took over a week to respond the last time, because of work commitments. I feel that if we rush this that we risk it blowing wide open again when he returns. I have been checking his user contributions and he has only done one edit since my proposal above, so he has not been avoiding it. If someone else wants to start a vote on whether to keep or roll this article into something else... I still think a section on urban Halifax can be done best in the HRM article. We have a historic City of Halifax article at History of Halifax. Urban Halifax, Historic City of Halifax. Why ANOTHER article on Halifax? If you all decide to have the urban Halifax article on this page, fine, its a construct but I will participate and try and help make it as good as can be done under the circumstance. WayeMason 01:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Statscan urban area statistics are now available. According to statscan, the urban halifax area's population is 282,924[2], making it 100,000 larger than the former cities of Dartmouth and Halifax combined. If this is going to be a Halifax urban area article we should rewrite it with this figure in mind. WayeMason 18:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Lonewolf has started this article City of Halifax and has not been posting here. I am unclear how to wrap this up at this time. Maybe an lurking admins can advise what we do now, when one of the participants is not participating in coming to some kind of consensus and/or resolution.WayeMason 11:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Statscans urban area statistics are for the Halifax , Dartmouth and Bedford Areas the actual communities are determined by HRM itself not by statscan . To change anything it ready have to come to a vote before something can be done . However look at this discussion page it has become a annual if not a bi mouthly event . What is stopping someone just recreating the page later on ? --19960401 13:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

RFC attempt at consensus

5086 words later (not including other related posts on this page) we are trying to end this dispute.

Four users have posted in favor of city of Halifax, four have posted in favour of an urban area solution, one has suggested that there is no consensus in real life in Nova Scotia and we have to report it as such, one asked what we are going to do to avoid having this dicussion again in 12 months.

The last two points are, I think, actually the things we need to be most mindfull of. We need to report that no consesus, and attempt to do so in a way that is complete, clear, and structured to avoid future confusion.

Folks, we need to pull together on this. Let me propose this:

1 - City of Halifax merges with History of Halifax, and we move the Georgraphy section and the Neighbourhood section from the Halifax, Nova Scotia article to this article.

2 - We create a Halifax Urban Area, Nova Scotia article, where we say "the urban or city area in HRM incompases Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford and parts of the adjacent county" and we spell it out. That article would be about the HRM and Census Canada defined urban area,using that statscan stats, and we spell out al the issues. Halifax and Dartmouth, the fact that the province calls each former city a metropolitan area and that that definition is different than the generally accepted definition of a metropolitan area, HRM says they are one urban area, census calls it an urban area. We explain in an encyclopedic and neutral fashion that this is confusing in part because HRM is one of the few municipalities in the world where the urban city metropolitan area is smaller than the government area. We spell it all out.

3 - The Halifax, NS article becomes a disambig page that links to:

  • HRM
  • Halifax Urban Area
  • History of Halifax
  • Halifax Peninsula
  • Halifax Mainland

Thoughts? WayeMason 02:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I like that idea, anything's better than this embarrassment of an article that people currently searching up Halifax get. Overall, I would prefer Halifax, Nova Scotia simply redirect to HRM as before, but I've gone there a thousand times before and I don't really give a damn at this point. Anything's better than the current situation. I consider Dartmouth a part of 'Halifax'. That's all, Sprocket 02:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Halifax,Nova Scotia and Dartmouth are too different communities in HRM's website if HRM has 200 or more communities and Halifax and Dartmouth are differnt than there should separate pages for the three of them . The HRM page does not even come close to the description of what the HAlifax Regional Municipality is really is - a diverse municipality . 19960401 13:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a great idea, WayeMason. The name "Halifax" could mean any number of different things to a Nova Scotian. Are you referring to HRM? The old City of Halifax? The current community of Halifax? Metro Halifax? The name "Halifax" has been applied to too many different things, a disambiguation page at Halifax, Nova Scotia would break down the confusion, let people know that simply looking up "Halifax" could mean any number of things, and let the user decide what article they want to look at. I support this suggestion. --199.212.16.20 12:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
19960401, there _are_ pages for Bedford • Chebucto Peninsula • Cole Harbour & Westphal • Cow Bay & Eastern Passage • Dartmouth • Eastern Shore East • Eastern Shore West • Mainland Halifax • Halifax Peninsula • Hammonds Plains, Upper Sackville & Beaver Bank • Lake Echo & Porters Lake • Lawrencetown • Musquodoboit Valley & Dutch Settlement • Preston & Cherrybrook • Prospect • St. Margaret's Bay • Timberlea, Lakeside, Beechville, of which some have good articles, some have mediocre, and two are barely there. The issue here is about putting some clarity around "Halifax" not the HRM page, which I admit needs some work, but really, I don't think its appropriate to expect the HRM page to have as much on Sheet Harbour as it has on the urban core, for example.
I have asked Lonewolf to participate in this closure, he has not. If there are no further issues, I will ask the admin to unlock the page as soon as the urban area article has been started. WayeMason 23:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
All of the changes are done. The proposed disambig page would look like this:

The City of Halifax was amalgamated into the Halifax Regional Municipality in 1996. As a result, the name Halifax, Nova Scotia may refer to any of the following:

WayeMason 10:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

These are not good ideas, for reasons that I hope to find time to explain tomorrow. -- Lonewolf BC 07:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, please, PLEASE put together a proposal that attempts to build a consensus, by amendment to the proposal currently on the table, or counter-proposal that keeps in mind and represents the views that are contrary to yours..WayeMason 10:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)