Talk:Haiti/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Top 2 There is plenty of proof available online 3 When you have to turn to the internet for proof... 4 The U.S. 5 The U.S.'s own account of the Occupation 6 HSKI: Haitian Death Squads and Child Murders 7 Map 8 Whoa!! This article needs some work. 9 Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board 10 About the Tropical Jeanne piece 11 Post-Aristide 12 Wording in intro 12.1 NPOV Dispute 13 Clean Up 14 Hai Ti? 15 Flag 16 History Section "1.7 Post-Aristide" 17 Haitian (disambiguation) 18 1937 Massacre of 18,000 Haitians 19 la:Haitia 20 POV

Top

What is the United State's past and present relationship to Haiti? Also, why wasn't it mentioned that after the slaves won their emancipation they said that they would stop at nothing to end slavery all over the world? That the elite are attempting to remove a democratically elected president to keep Haiti a breading ground for US multi-national corporations?

As to the commitment to stop slavery: You might want to add another sentence if this actually lead to something. As for the last part: We might have a NPOV problem here, yet if you can present it in a neutral way, please add something about it. DrZ 14:59, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm waiting for permission from a source to provide this evidence. I don't understand why it would be a NPOV problem. Neutral from who's perspective? People who live in Haiti or in the United States? ALC 8:04, 1 March 2004

Neutral from all perspectives. That's the definition, is it not? billybobfred 19:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, nothing present about indigenous or new religious traditions (i.e., Catholicism or Vodun). Muaddib 18:39 2004 Feb 24 (CST)

I am surprised that the template has not been applied to this article. -- Kaihsu 20:42, 2004 Feb 10 (UTC)

---

Which country is poorer than Haiti? Andres 21:14, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What the hell is this nonsense?

"A vast terror campaign waged by Aristide supporters has had a deleterious effect on life in Port-au-Prince, the capital city. Obeying to orders from their exiled leader, several gangs in Port-au-Prince waged a kidnapping and rape campaign against ordinary citizens starting on September 30, 2004. That campaign was supported by leaders like Revered Gerard Jean-Juste, who justified during an interview with Liliane Pierre-Paul of Radio Kiskeya, the use of kidnapping and torture as a legitimate revolutionary method to bring Aristide back. The appointment of Mario Andresol - a former police commander under Aristide - as Chief of Police has led to a drastic reduction in violence in the capital city, although Aristide supporters still control certain areas of Cite Soleil and Cite Militaire, where they routinely ransom and torture the citizens who have decided to remain in their homes rather than fleeing the violence."

The only terror campaign in Haiti is being waged by the UN "Peace Keeping Forces" and the US.

There is plenty of proof available online

There is enough unimpeachable evidence available thru the Internet -- i.e. links to haitian organizations -- to demonstrate that this article is unacceptably inaccurate.

Whether the writer is aware of it or not, they are taking a definite pro-imperial stance by "alleged" this, etc. Popularly-elected Aristide was overthrown by the U.S., and he was personally kidnapped by the U.S.; the deathsquads are U.S., elite and Dominican-backed, etc. These facts are only disputed by U.S. propaganda organs like Fox -- which have a very definite agenda that has almost nothing to do with facts.

Please change this entry ASAP.

I agree. The article does not pay any attention to the fact that this issue is being heavily discussed all over the place. The world, that is. .~.

I have two complaints. One is regarding the complaints before this. They ask someone else to fix what they can fix. Then there is the related question of the freeport project which was cancelled under very strange circumstances. By the way, I contributed the original information - while using my identity (the compaints above are from unknown sources.) But on the freeport issue, if this project had gone ahead as planned then development money would have flowed into Haiti. From what I have read but not posted, there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye and that goes to the question of why Haiti is the poverty problem that it is. No one is addressing this issue. Of course the elections were corrupted, but the people running for office in Haiti have been no shining angels either. I agree that something is wrong with this story but it goes far deeper than a liberal/conservative or FOX/CBS type of story. Instead of complaining I suggest that all interested parties contribute the missing information. Since the writers have enough interest to write their comments on this subject - then perhaps they have enough interest to do the research to find the answers as well. After all, that is what everyone else is trying to do on Wikipedia: contribute knowledge. MPLX/MH 17:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

When you have to turn to the internet for proof...

...you're hurting. There is internet "proof" about alien abductions, too.

There is no credible evidence to back up your U.S. conspiracy claims. I think this article is fine.

Agreed. Too much emphasis has been placed on a possible U.S. kidnapping of Aristide. Aristide's claims lacked credibility and hence, his claims should not receive the amount of consideration they have been given in the article.

Um, sir, madam, whoever you may be, you may not have been around most encyclopedias (in book or computer form) enough to realize that the name of the game behind the construction of any article is not to provide "proof" or justification of anything for anyone. Rather, its called "covering your asses", or "bases", by providing as much information as is feasible or possible about a certain subject. If anyone feels that this article needs to be expanded to include as much info as is being/has been in circulation on Haiti and anything about Haiti, then let it be so. I don't care if its conspiracy claims or the latest appetite for destruction. User:Toussaint 2:24 PM (EST), 7/19/05

There is an article about the 2004 rebellion that goes into great length about the possibility of U.S. involvement in pushing Aristide out. I don't think it's necessary to bring this up in the main Haiti article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haiti_Rebellion

I agree with the fact that the full load of encyclopedic details about the coup should be placed in a separate article, no question about that. However, what I disagree with is the belief that the so-called "US conspiracy claims" have no basis. While the "claims", like most other things encyclopedic, should be mentioned (and, in an article that comes closer to home to the subject, expounded and detailed) on an all-facets-of-the-diamond basis (that is, not taking any particular or even general thing as either a truth or lie, but simply as is and nothing else), I don't think that it would be the ethical thing to make such a prejudgement about suspicions about supposed "foul play", among other such notions concerning the reasons, causes, and results of the events in discussion. Ruling anything out concerning the coup, the period prior, and the results afterward, would, in my meaningless opinion, be absolutely detrimental to the provision of referential information on Haiti and all other articles which may link to it. --Toussaint 10:45 PM, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

The U.S.

The U.S.'s own account of the Occupation

The following account of the U.S. Occupation is from the official version written by the U.S. Army for the Library of Congress. Thus, it has an obvious "pro-US bias", yet it is nevertheless much more of an indictment of the American Occupation of Haiti than this pathetic Wiki Article! Obviously, if you read sources written from the Haitian perspective, you get an even better idea of what a crushing blow this was to Haitian independence.

---

THE UNITED STATES OCCUPATION, 1915-34

Representatives from the United States wielded veto power over all governmental decisions in Haiti, and Marine Corps commanders served as administrators in the provinces. Local institutions, however, continued to be run by Haitians, as was required under policies put in place during the presidency of Woodrow Wilson. In line with these policies, Admiral William Caperton, the initial commander of United States forces, instructed Bobo to refrain from offering himself to the legislature as a presidential candidate. Philippe Sudre Dartiguenave, the mulatto president of the Senate, agreed to accept the presidency of Haiti after several other candidates had refused on principle.

With a figurehead installed in the National Palace and other institutions maintained in form if not in function, Caperton declared martial law, a condition that persisted until 1929. A treaty passed by the Haitian legislature in November 1915 granted further authority to the United States. The treaty allowed Washington to assume complete control of Haiti's finances, and it gave the United States sole authority over the appointment of advisers and receivers. The treaty also gave the United States responsibility for establishing and running public-health and public-works programs and for supervising routine governmental affairs. The treaty also established the Gendarmerie d'Haïti (Haitian Constabulary), a step later replicated in the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua. The Gendarmerie was Haiti's first professional military force, and it was eventually to play an important political role in the country. In 1917 President Dartiguenave dissolved the legislature after its members refused to approve a constitution purportedly authored by United States assistant secretary of the navy Franklin D. Roosevelt. A referendum subsequently approved the new constitution (by a vote of 98,225 to 768), however, in 1918. Generally a liberal document, the constitution allowed foreigners to purchase land. Dessalines had forbidden land ownership by foreigners, and since 1804 most Haitians had viewed foreign ownership as anathema.

The occupation by the United States had several effects on Haiti. An early period of unrest culminated in a 1918 rebellion by up to 40,000 former cacos and other disgruntled people. The scale of the uprising overwhelmed the Gendarmerie, but marine reinforcements helped put down the revolt at the estimated cost of 2,000 Haitian lives. Thereafter, order prevailed to a degree that most Haitians had never witnessed. The order, however, was imposed largely by white foreigners with deep-seated racial prejudices and a disdain for the notion of self-determination by inhabitants of less-developed nations. These attitudes particularly dismayed the mulatto elite, who had heretofore believed in their innate superiority over the black masses. The whites from North America, however, did not distinguish among Haitians, regardless of their skin tone, level of education, or sophistication. This intolerance caused indignation, resentment, and eventually a racial pride that was reflected in the work of a new generation of Haitian historians, ethnologists, writers, artists, and others, many of whom later became active in politics and government. Still, as Haitians united in their reaction to the racism of the occupying forces, the mulatto elite managed to dominate the country's bureaucracy and to strengthen its role in national affairs.

The occupation had several positive aspects. It greatly improved Haiti's infrastructure. Roads were improved and expanded. Almost all roads, however, led to Port-au-Prince, resulting in a gradual concentration of economic activity in the capital. Bridges went up throughout the country; a telephone system began to function; several towns gained access to clean water; and a construction boom (in some cases employing forced labor) helped restore wharves, lighthouses, schools, and hospitals. Public health improved, partially because of United States-directed campaigns against malaria and yaws (a crippling disease caused by a spirochete). Sound fiscal management kept Haiti current on its foreign-debt payments at a time when default among Latin American nations was common. By that time, United States banks were Haiti's main creditors, an important incentive for Haiti to make timely payments.

In 1922 Louis Borno replaced Dartiguenave, who was forced out of office for temporizing over the approval of a debtconsolidation loan. Borno ruled without the benefit of a legislature (dissolved in 1917 under Dartiguenave) until elections were again permitted in 1930. The legislature, after several ballots, elected mulatto Sténio Vincent to the presidency.

The occupation of Haiti continued after World War I, despite the embarrassment that it caused Woodrow Wilson at the Paris peace conference in 1919 and the scrutiny of a congressional inquiry in 1922. By 1930 President Herbert Hoover had become concerned about the effects of the occupation, particularly after a December 1929 incident in Les Cayes in which marines killed at least ten Haitian peasants during a march to protest local economic conditions. Hoover appointed two commissions to study the situation. A former governor general of the Philippines, W. Cameron Forbes, headed the more prominent of the two. The Forbes Commission praised the material improvements that the United States administration had wrought, but it criticized the exclusion of Haitians from positions of real authority in the government and the constabulary, which had come to be known as the Garde d'Haïti. In more general terms, the commission further asserted that "the social forces that created [instability] still remain--poverty, ignorance, and the lack of a tradition or desire for orderly free government."

The Hoover administration did not implement fully the recommendations of the Forbes Commission, but United States withdrawal was well under way by 1932, when Hoover lost the presidency to Roosevelt, the presumed author of the most recent Haitian constitution. On a visit to Cap Haïtien in July 1934, Roosevelt reaffirmed an August 1933 disengagement agreement. The last contingent of marines departed in mid-August, after a formal transfer of authority to the Garde. As in other countries occupied by the United States in the early twentieth century, the local military was often the only cohesive and effective institution left in the wake of withdrawal.

Source: U.S. Library of Congress

"The haiti page really needs to be updated to deal with the post Aristide occupation by the U.N. and the current human rights abuses as well as the repression and murder of activist civilians and Aristide supporters by the death squads and Canadian trained police force. There is information all over the internet and some smaller newspapers and radio stations about this although the mainstream corporate controlled press is on lockdown on the subject; especially in the three imperial countries that backed and helped support the coup against Aristide (U.S., France, Canada) 205.250.145.30

HSKI: Haitian Death Squads and Child Murders

My name is Michael Brewer, RN, an American who lives in Port au Prince, Haiti, where I have an organization and home for street kids and runaway restavek slave children. Being as intimately close to the problem of homeless children as I am, I feel I must let someone know about a very disturbing trend that has begun to surface again in Haiti.

Carloads of men referred to as "ancient military," who are actually members of the now disbanded military, as well as members of the Haitian National Police, have began patrolling the streets of Port au Prince and are indiscriminately murdering street children for no reason other than sport. These men prowl the streets of the city in groups of 6 to 10 with high-powered military assault rifles, shotguns and 9mm pistols, wearing all-black uniforms with black ski masks over their heads to conceal their identities. They justify the murders of these boys by referring to them as "vagabonds" and say that they are "cleaning the streets".

An example of the merciless slaughter of these children happened last Thursday on the 11th of November between 7:pm and 8:pm in the evening, in a well-known park located in the Petionville section of Port au Prince named Plais Bois. Many homeless boys of all ages sleep in this park at night due to lack of facilities and helping organizations available to them. We are one of the very few advocacy and residential organizations in Port au Prince that offer these boys help and refuge in times of great need. But due to critically deficient support, our capability to take more of them in on a permanent basis is very limited.

Here is what happened: At approximately 7:pm in the evening, a carload of these ex-military members, whom the people wrongly refer to as "police," drove by the park and stopped where 20 to 30 children were sleeping. The ones that were not asleep alerted the others, and they all began to run. Three were caught by the men: one 7-year old by the name of Linxson, one 12-year-old and a 15-year-old. The boys were first beaten severely. Black bags were then put over their heads and tied around their necks, and then they were shot and killed. The bodies were placed in the trunk of the car and taken away from the scene.

One week earlier, a nine-year-old named Emmanuel was running from a group of these men after he refused to come to them when they called him. They shot him in the leg with an assault rifle to stop him. Three of the men casually walked up to where the child was lying on the ground and crying. They ridiculed him, then shot him again with pistols and a shotgun, for a total of 4 more times. One of my children, a 14 year old boy named Makinzi, was murdered as he was walking down the side of the road about three weeks ago. His face was terribly scared from previous abuse suffered while sleeping on the streets before coming to our home. While sleeping, passer-bys poured flaming liquid of some sort over his face and shoulders, resulting in thick, dark scaring from third degree burns. His self-appointed executioners were heard to say that they thought he was wearing a mask, and assumed that he must be a thief.

Summary executions of these children have become almost commonplace. The children are living in fear and their already difficult existence has become comparable to an unarmed soldier in a war zone. One inspection alone of the morgue at Haitis General Hospital, yielded 4 bodies of massacred street children; one 10 and one 13 year old riddled with bullets, laying along side two other young boys who had been decapitated.

The incidents I have given as examples are just a very few of the daily murders of these children that are committed by these groups of men every day and night in every part of the city. There are "dump zones" where the decomposing bodies of little boys can be found any day of the week. I have found many. This is blatant genocide. The merciless atrocities committed on these defenseless, harmless and innocent street children go completely unnoticed, unreported, and uninvestigated.

The United Nations forces do nothing and completely ignore this crisis. There is no "real" or effective police for them to turn to due to the children's inability to "pay" for the services or protection of the police. In many cases, the police are participants in the abuse rather than protectors. I also find it very ironic that the Brazilian military forces, now constituting the bulk of the UN presence in Haiti, are from the very country so well known for the murder and abuse of street children in their own country. Their inaction and lack of concern regarding these heinous acts is not difficult to understand when viewed in that context.

An effective way must be found to put an end to this ongoing tragedy that has become an epidemic. This is no less than urban terrorism with the most vulnerable, the most innocent, and the most defenseless citizens as its targets and victims. The urgent and critical nature of this problem dictates that decisive action may be taken now if we are to prevent more children from being terrorized and slaughtered.

The terror, insecurity and misery being placed upon these children, whose lives are already far more difficult and painful than any child should be forced to endure, is now at an unprecedented level. There is no one for them to turn to for protection or help except for people like me, and organizations such as mine, who are in reality powerless to do anything real to stop this. Our support is at a point now, where we have many days we are unable to feed them more than once, or even once per day, and our efforts to improve the support for the children renders very little results so far.

Humanitarian assistance to Haiti should be expanded to allow non-profit organizations such as our, to directly apply for assistance and on-going support. The small NGOs that work on the ground, directly with the children, are the ones that suffer and have the most difficult time receiving funds and assistance to survive. It is a heartbreaking situation when a young boy comes to our gates in a panic, begging to be let in so that he may escape the dangers he is being forced to live with on the streets, and we are unable to let him in due to limited space and funding to care for him.

If anyone is interested in offering assistance with our efforts to rescue and sustain these children, any and all donations would be gratefully appreciated. 100% of your donations will go toward the medical, educational, nutritional and personal needs of these children. Any type of food assistance would also be appreciated. As support for HSKI increases, more frightened and suffering kids will be able to escape the dangers and misery of the streets and be admitted into the home.

All donations are tax deductible. Our U.S. mailing address for donation is: Haitian Street Kids, Inc. 5209 Rain Forest Drive McKinney, Texas USA 75070

Our non-profit EIN number is: Family Circle Inc. dba: Haitian Street Kids, Inc. (HSKI) No. 74-3116886

Haitian Non-Profit Authorization: STC-02671

Thank you for caring and we hope to hear from you soon. Respectfully, Michael W. Brewer, RN Haitian Street Kids, Inc.

Supporting article: http://quicksitemaker.com/members/immunenation/Pacific_News_Service_Killings.html

Map

A controversy has erupted over the choice of map for this article. The two candidates are shown here, along with any others that other Wikipedians may choose to enter. Feel free to make any comments. The lower map may also appear in the corresponding Geography article for this country. Kelisi 03:26, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I prefer the lower kelisi version, --SqueakBox 03:31, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Whoa!! This article needs some work.

I can't help but notice that this article contains nothing about the US governments role in 2004 rebellion. Like the part where the US military kidnapped Aristide TitaniumDreads 09:39, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board

I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. Guettarda 1 July 2005 04:04 (UTC)

About the Tropical Jeanne piece

Whoever added that last line *again* to the history section should know that I edited the article to include it within the context of the article. Thus, I will erase it again, and I hope that this doesn't happen again (at least in the history section). Toussaint 30 August 2005 19:00 (UTC)

Post-Aristide

What is the following sentence supposed to mean? It needs to be clarified. Perhaps to something less than a paragraph long, or, at least to have complete and sensical clauses:

The Council of Sages, which consists of the following...and, to a somewhat lesser degree, France (from whom Aristide had requested a restitution of exactly US$21,685,135,571.48, the modern-day equivalent of the 90 million gold francs {originally set at 150 million, but later reduced} which were demanded as ransom by the French government from then-President Jean-Pierre Boyer). Fireworks 20:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The one-sentence paragaph following that could also be split up. FireWorks 20:51, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems as if someone added their own unsubstantiated statements concerning the "terror campaign" waged by supporters of Aristide. No matter, I'll erase that due to the utter absence of quotes to substantiate such claims. Respond if there are any objections. Toussaint 02:46, 03 November 2005 (UTC)

Wording in intro

The wording here took me somewhat by surprise:

Haiti is currently in a state of anomy following United States sponsored coup d'etat and the expulsion of fradulently-elected Jean-Bertrand Aristide on February 29, 2004.

There are two claims here likely to generate controversy: that the coup d'etat was backed by the U.S., and that Aristide's election was fraudulent.

I think the last should definitely read "widely regarded as fraudulent" if there's some way to do that in a non-weaselly way, since there are a nontrivial number of Aristide supporters, who would presumably contest the "fraudulent" characterization.

As for the U.S.-backing, I'm less sure. My interpretation is certainly that the coup was U.S.-backed, and I would be comfortable saying that unequivocally as long as there is no official denial of support by the U.S. government. --Saforrest 16:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The coup was backed quite explicitly by the governments of Canada, France, and the U.S. They sent money and support to right-wing opposition groups within Haiti in an effort to destabalize the country, thereby providing the pretext to invade under the guise of "humanitarian intervention".

When Aristide and Port Au Prince were under siege, it was really only a core group of between three and six hundred thugs, many of whom were former members of Davalier's death squads, who were surrounding Aristide and the government. If the U.S. had really wanted to restore order and "stabalize" the situation, they could have easily repelled the attack against the Aristide government. They didn't.

What the U.S. did do was actively prevent Aristide's security team from coming to his aid.

With regards to whether Aristide was democratically elected, Jimmy Carter's organization (can't remember the name of it) declared the elections fair, and the governments of the three countries in question all had relations with, and regarded the Aristide government as legitimate...up until they got rid of him, of course.

I should also say that Caricom regards the installed interim government of Florida resident Gerard Latortue to be illegitamate. Hugo Chavez has also been quite vocal about the ongoing legitimacy of Aristide's government.

We need only to look at what has happened since Aristide's overthrow to see that the aims of the three imperial countries had nothing to do with restoring democracy. There has been an unceasing campaign of violence and imprisonment targetted against any Haitians (and not just Aristide supporters) who refuse to accept the orchestrated overthrow of their government by outside interests.

Canada, through the R.C.M.P., trained the Hatian National Police in the art of suppresing popular dissent; this has resulted in possibly hundreds of murders and thousands of imprisonments, all directed against the poor and supporters of the Lavalas party. There have been numerous masacres of unarmed protesters, as well as targeted killings of community activists.

There's also the fate of Father Gerard Jean-Juste, kept in prison without charge for months on end, mainly because he opposes the occupation.

Consider also the repugnant spectacle of Canada's Prime Minister, Paul Martin, making an official trip to Haiti in order to show his support for La tortue. This was the first ever visit to Haiti by a Canadian Prime Minister, and it was done to prop up a government that has absolutely NO popular support amongst the Haitian people. 207.6.31.119 11:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

I dispute the sentence "Haiti is currently in a state of anomie following an uprising which resulted in the expulsion of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide on February 29, 2004"

I think the words Coup d'etat, however painful, cannot be removed from this article. Aristide himself says he was kidnapped. By Wikipedia's own Jean-Bertrand Aristide article, the National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haiti (FLRN) overthrew the country qualifies as a coup d'etat according to that Wikipedia article on that subject. Jesse Jackson asked the republican dominated Congress to investigate whether the CIA had a role in the two-week rebellion that led to Aristide's exile. Nothing ever came of it. The FLRN is just a new name for the former FRAPH group, which was a CIA financed and trained organization. see 2004 Haiti rebellion [1][2]. So the US-led coup d'etat part is crystal clear. I reverted this sentence to reflect the ugly truth.

I also dispute the second part of the sentence as complete POV. "he had been re-elected in 2000 in an election dismissed by many (including the OAS) as fraudulent."

Aristide was elected fairly. He won by a landslide. The dispute is over a few of the parlimentary seats. Note that the OAS in itself is not a majority. Second note that all the references given do not apply to the second sentence. The first reference given [4] is a picture of the invasion. The second reference given [5] is my original reference backing the claim it was a Coup D'etat. The third reference given [6] is my original reference for Aristide claiming he was kidnapped and did not voluntarely leave Haiti. This sentence should be removed since it's not correct.

The point of view that is being pushed here hides the fact that the 2004 invasion of Haiti was a US-led coup d'etat of a democratically elected government. It's the ugly truth about the things our government does. If you don't like it, vote them out. Kgrr 15:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

PS one day befor the coup, President Bush gave this statement: His failure to adhere to democratic principles has contributed to the deep polarization and violent unrest that we are witnessing in Haiti today... His own actions have called into question his fitness to continue to govern Haiti. We urge him to examine his position carefully, to accept responsibility, and to act in the best interests of the people of Haiti

Kgrr 16:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

---

First off, there are certain things I agree with here and some that I disagree with so I think it is workable. I'll try to answer you point by point.

First off, I disagree with the sentence "i dispute the sentence "Haiti is currently in a state of anomie following an uprising which resulted in the expulsion of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide on February 29, 2004" but for different reasons. Haiti is not in a state of "anomie" as there is a rule of law, whether it is a good one or not. It is in a state of "transition" would be more appropriate and upon consensus I would be glad to change that. As for your next point:

Jesse Jackson asked the republican dominated Congress to investigate whether the CIA had a role in the two-week rebellion that led to Aristide's exile. Nothing ever came of it. The FLRN is just a new name for the former FRAPH group, which was a CIA financed and trained organization. see 2004 Haiti rebellion [3][4]. So the US-led coup d'etat part is crystal clear. I reverted this sentence to reflect the ugly truth.

First off, those types of sources would never be accepted on any wikipedia article, they are made by activist organizations. You have a right to believe them but they do not belong on a neutral point of view encyclopedic article. Secondly, congress not investigating the CIA involvement in the rebellion is not evidence that they were involved. That's actually a negative premise, affirmative conclusion logical fallacy.

Third, and most important, is that this is a general article about Haiti. The rebellion of 2004 is a very small portion of everything that is Haiti (remember Haiti covers more than just history, it covers culture, geography, economy, etc). So it's place on the opening paragraph of a general Haiti topic is unnecessary. The rebellion deserves a place, since it is a recent event and currently important, but whether or not the U.S. had some involvement isn't important for this article. It is important for the 2004 Haiti rebellion article but I think they've mostly worked it out there.

Next is your point about Aristide's election...

I also dispute the second part of the sentence as complete POV. "he had been re-elected in 2000 in an election dismissed by many (including the OAS) as fraudulent."

You're right, it was the parlimentary elections that are disputed. I will change this pending we work out the other problems.

So, pending we can work this out, I will gladly change the article to reflect the following.....

• Haiti is in a stage of political transition from one democratic regime to another democratic regime following a rebellion that deposed him.
• The parlimentary elections were the disputed elections, not the presidential.

I think that would make for a good NPOV to fix the problems that you have found without going to far in the other direction. --MateoP 00:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Clean Up

This article really needs to be updated and cleaned up. The current election dates are wrong (although I'm not sure exactly what all of the new ones are yet). The categories describing the current political situation and the last years of Aristide's presidency are not very clear and the information is not as well organized as it could be.

I added a reference to Gérard Jean Juste.

Xoliswa 00:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hai Ti?

Somehow I don't think that the Namibian comic strip is well-known enough for a disambig link from this page. Just my opinion, obviously--is there anyone else with thoughts on this? billybobfred 19:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

it has a different spelling. No need for disambig.Kgrr 14:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Flag

Shouldn't the flag with the emblem be used instead of the civil flag? Chanheigeorge 23:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Good find, I fixed it. --MateoP 00:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

History Section "1.7 Post-Aristide"

It seems that most of History section 1.7 ought to be moved to the 2006 Elections page. The main page on Haiti is quite long. --Cfravien 02:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

You're right, the main Haiti page is quite a mess. The history section should be greatly reduced. But I highly suggest not just chopping stuff out, i'm sure a lot of people worked hard writing that. We should compare it to the History of Haiti article and add stuff there that is only posted here (a lot of people come here and then add stuff without noticing the other articles). As for the Haitian elections, 2006, it is in pretty good order, but of course could always use more information. I think it mainly needs a "background" section about what led up to the need for new elections, so a lot of material here can be used for that.

Hi MateoP ... first, on behalf of the community, thank you for all of the work you put into this page. Secondly, I will be off the month of January, so I can work on the page. I think much of it is redundant and could be organized differently, but I don't want to step on any toes. Once I start working on it, I will post whatever changes I make on the Talk Page. 00:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Haitian (disambiguation)

THis link does not work. It just comes back to this page.

1937 Massacre of 18,000 Haitians

Does anyone know why there is no mention of the 1937 Massacre? I am willing to research (or compile the available information) and write a page. --Cfravien 02:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to the massacre of Haitian immigrants by Dictator Trujillo, correct? It's on my to do list. Right now I'm concentrating on maintain and adding to the 2006 elections article. I'm also working in my part time on an article about U.S. reactions to the Haitian revolution. So it might be a while between I can get to the massacre, though it's obviously an important event. Here's one thing I have already downloaded about it. It's a journal article called "A World Destroyed, A Nation Imposed: The 1937 Haitian Massacre in the Dominican Republic" by an author named Richard Lee Turits. I downloaded it off of the Project Muse database. 47 pages long and so I presume fairly detailed. If you're interested in doing research, that's probably a good place to look. --MateoP 05:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to the massacre by Trujillo. I will work on an article about the massacre. I also tried to download the article "A World Destroyed" but you need a username and password. 00:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

la:Haitia

The article la:Haitia in the Latin Wikipedia has been startet. You are welcomed. ;-) --Roland2 12:19, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

POV

This article seems to have definite POV problems. Whether Aristide was forcibly removed from power is disputed. Also, there's a part where it says something like "seemingly under the influence of Washington" regarding an action of the post-Artistide government, suggesting that the government is a puppet of the US without even citing a source. 71.106.36.231 07:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)