Talk:Hainan Island incident

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (add comments)
More information about this article...

Contents

[edit] Merge?

Merge discussion at Talk:Letter of the two sorries.RJASE1 17:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The article is short enough, and compliments the other article. I would go ahead and do it. // 3R1C 12:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, merge away. both are highly related and belong together. --MarsRover 08:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I concur, and seeing as this discussion is nearly one month old with no dissent, and the two articles contain identical content, I decided to be bold and have gone ahead and merged them. --Nothlit 06:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] collision theory

Supersonic fighters (such as the J-8) tend to be unstable at low speeds. Pilots of recon planes are allegedly known to slow down to make it more difficult for fighters to tail them.

This doesn't explain how the front of the EP-3 got damaged though.

I am just shocked to see how a propeller can chop a J-8 in half. How suck can a J-8 be?! TheAsianGURU 17:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The skin of airplanes are generally made of a lightweight material. Propellers are not. Here is an example of an airplane propeller striking another airplane. I don't think this aircraft would fly very well after that impact and this picture shows what happened at IDLE speed of a lower performance aircraft. The prop of an EP-3 could easily chop into any fighter (American OR Chinese) and cause catastophic damage that could lead to the aircraft disintegrating or breaking apart. — BQZip01 — talk 17:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As for the front of the plane, I have been involved in a car accident where pretty much the same thing happened. A semi-truck going faster than us struck us on the left near the rear of the vehicle causing us to spin to the left. The front of our vehicle was then hit by the front of the truck.
Had this happened in an airplane and the nose was struck (a nose designed to be removed for maintenance), it very easily could have sheared off the nosecone.
Note that a VERY similar accident happened to the XB-70 with similar consequences. — BQZip01 — talk 17:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As to how the front of the EP-3 got damaged: sadly, the one man who saw it first hand was Wei's wingman, and it's unlikely the Chinese military will ever let him say in public exactly what he saw. swain 20:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location of collision

If you have a citation about some unknown treaty that backs up the Chinese assertion that the EP-3 was in Chinese airspace, please show us. Otherwise, these pointless edits will continue to be reverted and/or the article protected from marauding anonymous IPs. — BQZip01 — talk 05:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi. "unknown treaty"??!! How about common sense?! If you look at the map of Hainan Island. 70 Miles in any direction would result in the South China Sea, which is Chinese airspace. Also, in the "Letter of 2 Sorries" it stated --- "...they also apologized for entering Chinese airspace and performing the emergency landing without authorization..." Notice: The letter stated --- not just performing the landing, but also entering the airspace. Reconnaissance is fine, but by saying it was in International airspace, we were just kidding ourselves. TheAsianGURU 05:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)TheAsianGURU
Sorry. In addition, some claimed that the EP-3 was in Chinese "Territorial Airspace" which can be considered "International Airspace" in some cases. Sure, but according to the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), its Article 56, 58 and 301. Military crafts are not allowed to by pass Territorial Airspace freely. The EP-3 was 100% a military aircraft, it even has a Navy Call-Sign. Therefore, its claim of being in "International Airspace" does not stand. Thank you for your time. TheAsianGURU 06:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)TheAsianGURU

Quoting from Chinese board U.S. plane, take gear

A Chinese foreign ministry spokesman said China had every right to examine the incident because the U.S. spy plane "rammed a Chinese plane in the air," then entered Chinese air space without permission and landed on a Chinese airport.

China has also accused the U.S. EP-3E plane of veering into one of two F-8 fighters in the interception mission 60 miles south of Hainan in international air space.

There is no dispute, not even by the Chinese government, that the incident occurred over international waters.

swain 18:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
"There is no dispute, not even by the Chinese government, that the incident occurred over international waters."
Sure, you got that from CNN & I have read that many times. Thank you.
Please visit the followings --- The Offical Chinese State Run TV Station CCTV. (All in Chinese) They paint a very different picture than CNN.
http://www.cctv.com/news/special/zt1/crash/more1.html
http://www.cctv.com/news/special/zt1/crash/3872.html
http://www.cctv.com/news/special/zt1/crash/3871.html
http://www.cctv.com/news/special/zt1/crash/3878.html
Of course there is dispute on the location. I do start to see your point and I will no longer change it to "Chinese airspace." However, this statment would not stand in China. I will have to edit it in the future with reflections on the Chinese side of view. (Along with the current article which I mostly agree also.)
Thank you for your time. TheAsianGURU 21:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)TheAsianGURU
Please realize that the Chinese government (like many governments) is often two faced. They claim one things to the rest of the world and tell their people something else on their official publications/broadcasts. This is not publicized in the rest of the world because they don't want to tarnish their image (this is especially a problem in Asian countries where saving face is often more important than the truth). This is simply a cultural difference, not a fault.
AsianGURU, I would LOVE to have a discussion here with you to understand the Chinese point of view (both the official and popular POV) and would like to see what we can do to incorporate these views into the article.
As for, "this statment (sic) would not stand in China," please elaborate!!! :-) — BQZip01 — talk 04:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As of the general pubic, the Chinese people believe, of course, the “Chinese version” of the story. Because EP-3 was a military aircraft, and it was clearly conducting reconnaissance on China, the general pubic was more concern of the national pride issue rather than Wei. This is the residue of --- NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade from 99. Also, according to the Chinese Media – The Chinese government asked for $1M USD to pay to Wei’s family and the Department of State was agreed to pay less than $35,000 USD, which created another storm. TheAsianGURU 21:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Please add that to the aftermath. The demand for payment and refusal to allow the aircraft to be flown out are both instances of the Chinese trying to save face (maximize their position) while demonizing the USA (the reverse is true of the US except we only fault the pilot, not blame him for everything). Considering the freedom of speech that the US enjoys, all of the Americans seem to support the American side of the story, even though they are free to say anything. The other pilot is either being forced not to say anything or chooses not to say anything. This is all about saving face for himself, his comrade, his superiors, and his country. If China would allow a full and open inquiry (the Navy requested an interview from the Wei's wingman, but China refused), we may be able to determine the complete causes of the incident and prevent future problems. But, since only one side of the story is openly discussed with all of the witnesses, most in the US are forced to conclude the US is telling the truth and China is distorting the facts. How else can the US come to another reasonable conclusion? — BQZip01 — talk 23:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't find any English sites that would back up the "seeking money for damage & suffering" claim so I will not add that into "aftermath." TheAsianGURU 05:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solution

TheAsianGURU: I have no problems at all if this article reflects both points of view: the Chinese Daily wrote that the collision occurred in Chinese airspace, and the US plane intentionally rammed the Chinese fighter; but the article has to also reflect what the US was told by the Chinese foreign ministry spokesman, what the US pilot claimed, what the US government claimed, etc. It's better to get *all* the facts of the matter out instead of a never ending edit war. swain 04:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Concur — BQZip01 — talk 23:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Territorial Waters?

I'm trying, via WP, to figure out what the airspace really is where the EP-3 was operating. Going by Territorial waters, it was in the exclusive economic zone. AFAICT, the same rules apply to aircraft as to sea vessels, but admittedly I'm guessing. swain 21:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, it's quite hard to find out where the 2 planes ran into each other. I have heard many different locations. Good luck tho, let us know what you got. TheAsianGURU 06:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV and citations

This article implies, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that the 'Chinese Version' of the story is more accepted by Chinese people because of 'national pride' or 'anti-American sentiment', but it fails to cite any sources to prove that. Furthermore, it fails to mention the core disputations such as whether the crash happened in the Exclusive Economic Zone, and how United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea dictates certain rights to either party in this case. For this I found at the current state, the article is slightly POV and needs citations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.1.219 (talk) 12:16, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

I have posted full length links from the CCTV of China in the "Location of collision." So stop coming here & edit out of what "YOU" think. Also, read before you post. TheAsianGURU 16:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Added 6 links to support the article. Tag removed. TheAsianGURU 17:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been purusing the New York Times archives, since they are now free; found this very interesting take on how the Chinese people viewed Wang's death and subsequent "martyrdom":

"Many Chinese were moved by the death of Mr. Wang, who was apparently a spirited and fearless airman, and by the suffering of his wife and young son. But as the hyperbole has soared, many people say they have just tuned it out -- a remarkable change from the Communist Party's heyday when everyone paid heed to mass campaigns. This week, some Chinese even joked privately that the military had probably located Mr. Wang soon after the collision over the South China Sea and spirited him away for a change of identity, to permit the creation of a badly needed national hero."

Here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04E1D61239F934A15757C0A9679C8B63 swain 02:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"During one such incident, Wang is shown approaching so close that his email address could be clearly read from a sign that he had been holding up." - Is this accurate? 68.62.163.75 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It is. Video was shown on CNN, FoxNews, etc. — BQZip01 — talk 06:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Found a reference: "The Chinese pilot whose F-8 collided with an American spy plane six days ago had flown so close to American aircraft in recent months that he was photographed clearly. In one picture, he was seen holding a white paper with his e-mail address written on it." http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E4DE123EF935A35757C0A9679C8B63&scp=2&sq=hainan+collision+e-mail&st=nyt swain (talk) 17:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Destruction of equipment

Should I ever recover my copy of the pilot's book, I can add a quote or two on how the equipment was destroyed. He wrote that all the destruction of sensitive equipment occurred before the plane landed; he gives a detailed account of the smashing and ejecting of laptops while still airborn. For that matter, his account of the collision would make the article more interesting as well. swain 19:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restore back to aug 22nd version

Due to all the POV edits, the version is switched back to aug 22nd version. For those “erasers,” the “aftermath section” was agreed and discussed here. The Chinese sources are from the official Chinese Media CCTV, they are crucial for showing the Chinese POV of the incident in the “aftermath section.” (if you don’t know what CCTV is, then educate yourself first before coming on here and wipe out everything.) TheAsianGURU 18:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It was agreed upon only by yourself. Your personal consensus does not overrule NPOV and reliable sourcing. Also, snide comments like your last sentence are not helpful. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 18:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you have read the discussion above --- "Location of collision" and people agreed to put those up. You didn't understand CCTVs were and the importance of those in the reflection of "aftermath section." Sure, they are not in English, but I have translated all the titles. You erased everything that before you came on to this article today, that's what you called using your "admin power"? I hadn't added anything since Aug 22nd and I have no POVs in this issue, I have been trying to add that and let everybody know that the Chinese have a very different take of this issue. I am bring it back to 22nd of Aug again. Somebody better lock it, because I don't agree with your edits. TheAsianGURU 18:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
PS, I also stand by my statement that you should educate yourself on what CCTV is and its importance in this matter. TheAsianGURU 18:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I was one of those people and I see no problem with including the Chinese point of view (it is still neutral if both sides are discussed), as much as I disagree with it and I think it is simple propaganda. — BQZip01 — talk 22:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
BTW, CCTV could be a bit ambiguous...I thought it might be Closed-Circuit TV, at first. — BQZip01 — talk 01:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


So I received this message in my talk section today.

Please stop. If you continue to make edits that introduce unsourced and/or poorly sourced material in order to justify a nonneutral POV, you will be blocked from editing. This is not a content dispute: this is enforcement of policy. Any material that is unsourced, or sourced unreliably may be removed at any time, per our standards at WP:V. Let this be your warning now...if you reinsert the material again, the page will be protected and/or you will be blocked from editing. 00:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane.

Now I am forced to not to change anymore or I will be blocked. How can this guy be an admin?!?! I am the only person here that can read Chinese, that can translate Chinese here on this page. (based on my believe, if I miss anybody, i m sorry.) I agree with people that the CCTV stuff were Chinese propaganda, and that's why they are rightfully belong to "Aftermath section" to reflect the what Chinese people feel towards this issue. There was also another link that was from PBS, is that NOT in English either?! Where can I report this? It's NOT a POV, it's NOT "sourced unreliably," just because you don't understand what it is doesn't mean it's unreliable. I wrote something you didn't like and you have to change it forcefully. This is NOT an enforcement of rules, this is abuse power by an admin. You bet I will challenge this. TheAsianGURU 03:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

From this point of view, this does appear to be an abuse of an admin. He is stating a fact of how the Chinese viewed the situation in their state-sponsored (read: state-run) media and how this has affected relations with the United States. It certainly IS a valid point. Unless you have an English version of the broadcast, it will be impossible to get another source.
Further, quoting from WP:CITE#Why sources should be cited, "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it." (emphasis added) — BQZip01 — talk 03:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

And in this case, the chinese source is simply not appropriate, and not reliable. If the chinese view is accurate, get CNN or BBC to support it. I'll be waiting. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 13:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I still don’t think you understand why I added the CCTV media coverage links here. Let me say it 1 more time --- I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE CHINESE PROPAGANDA and I am NOT here to promote their agendas. I added them because I wanted to put in that the Chinese general public has a VERY different POV towards this issue than we do. And here on wiki, we want to include that onto the English page of the wiki to reflect that “it’s a very different issue depending on who you ask when you talk to people in a pub in China.” That’s all. TheAsianGURU 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
You do not have any sort of right to push the chinese POV on this article. Furthermore, you alone do not speak for the chinese people. Maybe capital letters will help. YOU NEED A RELIABLE SOURCE THAT SAYS THE CHINESE PEOPLE THINK A CERTAIN WAY. Anything less is weasel words, and POV pushing. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Wiki uses BBC/CNN/MSNBC & all other western medias to show western POVs, why can't the Chinese CCTV be added here to show Chinese POV? In fact, CCTV believes that BBC/CNN/MSNBC are all "PROPAGANDAs." I think capital letters letters will help also --- CHINESE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN CCTV! THEY DON'T GET CNN OR BBC! I don't think they are (cctv) reporting right, they are bias and not turthful, but hey, the Chinese people believe them, because they don't get anything else. TheAsianGURU 17:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Please look at the sentences that I removed: However, it was rumored that Lieutenant Osborn had been ordered to ditch the aircraft, that he had disobeyed orders and performed an emergency landing instead, and left the Navy a year after the incident.[citation needed] This sentence was unsubstantiated rumor, and cannot be allowed under WP:V and WP:RS

I didn't write that, plus it has no source, you can remove it. TheAsianGURU 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


As for the Chinese general public, most believe the “Chinese version” of the story. "Most people" is a weasel word, which we do not allow Because the EP-3 is a military aircraft, and it was clearly conducting reconnaissance on China, the general public was more concerned with the issue of national pride. There is nothing to indicate that the plane was "clearly conducting reconnaissance" on China. That's simply the unsourced POV of the Chinese government.

Yes, I wrote this. You could have removed "on China" and I would have no problem with your action. Yes, it's a POV of Chinese government and in order to prove that --- i had the CCTV links with translation of the titles. The Chinese government used CCTV to spread their messages and created hates towards Americans. I was there back in 2001, and I saw those “anti Imperial Americanism” demonstrations with my own eyes. That’s why we should include that in here. TheAsianGURU 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what you've seen with your own eyes. WP:NOR states "No Original Research". You admit above that you're trying to push a POV on the article. You admit on my talk page that it's an unreliable source. You have yet to come up with a reason that fits policy as to why the links are ACCEPTABLE to be included.⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Push what? How many times I have to say that they are NOT my POVs, I want them to be added for the sick of Chinese people, for everybody else to know that "oh, the Chinese don't think like the way we do, because they watch CCTV all the time."TheAsianGURU 17:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, all of the sources are in Chinese, so we can't even verify if the sources actually reflect what is in the article. And even if it DID reflect what was in the article, we cannot use it because it is propaganda from an unreliable source.

I can. In fact, here on wiki, I am a member of WikiProject China. Or if you want, you can get other Chinese speaking wiki members here to verify on what I translated. Again, it's NOT unreliable, it's just to prove that Chinese POV is different from us.TheAsianGURU 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
It IS unreliable, and you say so yourself right here. This is not your battleground to prove a WP:POINT. Nor does being a Wikiproject China member give you any special privilege to violate our NPOV and Reliable Source policies. There is a reason we have a guideline that says that sources on the english wikipedia project need to be in english. It's been quoted to you above.⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Links again....zzzz....I have never said that they are reliable. Also, since when I said I am a member of WikiProject China I get privilege??? I was just suggesting that you can ask other members to translate or verify what I translated. TheAsianGURU 17:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

These sentences violate multiple policies: NPOV, RS, UNDUE, etc. Just because you want them in MrASIANGuru, doesn't mean that it is acceptable to let them in. The reason I threatened to protect the article has nothing to do with the content of the article, it has everything to do with the policy violation in the article. We simply do not allow POV pushing on this project, and you obviously have an axe to grind here. Grind it elsewhere. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 13:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You removed the whole things without even coming onto the talk page to dicuessed first. I bet anybody else would also undo your edit in no time. TheAsianGURU 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Policy violations do not need to be discussed. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added in a compromise sentence, that elucidates the Chinese view (actually duplicates, since the chinese view is listed multiple times at the top of the page.) This should be over and resolved now. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 14:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

One setence doesn't cut it. I would say we need more. I will think about the wordings and post it here first. TheAsianGURU 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I added a little more to it, talking about the collision in addition to the location. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 03:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop. Just stop. On my user talk page, you yourself admitted that the source is not reliable. The very very simple fact is that the CCTV source is NOT reliable, and therefore CANNOT be admitted. End of story, full stop. If you can find a RELIABLE source saying the same thing, things would be different. If the BBC or CNN says "The chinese people think this", then you can enter it.⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Admitted???? Of What???? Since when I said the source was reliable???? You don't need to post the link here, I have always been saying that the CCTV source is NOT reliable (even way before you discovered this page). The key here is NOT to cite CCTV as a "reliable source" (which I have been saying that all my life, you can check all the edit history you want, even on the talk page.) but to use it to show that the Chinese people are influenced by the propaganda and their POV is very different from everybody else. That's all. No, it's NOT the end of story, it's NOT full stop. The most we can come up with is agree to disagree. But we need more in the "aftermath section," we need a 3rd person to add something that both of us can agree on. Of course I can't add anything, because I don't wanna be blocked! (Thank you for the warning letter.) TheAsianGURU 17:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solution Proposal

I welcome all people to share their ideas here to see if we can improve the “aftermath section” or any other sections so that we can solve this problem on hand. Thank you all for your inputs. TheAsianGURU 19:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the best way to phrase it is to state something like, "The Government run media in China claimed..." this adds credibility to the report's existence and its claims without lending credibility to its conclusions. The sources are fine and should be retained under these constraints. — BQZip01 — talk 19:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Seconded. I think at heart AsianGURU has the best of intentions; we're just running into some valid policy issues along the way. theAsianGURU: I thought the Chinese gov't published English language versions. While still gov't sources, might they not contribute to this somehow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wainstead (talk • contribs) 21:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As an example, Youtube may not be reliable and can be altered/used for copyright infringement/etc., BUT can be used to verify a basic claim.
Swatjester, just because you can't read it, doesn't make it any less accurate. WP policy is that you shouldn't use non-English sources if English sources are available. If they aren't, a non-English source is acceptable. — BQZip01 — talk 19:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
That is correct, but unreliable sources are never acceptable except under an extremely limited set of circumstance, none of which apply here. I agree with Wainstead above, and while I haven't looked at the links below, if they're reliable (i.e. actual news sites and not propaganda) then they should go in. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 23:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would quote them directly as examples of the Chinese government's point of view. That keeps it completely factual: here is what the gov't claimed. I don't know if that jives with WP policy or not, but it seems to me that it's a fact that the Chinese gov't reported a set of claims consistently. At the very least, the wingman's claims are very interesting and utterly contradictory to the American pilot's claims. swain 00:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah~ The People's Daily...I was thinking about TV News and forgot newspaper. Thanks for all the good work Swain. I want to point out is that there just a very very small difference between "propaganda" and "news." Take us who live in the US for example, some might think that "FoxNews" is a propaganda station, (I AM NOT MAKING A STATEMENT HERE.) some might think that "MSNBC" is a propaganda station. Because they all report with their agendas. (Again, NOT MAKING A STATEMENT.) In China, all medias are controlled by the party and they are all censored and monitored. So 99.99% of the "daily news" contain their agendas, which also means they are propagandas and they are the tools for controlling the people & keep them think the way that the party wants them to think. Therefore, The people's view = The Party's View = The Chinese GOVT's view. TheAsianGURU 16:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome! :o) And my humble opinion is FoxNews and MSNBC are motivated by profit above all else. The People's Daily is an arm of the Communist Party and the goal is to "maintain order." That's strictly my POV :o) swain 17:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You're correct, but that's what the compromise sentence already states...The difference is that the compromise sentence states that it is the Chinese GOV'T's view, whereas AsianGuru's version states it as the PEOPLE's view. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 03:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Alas, I missed your rewrite. Thanks! swain 04:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the new sentence comes short for my expection. However, I will accept because compromise is a part of democracy. BTW, as I pointed above, in China - The people's view = The Party's View = The Chinese GOVT's view. Sure there different voices in China, they are either silenced quickly or "reeducated" and their views changed. TheAsianGURU 16:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] People's Daily versions of the incident

The first link gives the copilot's account of the accident. Perhaps these would be useful sources for the Communist Party's version of the events? swain 22:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

http://english.people.com.cn/200104/06/eng20010406_67053.html (<--)

http://english.people.com.cn/200104/09/eng20010409_67258.html

http://english.people.com.cn/200104/11/eng20010411_67372.html

http://english.people.com.cn/200104/19/eng20010419_68141.html

http://english.people.com.cn/200104/26/eng20010426_68678.html

Thank you for all the links here, I think we should add this to the "external links" section. TheAsianGURU 16:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Seconded, but I wouldn't add all of them. Two perhaps. swain 17:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
How about that one? TheAsianGURU 17:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Two items out of those articles, I think, should make it into the article:
1. The award given to Wei posthumously, and:
2. His copilot's account of the collision
but I wouldn't add the latter until a comparable account by Shane is included for comparison. Then use both links as citations. (in my opinion. :o) swain 20:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Spy Plane" versus reconnaissance

The term "spy plane" seems kind of loaded to me... and today I was reading pilot Shane Osborn's interview on PBS's frontline. Quote:

So you realize it's spying?

Oh, I wouldn't call it spying. I mean, there's no hiding that EP-3. If you've seen that thing, it's not hard to figure out where that's at. We don't fly high, we don't fly fast, and we put a pretty good radar return off all those antennas and dishes hanging off of our plane.

Wikipedia currently redirects 'spy plane' to 'Surveillance aircraft'... it seems to me, at least to the military, there's a distinction. swain 00:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a significant difference and this should be changed immediately. "spy" implies a covert act. Surveillance implies that it is done legally. — BQZip01 — talk 02:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Y Done — BQZip01 — talk 02:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
gracias!!! swain 04:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with new version

  1. "spy plane" is POV unless spying has been conclusively proven (such as the case of the U-2). Recon allows for the possibility of both legal and illegal means. Rephrased accordingly.
  2. "EP-3s are highly sophisticated spy-planes that can pick up information while operating in international waters. This was probably what prompted the Chinese government to send two J-8s to investigate its actions." See above for categorization as a spy plane. The latter sentence is strictly speculation. Sentence deleted accordingly.
  3. Territorial status has always been a problem in the area. Noting this contention is central to the issue at hand. Rephrased accordingly.
  4. "miles" is preferable to "mi". Rephrased accordingly throughout. Wikilinking is certainly ok.
  5. "after several unsuccessful intercepts" is accurate as the jet made several attempts to interfere with the EP-3's flightplan. Rephrased accordingly.
  6. "as per international rules permit when a foreign plane intrudes upon a sovereign country's territory, they were taken to a Chinese military barracks where they were interrogated. By the available information, the U.S. crew was well-treated by the Chinese government while on Hainan." International rules in this case must also reflect an aircraft in distress. Since an invasion into Chinese airspace has not been established prior to the collision, this sentence is misleading as-is. Their treatment is not cited well and several were roughed up in the incident, so this is misleading. Rephrased accordingly.
  7. What the Chinese "did not have to allow" is immaterial and is based on a single POV not agreed upon by both parties to the situation. As such, the previous phrasing was adequate. Rephrased accordingly.
  8. Deleting the decorations of American aviators in favor of the Chinese side of the story is very telling regarding your POV. Rephrased accordingly.

— BQZip01 — talk 11:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Clarification: I'm not saying the U-2 is a spy plane, only that it has been used as one. Reconnaissance is a much more accurate term for an object.
Request: To the most recent IP editor, please get a screen name so we can have a meaningful discussion. — BQZip01 — talk 11:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Woo..."CounterVandalismBot"!...Good job guys. TheAsianGURU 04:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Indeed! First time I've ever seen it. swain 14:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FA Status

Does anyone want to shoot for Featured Article status with me on this article? It seems to be a relatively simple article and already pretty well-referenced. A few tweaks here and there should get it up to par, but I'm not going to do it alone. Who's with me? — BQZip01 — talk 15:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll help! What changes do you propose? swain 15:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's what the semi-automated peer review came up with:

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas.

— BQZip01 — talk 16:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
There's probably an info box we should use with the damaged EP-3E as the main image. We could also use some an image of a "normal" EP-3E. Expansion of all available info would also be pretty good (such as the history of "thumping" U.S. reconnaissance planes. I have to go for now, but you may want to read my tips for help. — BQZip01 — talk 16:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I should have a copy of Shane Osbourne's book later this week... I'd like to quote his description of the encounter and contrast it with the one by Wei's wingman as it ran in the People's Daily (one of the links I pasted on this page previously). I think we can get a really good quality description from both sides, and that will expand the article in a useful way. I'm going to search through the NYT archives for more details as well. swain 04:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)