Talk:HAL Tejas

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[edit] "Tejas" pronunciation

For those of you who are native to India, how is "Tejas" properly pronounced? Is it "thay' jus" (as I've seen it in Jane's and every other publication I've come across to date)? Is it "tey' jus" (which would have a long 'e' sound like "tee jus" — which I doubt is what Rgz500 meant to convey)? Is it "tay' jus" (which would have a long 'a' sound, which is what I believe Rgz500 was trying to convey)? Or are there regional variations in India where some substitute 't' for 'th'? Askari Mark | Talk 17:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Mark, the pronounciation closest is "Thay jus" itself, as you had written originally. The "ay" is pronounced as in "say", and "jus" is pronounced as in "just". But the problem is in the "Te" part. You can imagine pronouncing "Three" without the "h". That sound is for the "T" in Tejas. Of course we don't actually write it as Thayjus just as we don't write Nine as Naa-een or Look as Luk. Thank you. IAF

Thank you, IAF. I'll revert Rgz500's change, then. Askari Mark | Talk 22:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It will be nice if someone can record and put up the pronunciation of Tejas (like is done with the names of quite a few people). My mike ain't working, so i'm not able to record it. The moment its fixed, i'll record it. If anyone can do it by then, it would be nice. Thanks Sniperz11 22:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have added the sanskrit script for the Tejas. P.S.: Now, also added the pronounciation ogg file and removed the Thay Jus line. cheers. Sniperz11 18:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am native to India. I think it's pronounced teh-jaas. The T is pronounced like the 'th' in width. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Preferably someone who speaks Sanskrit (I can't!). Regards to all.

--Hornet94 (talk) 15:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Theres a pronunciation file on the article... That should be able to answer your question. Anyway, the name is The-jas- th (widTH) a (thEY) Jus (as in JUSt). Hope that answered your qn. If not, theres always the pronunciation file. Sniperz11^talk|edits 17:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Induction vs. IOC

As a point of clarification for editors who are not aware of it, induction and initial operational capability (IOC) are not the same thing — although frequently confused as such in the West and in the press. "Induction" is official "acceptance"; IOC occurs later when the first squadron becomes "mission-ready" with operational aircraft. Askari Mark (Talk) 14:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Information available on certification procedure of aircraft is quite obscure, especially wrt requirements for IOC and FOC. it would be nice if we could add a section on this (a new article on aircraft certification would also help).

Another doubt that i have (and might be shared by other people as well) is the project time line. For eg, how does the LCA compare to other aircraft projects. For eg, the project was mooted in '83, ASR was finalised only in'85, PD phase ended in '88 and FSED phase only began full-scale in '93. So, when projects 'begin', is it the FSED phase, initial prototype testing or the project definition phase that is considered? This would help compare the LCA wrt other development programs like the J-10, F-16, Gripen and others. Cheers, Sniperz11 14:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

There is some information "out there" specifically comparing the LCA to other programs, but I don't have the time to run it down right now. Such an article would be a good idea, but keep in mind that, in general, the later the "generation", the longer the gestation. Askari Mark (Talk) 22:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HAL TEJAS VS JF-17 VS F-16

I really don't know, how do we compare Tejas(white elephant)which after eating 5500 crore rupees of Indian Tax payees ,still under evaluation/trial. According to "The Hindu" news paper of India,"In 2007, it was reported that empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircraft’s long term induction into the squadron service."

The IAF has communicated that the Tejas’ performance, both in terms of thrust and its airframe qualities, was still a long way from what was desirable. The Tejas, as per the IAF drawn up ASR, had to be "much, much better" than the MiG-21s. Though the fly-by-wire Tejas has its plus points, data, including from the aircraft’s recent low altitude tests at INS Rajali in Arakonam, showed that this might not be possible with the present configuration.

An Air Force officer said: We have been given a mandate by the government and with this in mind drawn up an ASR. It has to be met. There is no point in the ADA pressuring us to accept a lower ASR at this stage. For years, at every meeting, the ADA has been saying that the Tejas will comply with the ASR.

It is recently came to knowledge that IAF was not willing to acquire a single LCA jet into IAF fleet,DRDO/HAl representative speaks; "DRDO and HAL representative Shri Antony said in a press conference that; major breakthroughs in the project have been achieved in recent times and he is confident that; it will be in the sky within a few years.Indian Air Force, which was not willing to accept even one of this aircraft earlier, has now decided to receive two squadrons.

Now I'm asking,whats the reason? why they have decided to add two squadrons? while they had planned to induct 200 aircrafts,later on they even refused to take a single aircraft why? its very much logical that DRDO/HAL, whom are jointly working on development of HAL-Tejas. After taking more than 25 years and 5500 crore rupees, it has not produced satisfactory results,according to ASR standard,so due to scary of Indian people anger and disgrace globally, IAF came forward to save DRDO/HAL high profiles.This is further strengthen by the news that IAF decided to counter JF-17 with 126 MRCA, for sake of argument if, we accept it that Tejas is comparable to Jf-17, then question rises again for what reason IAF aquiring 126 MRCA.?It doesn't make sense.

I think it is very unfair that,we are comparing LCA-Tejas (which seems has no future)with "JF-17,so it should be removed on following above mentioned basis,and I also request you that only official accepted aircrafts should be included in comparable list not an evaluated aircraft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs) 06:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

See WT:AIR for further discussion on this issue. - BillCJ (talk) 07:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unit costs

Sniperz11 recently noted that the costs listed for several aircraft at the end of the 'Unit costs' section are conservative. This is, to a degree, correct; however, it's ~~very~~ extremely hard to find open-source comparisons of any kind, and to date the Times of India estimates provided is the only set of comparative values I have found that include the LCA. Do please keep "eyes open" for any others, especially more recent ones.

On the other hand, there is also a degree of "incorrectness" to his observation. Most non-experts in the field — and "experts" include few journalists — are unaware that there are a multitude of types of "costs" measured in the aerospace field, particularly for military aircraft. Traditionally "fly-away costs" (FAC) have been the norm, but there are two different kinds of FACs ("basic" and "total") and lately, thanks to the JSF program, marketeers have begun employing a third, partial cost known as "unit recurring FAC" (URF), which is only part (albeit the major part) of the basic FAC. For further insight, you may wish to peruse "Understanding aircraft unit costs", an essay I wrote to aid WP:AIRCRAFT editors in understanding the issue. Askari Mark (Talk) 04:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Very enlightening essay, Mr. Askari Mark. Thank you for correcting the inaccuracies in my editing. I'd like to know your opinion of this piece i found on Defence-aerospace.com on estimating aircraft costs. Is it good enough to be used as a source? Cheers. Sniperz11 04:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of that analysis — and that it has some serious methodological problems which lead to a few mistaken conclusions as well as cost estimates for some aircraft that are significantly underestimated. (I can – and have – dissected it for business purposes.) That said, it is one of the few useful analyses in the public media. Since Wikipedia is less about capturing the "real truth" (which would require original research in many cases) about a topic than it is about capturing what has been publicly written about that topic, it is indeed "good enough" to use as a source for Wikipedia. The key is to cite it appropriately. However, it doesn't particularly help us with this article because it doesn't include the Tejas and the methodology is not the same used by the currently quoted source. Askari Mark (Talk) 17:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LCA HMDS & Navigation System

Somebody confirm that HMDS is Dash because in harrys article its given that HMDS will be new one incorporating features from Dash and JHMCS.

And also read about indigenous development Navigation System, what is the status right now? --219.91.198.10 12:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but are you possibly talking about the IRNSS? --Effer^AKS 21:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

Hi. With Regards to the timeline discussion above. I've created a demo project timeline table for the LCA project at User:Sniperz11/Sandbox 1. I'm adding it below. Cheer. Sniperz11 12:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Light Combat Aircraft Timeline
Year	Date	Event	Remarks
year	date	event	remarks
1969		Aeronautics Committee suggests a Fighter Aircraft Program	Program under HAL
1975		Design studies completed, project shelved	Due to lack of proven engine
1982	date	event	remarks
1983		GoI sanctions LCA project through DRDO	Planned: - 1st flight: 1990 - Production: 1994 - Induction: 1995
1984		ADA set up
1985	Oct	IAF ASR finalised	ASR Delayed
1987		Dassault chosen for Project Definition (PD) Phase
1987	Oct	PD commences
1988	Sep	PD completed
1989	May	Review committee formed
1990		LCA Design Finalised
1990		FSED Phase I commences
1991		Work on TD Aircraft begins. Fund Crunch slows work
1992		CLAW Team set up
1993	April	Full Funding Authorised
1993	June	Full scale work begins
1993		BAe & Lockheed-Martin brought in to advise FCS development
1995	Nov 17	TD-1 rolled out	Aircraft Grounded
1996	July	FCS tested on F-16 VISTA in USA
1998	May 11	Pokhran-II Nuclear test - US announces Sanctions - CLAW work in US ends, - Material impounded
2001	Jan 4	TD-1 First Flight
2003	May 4	PM Vajpayee names LCA 'Tejas'	^[1] ^[2]
2003	Aug 1	TD-1 breaks Mach-1 speed
2004	Mar 31	TD phase ends. (FSED Phase II)? begins
2005	Dec 1	PV-2 1st Flight
2006	Dec 1	PV-3 1st Flight
2007	Apr 25	1st Production Tejas, LSP-1 flies	Reaches Mach 1.1

Do you think it would be OK to add into the page? If so, are any changes needed?

I think it is quite good. But you need to give the sources where ever possible. Kaushal mehta 10:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on that now, although most of the stuff is compiled from the wiki page itself. Sniperz11 11:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A good bit of work! My only concern is that it is a long list for an already long article. Before adding it, it should probably be discussed at WikiProject Aircraft. Askari Mark (Talk) 17:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I was afraid of that, which is why i posted it here first... Do you think we can shorten it? I'll post it at the talk page as well. Sniperz11 18:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paris air show

[1] This link of list of aircrafts being displayed at Paris air show does not have Tejas as either static or flying display, so I am removing the section from status page. Kaushal mehta 10:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for changing it. The previous version of the official excel sheet of aircrafts participating (from the paris air show site) showed the LCA as both static & flying display, which is why I added it. The latest version does not have it. In addn, the airshows.be site shows the LCa as cancelled. Sniperz11 11:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[2]This gives the reason why it missed the air show. Well after a flurry of updates the ada website is again silent. Kaushal mehta 12:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sea level trials

The trails are heating up, or atleast they seem to be for the time being, heads up and faster status update, keep up the good work guys. Kaushal mehta 06:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why writing two times about Engine, Radar & FBW

we can merge the sections of Kaveri/Engine, Radar/MMR, and FBW FCS. Since there is already an article for Kaveri, Giving such detailed description is that necessary? ofcourse we can do it only if we think article is too big.

Sniperz11 instead of timelines we write about reasons for delays. In many news article they write that tejas program is began in 1983, we should about the reasons for delays & Challenges Indian defence industry faced. And we can also add importance of tejas to Indian Aviation Industry.

The reason for the timeline was not to talk about the delays, but instead, to give thre reader a concise overview of the project history. Right now, the relevant section is full of technical details interspersed with the history, which makes the section long and hard to read... a timeline solves some of those problems. Reasons for the delays is important, but not enough to warrant a table, since delays are not the defining factor of the LCA project. Sniperz11 16:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weaponisation

Weaponisation started?

Report Dated 29/1/2007 [3] Meanwhile, the weaponisation of LCA PV3 is on at the production hangar. Armed with R-73 missiles, PV3 is expected to incorporate drop tanks in later phases, Mohan said.

The weaponisation will be completed in 18 months.

Report Dated 05/2/2007 [4] India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is poised for weaponisation in April, said Dr. PS Subramanyam, Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Programme Director for LCA.

"The weaponisation of LCA is a milestone in proving the world Indian capabilities of building a fighter aircraft. This would also take Indian into a league of select nations," Dr. Subramanyam told ANI in an exclusive interview.

And now we have PV3 flying in Arakkonam. Is it for weapon test?

As per latest reports, weaponisation is in progress. It started in 2005 itself, with basic integration of the weapons. Right now, what the article is talking about is the flight trials of these weapons. The latest Arakkonam trials were for sea level tests, to see the LCA performance in hot and humid conditions, under heavy stress of frequent flying. In addition, navigation capabilities over sea were also tested. Sniperz11 03:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Cleanup needed

The page needs a concerted cleanup operation to improve its readability. As I see it, there is a basic structure to the page, but there is a huge amount of information thats just piled up, put there by different sources, without worrying about what would happen to the whole page or the section. As a result, its hard to get past a few paragraphs of this page.

I think its necessary that a lot of extraneous info be removed, and a lot of information be put in the right place, not to forget about updating the language in many places. That would improve the readability of the page, and give a clear chance to get the page to atleast a GA-status, which it deserves. The only way to do this is for a large number of editors to work together to format the page properly. Hoping for all your support. Thanks and Cheers. Sniperz11^talk|edits 16:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk Archives

Hi. As the Talk page was getting far too long and unwieldy, I have created Archive pages for the old talk. Due to the size of the page, I had to create two talk archives- the first has old posts from mid-2006 to end-06. The second archive has edits from end-2006 to mid-2007. I have kept some old posts on this page because of the information that has been presented, which will aid any new editors.

If you feel that something is missing, or didn't deserve to be in an archive, feel free to move it back to this page. Also, since Archive 2 is not too long at the moment, I suggest that any closed or old debates can be moved there first.

Thanks. Cheers. Sniperz11^talk|edits 18:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have also created a to do list. I feel this will help editors prioritize and collaborate better in improving the page, as well as in guiding any new editors in making improvements to the page. Sniperz11^talk|edits 18:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Tejas Litening.jpg

Image:Tejas Litening.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 08:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] F-16VISTA is not f-16

The article describes the FBW control is tested on a F-16 VISTA, which is to a degree correct, but more accurately its called F-16XL/XLE in Lockheed's own naming schema. Also it links to "ordinary" F-16 FF page.

for starters F-16XLE is a Deltawing craft, and presently operated by NASA for advanced flight control tests.

If possible , kindly change it to reflect it and link it.

Swraj (talk) 15:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comparable Aircrafts

This problem has been raised in WT:AIR and after discussion on this topic, it has been decided that only those aircrafts should be included in the list which were produced in the same Era.According to (Rlandmann)"comparable" simply means similar in general class, role, and era. It doesn't talk about capability,performance etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs) 05:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] All Tejas pictures about to be deleted

Team

All the pictures on this topic are set for deletion in the wikimedia commons due to license issues. Does anyone have any replacement pictures they can upload to Wikipedia?

Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 06:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Kaahi licence issues naahi aahet. Sagadle open source aahet, because they have been retraced from ADA, which is directly under the Defence ministry, Union of India. Images delete karu nakaa. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

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