Talk:Hajj Amin Elahi

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2008-01-18. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hajj Amin Elahi article.
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[edit] Musical Genius

This man was the greatest Kurdish musician in history. There are many article and books in which he is mentioned as one of the greatest masters of the Tanbur, but most of them are in Kurdish. It is very academically important to expand and develop this article. Unfortunately the western world knows very little about eastern music and there music masters.--Octavian history (talk) 08:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

  • I have removed the tags and Hajj Amin Elahi can not be deleted according to wikipedia rules. "Once the proposed deletion of a page has been objected to by anyone, it may not be proposed for deletion again." Plus the majority of the votes decided on keeping the articel at: [1]
  • "If you disagree: Any editor who disagrees with a proposed deletion can simply remove the tag. Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking. In both cases the editor is encouraged to fix the perceived problem with the page.
  • Renominations: Once the proposed deletion of a page has been objected to by anyone, it may not be proposed for deletion again. If an editor still feels the page ought to be deleted, a deletion discussion should be used, as indicated below.{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy] --Octavian history (talk) 07:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You are referring to proposed deletions, which uses the {{prod}} tag. This has already gone to deletion discussion which is a different process. The AfD tag is not the same as the prod tag, and you can't remove it until AfD is finished. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic References

I took the time to check the references that were provided for this article and found that they do not back up what is being claimed. The first reference (The Spirit of Sounds by Jean During) contains a few sentences in the appendix regarding the subject of this article that do nothing to indicate anything other than that the subject was indeed a musician. The second reference is a paid obituary notice, that may serve to establish the date of death of the subject, but does nothing else. The third reference (The Yaresan by M. Reza Hamzeh'ee), which was added in after the AfD discussion initiated, makes no mention of Hajj Amin Elahi whatsoever. See the AfD page for more details. I am placing the appropriate citation tag on the article page. Teleomatic (talk) 23:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

  • He was the greatest tanbur lute master in history. I find it very sad that Teleomatic is so desperately trying to disprove something he does not know about. There are dozens of article about him in Kurdish. The poor kurds don't even have a land they can call there own. I guess you are claiming the Tanbur Society website, New York Times, the two books and the hundreds of article and tapes about him in Kurdish are all fantasy.--Octavian history (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The claims I made were regarding the two books you used as references, which you still haven't addressed. Nor have you provided a single one of the hundreds of other sources that you claim are available. Why is that? Teleomatic (talk) 01:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I did, you are wrong. The citations are correct. I will repeat that his person never lived in the United States and was a Kurd, therefor most of the article about him are in Kurdish. This is the third time you have asked the same question and I have repeated the same answer. Please read what I already before.--Octavian history (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Perhaps I wasn’t being clear: simply repeating again that the citations are correct is not enough. In order to adequately address the issue of why the two books you have provided as references do not back up the claims you have made in the article, please provide the specific page numbers that you used in your research. To be more specific, you may want to reread pages 144-146 of The Spirit of Sounds by Jean During:
[Ostad Elahi's sister] had several students, among whom Amin Elahi, Ostad's eldest son born in 1920, stood out. He too, practices music as a means of devotion and meditation, and plays the tanbour in a sweet and captivating manner with an inexhaustible inspiration. In addition, he plays the flute (ney) using the circulatory respiration technique... (p.144)
At that period, only three people were considered by Ostad to be good tambour musicians: my aunt Sheykh Jani, who knew the whole repertoire; my elder brother Haj Amin, who played in his own manner; and Seyyed Nure, a friend of the family. (p.146)
Are there other passages that I’m missing that refer to him as “a master Kurdish musician and a prolific player of the tanbur who composed many new musical modes”? If so, why don’t you provide the page numbers and I’ll withdraw my AfD.
As for The Yaresan by M. Reza Hamzeh’ee, I could find no mention of Haj Amin at all. There is less than two pages on the subject of music on 160-161, and these mention Nur Ali Ehali as “one of the best players of the ‘Tanbur’ in Iran”, not his son. Could you please provide the page numbers that you used when you felt it was appropriate to add this book as a citation for the sentence “He was one of the first people to record the ancient tones of the tanbur.” Again, if I missed something, I’ll gladly withdraw my AfD .
Also, as I am contesting the validity of these references, please stop removing the template that I’ve added to the article. Again, simply repeating that you’ve checked the citations is not enough when they’re being called into question. Teleomatic (talk) 11:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Note As stated before, most of the text and information about this musical prodigy is in the Kurdish language, not English. About the two English books you mention, if you read the entire book, you will absolutely be able to secure the citations.
As the one citing the books, the onus is on you to provide the citations. Presumably, you have read the books, and could provide the requested page numbers. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The sources you give for your information “should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question.” So I’ll ask you once again to provide the page numbers you used in each book. It’s simply a matter of Wikipedia policy. Teleomatic (talk) 04:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the TanburSociety.com website that is endorsing Hajj Amin Elahi’s music, you will notice that they are official members of the Recording Academy, which is the same as the Grammy Awards. The Grammy Awards are the most prestigious venue for musicians in the world. Lets say you are correct and the New York Times is wrong, the two books are wrong, and the dozens of articles in Kurdish are wrong. If it was not true, why on earth would an official Grammy member state "Hajj Amin was a master at the art of tanbur... His style which is known as the “Hajj-Amini” style has become universally accepted by many mainstream tanbur players...".--Octavian history (talk) 01:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the paid obituary from the NYT as if it was something that was researched and written by the Times. I personally don’t find it objectionable if you want to use it as a source for the place and date of death - the obituary makes no claims about the notability of the subject in any event. As for the Tanbursociety.com website, it might be a good idea to write the author of that page and ask them what their references were, since none are given there either. Lastly, since you seem to be the only editor who is intimately familiar with the subject and presumably also in possession of dozens, if not hundreds, of articles written in Kurdish on the this musician, perhaps the Kurdish language edition of Wikipedia would be a more appropriate venue for this piece, at least until you find valid sources written in English. Teleomatic (talk) 04:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
How fascinating that you were able to pull up both rare books within hours from the time the citations went up. I strongly believe there is a desperate and hidden agenda here. I will qoute Kevin Murray below, I think he said it best.
"Tele, I don't see how you can search for references without reading the whole book, page by page and line by line. I'm a little concerned about the intellectual independence of both the writer of the article and the nominator; is there something deeper here? While I applaud dedication, what would motivate an editor to go out and optain an obscure book in order to document an Afd. I think that there is more to the story and controversy smacks of notability. --Kevin Murray (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)"
This is turning into a heated argument where we are both repeating ourselves. The main talk page is not a place for battles. Read the above, and the other page and it explains my point of view. It is obvious that you desperately want to delete this page and no matter how many citations I bring, you will object. My POV does not matter, I will let the wikipedians decide. Read the other page, many other Wikipedians have opinions about this at [2] --Octavian history (talk) 06:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
What's even more fascinating is how you keep skirting around the issue of the invalidity of the references you have provided. As I already mentioned in my response to Kevin Murray on the AfD page, neither of these books are at all difficult to find in the library[3] [4] - it took me a matter of minutes to have them in my hands. Suggesting that I'm "desperate" or have a "hidden agenda" is a rather poor attempt to divert attention away from the fact that you've created a non-notable biography, and then gone on to try to preserve it by making up references so that it appears notable. Did you really think that nobody would ever challenge your claims?
I don't find this discussion particularly heated, and certainly not a battle - I'm only asking for the page numbers you used in the books that you provided – I had no idea I would meet with such singular resistance. You’re free to have your own point of view, but if you want to write an article on Wikipedia, you have to be prepared for others to question the notability of your subject and the validity of your resources - don't take it personally. Teleomatic (talk) 02:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removing invalid references

In accordance with Wikipedia policy on verifiability I am removing the below two references from the article page as they do not support the statements made, as detailed in the section above. The author of the article has been given ample opportunity to respond to my concerns, but has so far declined.

  1. During, Jean (2003). The Spirit of Sounds: The Unique Art of Ostad Elahi (1895-1974). Cranbury, NJ: Cornwall books.
  2. Hamzeh’ee, M. Reza (1990). The Yaresan: A Sociological, Historical and Religio-Historical Study of a Kurdish Community. Berlin: Klaus Schwarz Verlag.

Teleomatic (talk) 00:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnocentric censorship

The references are very valid.

1. New York Time (the world largest circulating paper) has his obituary and states "Thousands of people mourn his death around the world and are united in prayer."

2. I have read many article in Kurdish about him and he is the greatest Kurdish musician. But, many of the article are in Kurdish and not English.

3. If you look at the www.TanburSociety.com website that is endorsing Hajj Amin Elahi’s music, you will notice that they are official members of the Recording Academy, which is the same as the Grammy Awards. The Grammy Awards are the most prestigious venue for musicians in the world. If it was not true, why on earth would an official Grammy member state "Hajj Amin was a master at the art of tanbur... His style which is known as the “Hajj-Amini” style has become universally accepted by many mainstream tanbur players...".

4. There are two valid books listed, one of which even tele agrees he is mentioned a few times.

We have to be sensitive to foreign languages, especially here in the United States. President Bush said Africa was one country, and many people believe the same. Most individuals in the United States think the Japanese, Chines and Koreans are the same, but we know there is a substantial difference. People here know absolutely nothing about the Kurds, and the poor people don't even have a land they can call there own. It would be an absolute crime against humanity to try to wipe out an article about one of the greatest musicians they had. It would only show the level of ignorance and the high level of ethnocentric censorship.--Octavian history (talk) 05:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

 :We are the Kurdish people have been censorship for over 1000 years. This man was the great muscian, why american want to take off Kurds? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdestani (talk • contribs) 22:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC) — Kurdestani (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
As has been pointed out numerous times above, the way to prove that your references are valid when they have been called into question is to provide the page numbers you have used. You haven’t done this, so to continue to claim that they’re valid doesn’t have much merit.
The proposed deletion of this article has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the subject. It has only to do with their notability. You also keep bringing up the paid death notice from the NYT, which doesn’t even mention if this individual was Kurdish or even that he was a musician! At best it can be used to verify the date and place of death.
The website you keep mentioning does not seem like a reliable third party source. It does not list any sources or mention where else the subject is talked about. I can also find no mention of this society anywhere else on the web, including on directories of non-profit societies. Wikipedia has clear guidelines on what qualifies as a reliable source, something you may want to consider before suggesting tanbursociety.com be used as one: Wikipedia:Verifiability. Teleomatic (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I am a first time user, but had to jump in. There is obviously some major claims of excellence made by wiki users, the Grammy Awards member website, etc. His music does sound nice on the site. Also, I do not believe anyone would be sick enough to pay thousands of dollars to fake an obituary about a person in the New York Times, and a website and books and individuals on Wikipedia, etc. It is most obvious to me and anyone who reads tha above rants by Tel, would know that he has some alternative motives for attacking the subject so much. Just my opinion! Good luck to your battles, (you guys must have nothing better to do?). lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicspotgreen (talk • contribs) 03:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I smell socks. Mostlyharmless (talk) 05:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
A whole drawer full, as it turns out. Teleomatic (talk) 00:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)