Talk:Haliacmon

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Contents 1 Naming 2 English letter á 3 Move to Haliacmon? 4 Herodotus Reference

[edit] Naming

It was suggested that this article should be renamed Haliacmon. The vote is shown below:

Britannica gives it as Aliákmon, which is good enough for me... -- ChrisO 07:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The river is known as Aliákmon in English, not Aliakmonas (see for instance Britannica, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Geography, the Hutchinson Encyclopedia and the Crystal Reference Encyclopedia). I'm moving the article back to where it was. -- ChrisO 10:40, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Aliákmon is the katharevousa version, the modern version (official since 1976) is Aliákmonas. Maybe the encyclopedias you found still use the katharevousa name. I agree that you'll probably find Aliakmon (without the accent) more often in English texts, but if you're going to make it Greek, better make it modern Greek. Markussep 10:52, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Those are modern encyclopedias, all published since 2000. I don't think it's for us to decide whether Aliakmonas or Aliákmon is the correct version - the important issue is which is the one that is conventionally used in English. Clearly this is Aliákmon (with or without the accent). I didn't find a single reference to Aliakmonas. -- ChrisO 10:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If Wikipedia is to become a work of reference in its own right, it needs to wean itself off the encyclopaedias of the big publishing firms and start thinking a little outside the square. Using the obsolete Aliákmon form which is neither the ancient nor the official modern form is absurd.--Theathenae 11:32, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I shouldn't have to remind you that this is the English language Wikipedia. Just like with Athens, Santorini, Corfu etc, we use the form that is used most often in English, even if that form is not what is used locally: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." (Wikipedia:Naming conventions)

And it's not just the big encyclopedias that use the name Aliákmon - compare the Google results for Aliakmon and Aliakmonas. Aliakmon/Aliákmon is dominant by a 10-to-1 majority. -- ChrisO 12:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? How many (non-Greek) English-speakers do you know who have even heard of the name Aliákmon? "The majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" no name, neither Aliákmon nor Aliákmonas. On the other hand, if you took all English-speakers, including Greeks, then the most common name in English overall would be Aliákmonas, purely because the name of the river is unknown or of scant interest to anybody who isn't Greek. Athens, Corfu and Santorini are clearly in a different league altogether, as most English-speakers have heard of them and the English names are well established.--Theathenae 13:03, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Plenty of non-Greeks have heard of it, as the Google results indicate. Aliákmonas simply isn't as well used in English. You can't get around the facts that Aliákmon is universally used in English-language encyclopedias and that it's by far the most commonly used version in English. How do you explain that? -- ChrisO

I must say I'm not so impressed by what the English language encyclopedias write about Greek rivers. For instance EB gives Strimón as the modern Greek name for Struma River, and that should be Strymónas (Στρυμόνας). Google tests are not very reliable either, because most internet sites are written by amateurs (like ourselves ;-) ). Markussep 13:52, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If we're really serious about using the most widely known English version, why not merge this article with Haliacmon? Why the need for such a dichotomy? Is it not the same river? The English-language encyclopaedias that feed websites like those regurgitated on Google are simply stuck in a time warp as far as Greek toponyms are concerned. They still use the katharevousa variants, despite katharevousa being abolished thirty years ago. You'd think Wikipedia would be more forward-thinking and nuanced than stuffy old Britannica. Obviously not.--Theathenae 14:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're right about merging with Haliacmon, that can be the history section of the Aliakmonas article. I agree completely about using modern names, not katharevousa. That is, if there is no other name really commonly used in English, like Corfu, Athens, Sparta etc. Markussep 14:26, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the Haliacmon point. But once again, I'll point out that Aliákmon is universally used in English-language encyclopedias and that it's by far the most commonly used version in English. The naming of this article isn't about being "forward-thinking and nuanced", it's about what the most common name for this river is in the English language. That very obviously is Aliákmon. Breaking away from the common usage needs to have a better reason that "I don't like it", which is what Theathenae's objections boil down to. -- ChrisO 18:19, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, that's already the 4th time this page is moved today, let's give it a break and invite some others to give their opinion! Markussep 18:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I also go for Aliákmon, more common in English. Also, more natural to English rhythm. Alexander 007 19:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was asked to take a look at this case and give my opinion. Frankly, I don't think it's a huge deal, especially since 1) both forms are mentioned 2) there are redirects 3) the forms are almost identical. I checked the English-language web sites of several Greek government ministries (unfortunately, they don't have a common suffix like gov.gr, so you can't check them all very easily), and found that both forms were being used, in about equal numbers. I suppose this could be a remnant of Katharevousa in administrative language, but if even the Greek government is 50/50, it seems as though the transition from Aliakmon -> Aliakmonas in English is not complete. So Aliakmon seems like a better choice. --Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I found another useful resource on this question - the US government's National Geospatial Intelligence Agency's geonames database (see http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp ). Searching for Aliakmon, it returns "Aliákmon Potamós" (i.e. Aliákmon River) as the principal name, plus a string of variants. The GNS server looks like it could be quite a useful source for placenames and their variants. -- ChrisO 22:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is, usually, but not for Greece. See for instance what it does for Chios (native according to GNS Chios) and Chersonis(s)os (native according to GNS Khersónisos, but the island is Nisída Chersóniso). It is also very inconsequent with upsilon (y or i) and delta (d or dh). Markussep 28 June 2005 14:58 (UTC)

[edit] English letter á

The english language has not letter "á" !The article is Aliakmon Vergina 23:31, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) (I moved this comment to the appropriate heading. --Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC))

What is the name of the English letter á in English?--Theathenae 19:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We would call it "a with an acute accent". It's usually used in English words borrowed from other languages (e.g. sauté, roué, café, touché, fiancé) and, of course, in foreign placenames. -- ChrisO 19:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think User:Vergina and User:Theathenae are suggesting that it can't be the English name if it has an accent. Two arguments against this: 1) foreign words often keep the accent in English; 2) it can be considered as useful additional information. For example, the publications of the Touring Club of Italy put accents on all placenames where they are not regular, even if they are not normally written. --Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is no English letter á; use of it marks a term as a foreign loan word. (Compare Panama and Panamá.) If there is an English name for the river, it is Haliacmon; this is used by 19th and 20th century travellers who are writing only of modern times. (If there is none, the naming conventions probably put the article under the transliterated Demotic form, as current official usage in Greek.) Septentrionalis 7 July 2005 19:48 (UTC)

Can someone tell from which language did the loan word Aliákmon come from? The answer should be part of the wiki, if it stays named Aliákmon. If it's moved to Aliakmon or even better Haliacmon, á can remain to indicate pronounciation.

google test:
Aliákmon -wikipedia almost 6700 results
Aliakmon -wikipedia almost 6100 results
MATIA 10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

According to this talk page, it's katharevousa. Septentrionalis 20:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm guessing that it is n't directly from Greek, so I'm wondering from which language it came from. If it was from Katharevousa then according to the rules it would need to start with "Ha"- because of the "Ἁ". Some examples.

MATIA 23:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Haliacmon, son of Oceanus and Thetys, was a river god of Macedonia.
See Hesiod Theogony 341; Strabo vii. p. 330.
Definition from Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology by William Smith.

Theogony: (ll. 334-345) And Tethys bare to Ocean eddying rivers, Nilus, and Alpheus, and deep-swirling Eridanus, Strymon, and Meander, and the fair stream of Ister, and Phasis, and Rhesus, and the silver eddies of Achelous, Nessus, and Rhodius, Haliacmon, and Heptaporus, Granicus, and Aesepus, and holy Simois, and Peneus, and Hermus, and Caicus fair stream, and great Sangarius, Ladon, Parthenius, Euenus, Ardescus, and divine Scamander.

Strabo: The Haliacmon flows into the Thermaean Gulf. and some more mentions of the river.

MATIA

I've searched with google un.org and I could only find references for Aliakmonas.MATIA 23:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

In 1911 encyclopedia "Emathia, the district between the Haliacmon (Bistritza) and Axius, was once called Paeonia". MATIA 23:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Haliacmon?

• I support on the grounds that it is the name most sidely recognized in English. Septentrionalis 21:37, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• I support Haliacmon for reasons I've written above (transliteration rules, translations of Hesiod & Strabo's texts etc). I also think that on local road signs, it's written in english as Haliacmon.MATIA 23:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 09:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Herodotus Reference

Can anyone give the reference for the Herodotus account?--Bogande 20:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I found the reference and put it in the article. Bogande 14:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)