Talk:Haka of the All Blacks

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[edit] Kapa O Pango

Kapa O Pango is not in essence a new haka designed specifically for the All Blacks all the actions are taken from traditional school haka including actions used by St Stephens School, Bombay Auckland since the 1970's. Though some of the words have been changed to include the All Blacks the general theme and actions are still the same as the school haka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gkoroaha (talk • contribs) 17:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Other New Zealand Teams Preforming the Haka

At the World Basketball Championships where New Zealand also participated, I've seen the team do the haka before the game as well. By that, does this Haka dance ritual apply to the other N/Z Teams other than "All Blacks" rugby team too?

I'm not sure what teams do the haka before a match, however I have seen the New Zealand Mens Hockey Team (The Blacksticks) do a haka before some of their matches. 123.255.60.145 04:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BYU

The BYU football team does a Haka before every home football game. Should this be included in this article?

[edit] To do

Reformat lyrics and translation layout for 'Ka mate' to match that of 'Kapa o Pango'. Kahuroa 19:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC) one Kahuroa 00:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracies

In the third paragraph of the History section, it describes NZ facing the Australians "as it addressed the 'Kangaroos'" The correct 'nickname' for the Australian RFU team is the 'Wallabies' (ref:http://www.rugby.com.au/qantas_wallabies/brief_history/who_are_the_wallabies,143.html) also see Wikipedia page for ARFU team. Jcfotheringham 00:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

(Copied, on suggestion, from the All Blacks discussion page.)

The Haka seems to have been performed for a very long time by the All Blacks, but different versions may have been used at different times. There's references to some versions using mats and other props, for example, which wouldn't make much sense with the current form. There are apparently criticisms amongst purists that the current dance mixes in other Maori dances and therefore isn't really Haka. Early New Zealand teams seem to have included a lot of Maori, so I think we can assume those were "correct". JD

[edit] Under Review

The new Kapa O Pango is currently being reviewed as there are concerns it is too aggresive, while it is the team has been asked not to perform it. However it looks like it will probably end up being allowed.

[edit] Suggestion

The current page only shows the All Blacks' perspective. Would it be a good idea perhaps to include some notable reactions to the Haka by opposing teams (I can think of two incidents, but my recollection is shakey and I can't find sources; Fran Cotton's infamous "Look at the poofs dancing" and another England captain's intimidation (standing right in front of the New Zealanders and glaring at them as they performed the Haka; I really can't recall who instigated this, or when) are notable, but I'm sure there have been other incidents where respect for the All Blacks has not been maintained, shall we say...)86.11.124.189 19:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It was Brian Moore the former England hooker who stepped out and confronted it, I believe he was the first opposition player ever to respond to the haka in any way, thoguh I may be wrong. Other notable examples to include would be the French ignoring ti to carry on their warm-up and the Tongans performing their own haka at the same time (there are several videos of this on youtube) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.32.11.115 (talk)

I think it's going to be hard to determine the notability of some of these reactions to the haka. I really do doubt that Brian Moore was the first player to confront it, and it'd be hard to establish whether he was or not. I think their should be some mention of other Polynesian/pacific island haka though (they wouldn't be called that of course, but I don't know the correct term!), however it'd need to be pretty brief and accurate. So I won't be adding it. - Shudda talk 23:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
  • We should just write it. Of course there would be different opions on what is notable, but that doesnt mean we should not attempt it. There are some very famous reactions etc to the Haka. We need to create a paragraph on this.Narrasawa 14:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
As long as it's referenced. It will be hard to establish notability though, there could be a newspaper article, or something in a book written about that which could be used as a ref though. I think what is more important would be to add a paragraph on what the other Pacific Island nations do instead of a haka though. - Shudda talk 21:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm creating a 'controversy' section. The recent match with Wales had (as I'm sure you all know) the haka performed in the players' tunnel in a dispute between the WRU and the All Blacks. This is worth a mention IMO.GordyB 13:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Response wise, We've got the Bledisloe from 1996 where the Aussies ignored the Haka and carried on training (Ref:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,377-2260711,00.html), the Lions 2005 tour with the blade of grass and Ireland linked arms and chanted "You'll never beat the Irish" whilst marching towards them in 1989. (Ref:http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/s988631.htm) NZ won all three matches. Alexj2002 17:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rationalisation of this article & the separate articles for the haka

Proposal

  1. Haka of the All Blacks article to cover general use of haka by ABs and some general info about the specific haka. Detailed info about specific haka to be moved (as below), incl lyrics (unless lyrics used by ABs differ from those used in Maori cultural contexts).
  2. Detailed info about "Ka Mate" be either copied or moved to Ka Mate article. Ka Mate to cover:
    1. Origins of "Ka Mate"; use of the haka in Maori contexts; Ngai Tahu views etc.
    2. Lyrics and perhaps desc of actions
    3. Formal use by ABs and other sports teams or other groups
    4. Use in popular kiwi (Pakeha & Maori) culture; token of national identity etc.
  3. 2006 Kapa O Pango controversy article to be renamed Kapa o Pango (lower case o because it's a preposition). Detailed info about "Kapa o Pango" either copied or moved from Haka of the All Blacks to Kapa o Pango. Kapa o Pango to cover:
    1. Composition and purpose of "Kapa o Pango"; performance history etc.
    2. Lyrics and perhaps desc of all actions
    3. The 2006 controversy or the 2005-06 controversy and, in future, the 2005-07 controversy etc.

Nurg 02:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. I have copied some of the info out of Ka mate into Haka and feel okay about leaving things as Nurg proposes. Kahuroa 05:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree Though some general haka info/history should stay here.Allblacks91 16:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree I just slapped a merge proposal on this page, but I think your option is better. Make this article the main reference, and Haka of the All Blacks a brief intro. ~~ Papeschr 09:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I would like to see 2006 Kapa O Pango controversy merged into this article, so this one covers everything. Is that ok? Cvene64 02:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War Dance

I have a feeling this is going to be controversial, but it really shouldn't be: I have changed the description of the all black haka from a "posture dance" (what on earth is that when it's at home?) to a "war dance". While other hakas may not be, Ka Mate (and Kapa o Pango, for that matter) is unequivocally a war dance, and is used as such by the All Blacks. ElectricRay 00:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Performance

Would the lyrics be better off at somewhere like Wikisource instead? Cvene64 08:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

All Blacks beat Wales 41 - 3 in Cardiff autumn 2005 this is a higher margin of victory than the 45 - 10 victory when the Haka controversy took place. Secondly the biggest All Black winning margin over a Welsh side was the 55 - 3 victory in New Zealand in 2003.

"Scientific study shows strength, speed and endurance increases can be as substantial as 60% in some players."

This sounds very unlikely, and cites no reference that I can see.

[edit] Scientific study?

"Scientific study shows strength, speed and endurance increases can be as substantial as 60% in some players."

This sounds very unlikely, and cites no reference that I can see.

  • I've deleted this, as it's completely unencyclopaedic tosh. No citation, and pretty damn unlikely! --195.217.52.130 17:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it was re-inserted so I have also removed it.

[edit] Pic

I found this creative commons licenced pic on flickr and want to add it to this page, but I have no idea which haka it is. It's from a match against France on 18 November 2006. --Helenalex 19:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

According to this video it's Ka mate. - Shudde talk 23:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed change to controversy

I would ask that this statement "The crowd reacted negatively to the lack of the haka and then being shown brief footage of the haka on the screens at the Millennium Stadium.[8]"

Be changed to "The crowd reacted negatively to the decision by the All Blacks not to perform that Haka". I was there that day, whilst I didnt speak to every member of the crowd to gauge their opinions (and neither did anybody else obviously) however the boos were more directed against the decision NOT to perform the Haka as opposed to the non performance of the Haka in my recolection. Unless you can provide a source that scientifically polled each member of the crowd I would suggest we change that statement to reflect the reality (ie the crowd reacted negatively to the all blacks not performing the haka)and not the perception which is that they crowd reacted negatively because they didn't get to see the haka. The difference in language is small but in meaning is huge. cheers Adam777 09:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)