Talk:Haida

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Contents

[edit] background

Erm... why delete so much background data? It's so vague now... Ingoman 11:31, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm assuming this is the edit you're referring to... heqs 15:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better map needed

The full-continent map doesn't really give an idea of where Haida Gwaii is, because the red coloration is such a small bit of the map; wouldn't a PacNW map do better?Skookum1 05:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

More info re: Spiritul beliefs of the Haidas, esp. as it relates to nature, would be nice.

You mean the Haida weren't distributed as far south as Mexico? Damn. There goes my claim to be descended from Moctezuma. ;]
Or, I could add the Haida are said to be "the most advanced hunter-gatherers ever". I'm N clear what "advanced" was supposed to mean (or, in fact, just where I heard it...), but if it can be subsantiated, it'd be kinda interesting, N? Trekphiler 00:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to subsantiate (sic) anything......but I was wonder if you could define the use of "ever" in the context you've used it in.
BTW I'm Norwegian. I'll challenge your Haida claim to be "the most advanced hunter-gatherers ever"; once we define "most advanced", "hunter-gatherer", and "ever" it should be a breeze. Yeah, we were hunter-gatherers too, doncha know? Wasn't everybody?Skookum1 06:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
We left the ages of Aryan supremacism for the, admitedly slightly more pathetic, ages of Minority supremacism :)
An interesting observation; history being rewritten so as to pretend to reverse it is in the same league. But if you were making a connection Norwegian<->Aryan supremacy, the Norwegians were "an oppressed minority" within Scandinavia under Swedish and Danish overlordship, and in North America Norwegian immigrants were treated and regarded "worse than the Irish". Visible minorities like to think that only they were discriminated against; it's far from true. Now apparently there's "most advanced hunter-gatherers ever" as if being a hunter-gatherer were a pissing contest that could be rated.....it's funny too, as the most efficient hunter-gatherers in the world: I thought that was the bargain-hunting housewives at Wal-Mart....Further, tribal society in Europe before the Conversion was pretty much the same kind of thing as in BC/the Pacific Northwest. That's lost on indigenous people here, and also lost on (most of) the descendants of the European tribes (Nordic, Celtic, Slavic, whomever). We didn't pick on North American indigenous people for cultural genocide; we'd already done it to our own people, and were also doing it at the time. BTW someone didn't like your comment so much taht they saw fit to delete this whole section; another case-in-point of the pathetic nature of "minority supremacism". Rather than win an argument the trick is to overwrite it, or pretend it never happened....this is going on with the current campaign to pretend "Salish Sea" is "traditional" and other concocted bits of regional history/identity. It doesn't surprise me that similar bumpf is being generated about the Haida, or any other group (anothe claim in the same field is that Indigenous people were/are "more spiritual" than others, as if genetically hard-wired for it....)Skookum1 (talk) 13:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Haida article vs Council of Haida Nation article

I'm responding to the merge request/proposal. I oppose the merger, although there's work to be done to define and delineate the appropriate content for the two articles; what seems to have been evolving across the board is a tripartite breakdown; people/culture, nation/community/government, language/culture. I haven't really looked around the Lower 48 tribes' wikipages to see how they're laid out, just going by what I've noticed in BC and WA, where there's also already been some overlap and needs to be some parameters set out as to what's in which article. Tsilhqot'in, for example, is about the people, Chilcotin language is about the language, Chilcotin is a disambig including non-First Nations usages (e.g. the region by that name) as well as the chilcotin national council or whatever they call themselves. So I think in the case of the Haida a distinction should be made between the Haida page, which should be about culture, history etc, Council of the Haida Nation for the government, Haida language for the language (prob. not written up yet so that should come out as a redlink); Kwakiutl needs a similar delineation (as Kwakawka'wakw actually refers to one of THREE Kwakiutl-culture political organizations, not simply to Kwak'wala speakers). Dropped by to add the Bringhurst cite, if it's not here already, and left my two bits.Skookum1 18:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Further to my opposition-to-merge above, I've been working on the lists of nations/groups/tribes and languages/culture and pueblos/reservations/communities, and am certain now that this article needs to be the separate language/culture article and the Council of the Haida Nation article should be the groups/nations; and I should also ask what people's opinions on separating culture/people from governments articles; e.g. with St'at'imc there's a distinction between Lillooet Tribal Council, N'quat'qua and In-SHUCK-ch Nation, which are all St'at'imc by culture and St'at'imcets by language but have separate governments and (now) consider themselves separate peoples/nations despite cultural and family links. In the case of the Haida this isn't so much of an issue, although I gather there's a separate political organization/identity among Alaska's Kaigani Haida. Anyway, there always needs to be a separate language article; how "culture" is to be split between that and the nations/groups articles I'm still not sure; language articles so far tend to be raw linguistics and need more lay examples/orientation anyway.Skookum1 20:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Tribes and Bands

Did any Canadian contribute to the original authoring of this article???

As a Canadian, it is my understanding that the word "tribe" is not used to refer to the Haida or any other First Nations people in Canada. Canada's Indian Act, R.S.C., c. I-6, s. 1. uses the word "band" to mean a First Nations group and the word "council of the band" to represent the local indigenious authority entity. If you watch any Canadian news channel, the word "band" is always used when referring to a First Nations group. Therefore I made a change in the beginning of the article and a change to the subheading "Tribal Government". This is just an important terminology issue that I like to bring up. I am sure that American wikipedians already know that Canadians use the word "Indian reserve" to mean what Americans call "Indian reservation". Furthermore, the word "First Nations" is used in Canada to mean only the full-blooded native Indians while the word "Aboriginal" is an umbrella term that Canadians use for native Indians, the mixed-blood Metis, and the Inuit (or Native Alaskans in American parlance).

I also added some important Canadian legal cases involving the Haida or one that affects the Haida in Canada.User: Alf74 11:42, June 03, 2006 (UTC)

The "tribal" wording does get used, depending on the body/organization involved; although generally you won't see "tribe"; e.g. the police force of the Lillooet Nation (Lillooet Tribal Council = St'at'imc Nation) is the Stl'atl'imx Tribal Police; but I can't think of any other "tribal" uses within that particular organization. It's all in the usage; ditto with "Indian", as in the Fraser Canyon Indian Administration, which is one of the three Nlaka'pamux groupings (the others being Nlaka'pamux Nation Tribal Council and the Nicola Valley Tribal Council).Skookum1 16:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC) PS a Tribal Council tends to be, or invariably is, a group of bands, e.g. Cariboo Tribal Council, Nicola Valley Tribal Council, Lillooet Tribal Council; but each band does not refer to itself as a "tribe", nor is "tribe" used as a noun/descriptor for the "nation" (uxwuimixw, ucwalmicw in Squamish and Lillooet repsectively), i.e. t the ethnos.Skookum1 16:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] haida exploration

the article states "one account raises a reasonable possibility that Asia was even visited by Haidas before Europeans entered the Pacific." i would like to see a cite for this, if possible. Substatique 21:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's either in Barbeau or Levi-Strauss; concerning a Japanese court record describing a visit by people, like the Ainu but not the Ainu, who came from the direction of the Kuriles/Aleutians; there are no engravings/drawings to go with the report, unfortunately. It may have been Eyak or Tlingit that were involved; somehow whichever author/anthropologist it was thought for some reason it was the Haida. Also the grave-finds of Oriental coins and even a garuda-style buddha in the Skeena could simply only be tribe-to-tribe trade, but other alternatives include "souvenirs" brought back from travel, or even something to do with the Buddhist missionary expedition to "Fusang" commissioned by the Chinese Emperor back in the 7th C. And further there's the possibility of scavenging from shipwrecks from Asian shores, which were not unknown and figure in various legendary lore up and down the Coast, as well as in fur trade/colonial-era (see Talk:Chinook for one such legend), so where such gravegoods came from is anybody's guess (in Barbeau's take on it, the resemblance of local "dirges" (adaox in Gitksan) to Mongolian Buddhist Chants was too similar to be dismissed). Jack London also writes - in his fictions - about northern natives who journey across to Asia, independent of the white man's world, and return, and describes a local native attitude that that contact had already been there (it's worth remembering that the Inuit are, for example, newcomers to the continent, and according to Barbeau so are the Eagle and Wolf Clans of the Haida and Tlinkit, although I'm sure the Haida and Tlinkit have something different to say about that, and of course Barbeau's very outdated).Skookum1 23:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
There are two other Haida-travel stories I've heard: one was I think was about the Haida and was told by a Wasco woman I met at a Chinook Jargon conference nearly a decade ago; she told a story about fair-skinned people with beards who came up the Columbia in huge boats to where the Wasco lived (then near the forks of the Columbia and Snake) and taught them sealing and other things, maybe the knowledge of iron. I remarked on this because of Frank Ney's eccentric theories that the Norse made it all the way through a then-ice-free Northwest Passage and made contact with the Pacific Northwest Coast, which is of course pretty silly. In immediate afterthought it occurred to me that these must have been and could only have been the Haida, who alone among aboriginal peoples in the region have facial hair and were also light-skinned; so much so that when the first Spanish ships contacted them the logs record that they were fairer than the crew (who were admittedly maybe Mexican mestizo); and of course who had huge sea-going canoes of a kind no longer extant (Lootaas, a modern reconstruction of the classic split-tree, steam-moulded giant cedar canoe, designed and supervised by Bill Reid, is a subcompact by comparison).Skookum1 23:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The other story is one I've heard more than once but never seen properly documented; first heard from my Grade 11/12 high school history or geography teacher c.1971, that an alliance of Haida and Kwakiutl, or Haida and Nootka, attacked Hawaii, and it was this external threat that galvanized Kamehameha I to be able to unify the archipelago (!). How they even found Hawaii is beyond me, although maybe this was after Cook's visit, which clued the Northwest Coast off that Hawaii even existed. There are apocrypal/voodoo histories that try to tie the Northwest Coast, and the Kwakiutl in particular, into Polynesian cultures - largely because of the superficial resemblance of the art styles and house decorations - but no firm links between the South Seas and the Northwest Coast are known to exist prior to European contact with both areas (which was not incidentally around the same time, as was the nature of marine exploration/voyaging). Resemblances to the Ainu are harder to dismiss, including a similar clan system and the prominence given to bears in the culture.Skookum1 23:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language classification

It seems to me that Haida does have a classification, at least as according to the corresponding article Haida language. Since I don't have a source for that, or as to why it says in the Haida article that the language is unclassifyable as yet, what edit should be made? --Pyry 00:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

the article in question says "Formerly linked to the Na-Dené languages", meaning a link was thought to exist but the consensus is "nope, it's an isolate". Maybe Haida language could be better-worded to make that clearer. Unless there's something further down the Haida language article that you're meaning?Skookum1 (talk) 13:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I am Haida.I was Born and raised here on Haida Gwaii.I am 21 years old. I will define what 'wasco' means. Wasco is a Sea Monster. I am very proud of my Haida Culture and am very egotistical in that matter. To some people a very showy person of pride is such an offence. I don't intend to come across as boistful, but it seems I do. In my opinion we try to do all we can for our small culture. So much as to recover human remains from a museum all the way from Chicago U.S.A, which were ' taken from the barrial-grounds on Haida Gwaii.'(on video-Stolen Spirits Of Haida Gwaii). We are still on the fight to keep our Haida Language alive. Elders in our communities are on the raise against time to teach all they can until their time is up. Our great ancestors have done alot for our culture. I stick to the history I know. Unfortunately, we didn't conquer. We cannot change history, but if you know any history or anything to help clarify anything on this page, don't be afraid to put it out there. Say it. Thank you

Hello Haida guy! Welcome to wikipedia. I'm OldManRivers. I'm Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwaka'wakw. I wanted to welcome you to wikipedia for many reasons, but we definitely lack in indigenous contributors and can greatly lack. I personally know very little about the Haida people and Haida culture. And of course, individuals who have a vested interest and care about their culture and want it represented as best as it can be, are always need and should be encouraged. So I highly recommend you join and create your own username and help make articles about your people better. You can contact me here. I can answer any wikipedia questions, or anything, and if not I know a few people who can help. I know I've been wanting to help the Haida article, but would greatly welcome any help. Hope you join and help around! OldManRivers (talk) 03:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rework

In a move to simplify work on articles, and easier to read, I've helped categorizes some of the pages on Indigenous, I added sub-sections and what not. I didn't delete any of the wording present on the article already, just moved it. If you want to help rewrite and add to, thanks.OldManRivers 23:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

I think photographs would make this article look much better. OldManRivers 23:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some questionable content

"Haidas were traditionally known as the naked fierce warriors and slave-traders… It's been said that the war helmets that were carved were by using special techniques. These techniques are unknown to anyone other than the Haida people as they have kept it secret for many years. Even to this day no one really knows how the Haida would carve their war helmets and how they looked." All uncited. - Jmabel | Talk 17:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think that's citable, though not sure at all where....the Haida and other peoples in the region did have armour, sort of a cuirass made of elk hide, which has a certain name in the trade argot (not a Chinook word, though, or not considered to be usually); they had helmets too but I've never heard about special designs, I've always thought more in terms of battle-masks. Armour and maybe helmets are mentioned in very early fur trade/vessel logs/journals....Skookum1 (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language classification issue

Their ancestral language is the Haida language, which has never been adequately classified by linguists because of its uniqueness.

If I'm not mistaken in the last month or two a linguistics researcher has finally pinned down connections between a Siberian language and the once-theoretical Na-Dene group, and part of the proof involved Haida as well as Tlingit and their Athabaskan neighbours; I don't know too much more, only that I heard it on CBC-Radio, normally a reliable source; I'll leave it to an ethnography/linguistics person to make the call and find the cite, though....Skookum1 (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of Haida villages

This seems like a good idea, especially because of hte multiple names for the villages and th need to index their locations etc. On canadiangenaology.net I found [http://www.canadiangenealogy.net/indians/haida_indians.htm the most complete listing of villages I've seen so far; from Swanton maybe: here's the list for refernce purposes:

  • Chaahl, on the northwest coast of Moresby Island.
  • Cumshewa, at the north entrance of Cumshewa Inlet, Moresby Island.
  • Dadens, on the south coast of North Island, fronting Parry Passage.
  • Gahlinskun, on the east coast of Graham Island, north of Cape Ball.
  • Haena, on the east end of Maude Island, Skidegate Inlet.
  • Hlielung, on the right bank of Hi-ellen River, at its mouth, Graham Island.
  • Howkan, on Long Island, Alaska, facing Dall Island.
  • Kaisun, on the northwest coast of Moresby Island.
  • Kasaan, on Skowl Arm of Kasaan Bay, east coast of Prince of Wales Island.
  • Kayung, on the east side of Masset Inlet just above Masset.
  • Kiusta, on the northwest coast of Graham Island, opposite North Island.
  • Klinkwan, on Cordova Bay, Prince of Wales Island, Alaska.
  • Kloo, at the east end of Tanoo Island.
  • Kung, at the mouth of Naden Harbor, Graham Island.
  • Kweundlas, on the west coast of Long Island, Alaska.
  • Masset, on the east coast of Masset Inlet near its entrance.
  • Naikun, Rose Spit or Nekoon, at the northeast angle of Graham Island.
  • Ninstints, on Anthony Island at the south end of Moresby Island.
  • Skedans, on a point of land which extends into Hecate Strait from the east end of Louise Island.
  • Skidegate, on the north shore of Skidegate Inlet near its entrance.
  • Sukkwan, on Cordova Bay, Alaska.
  • Tiun or Tigun, on the west coast of Graham Island south of Point Lewis.
  • Yaku, on the northwest coast of Graham Island opposite North Island.
  • Yan, on the west side of Masset Inlet near its mouth.

Small towns and camps so far as known are as follows:

  • Aiodjus, on the west side of Masset Inlet at its mouth.
  • Atana, on House or Atana Island off the east coast of Moresby Island.
  • Atanus, on the northeast coast of Hippa Island.
  • Chaahl, on the east coast of North Island.
  • Chatchini, near Kasaan, Prince of Wales Island.
  • Chets, on an island at the mouth of Tsooskahli, Masset Inlet.
  • Chuga, near Houston Stewart Channel and the town of Ninstints.
  • Chukeu, on the southwest coast of Moresby Island.
  • Dadjingits, on the north shore of Bearskin Bay, Skidegate Inlet.
  • Dahua, north of Lawn Hill at the mouth of Skidegate Inlet.
  • Daiyu, on Shingle Bay, east of Welcome Point, Moresby Island.
  • Djigogiga, legendary town on Copper Bay, Moresby Island.
  • Djigua, legendary town on the north shore of Cumshewa Inlet.
  • Djihuagits, on a creek just south of Rose Spit, Graham Island.
  • Edjao, around Edjao Hill at the east end of Masset Village.
  • Gachigundae, on the northeast shore of Alliford Bay, Moresby Island.
  • Gado, two towns:
    • (1) traditional, on the south side of De la Beche Inlet, Moresby Island;
    • (2), on the east side of Lyell Island.
  • Gaedi, on the northeast shore of a small inlet just northeast of Houston Inlet.
  • Gaesigusket, on Murchison Island at a point opposite Hot Springs Island.
  • Gaiagunkun, legendary, near Hot Springs Island.
  • Gaodjaos, on the south shore of Lina Island, Bearskin Bay.
  • Gasins, on the northwest shore of Lina Island, Bearskin Bay.
  • Gatgainans, on Hippa Island.
  • Gitinkalana, on the north shore of Masset Inlet where it expands into the inner bay.
  • Guhlga, legendary, on the north shore of Skidegate Inlet one mile above Skidgate Village.
  • Gulhlgildjing, on the south shore of Alliford Bay, Moresby Island.
  • Gwaeskun, at Gwaeskun, the northernmost point on the Queen Charlotte Islands.
  • Hagi, on or near the largest of the Bolkus Islands.
  • Heudao, on the east side of Gull Point, Prevost Island.
  • Hlagi, on an island near the east end of Houston Stewart Channel.
  • Hlakeguns, on Yagun River at the Head of Masset Inlet.
  • Hlgadun, on Moresby Island facing Anthony Island.
  • Hlgaedlin, on the south side of Tanoo Island.
  • Hlgahet, near Skidegate.
  • Hlgai, at the head of Skedans Bay.
  • Hlgaiha, north of Dead Tree Point at the entrance of Skidegate Inlet.
  • Hlgaiu, south of Dead Tree Point at the entrance of Skidegate Inlet.
  • Hlgihla-ala, north of Cape Ball, on the east shore of Graham Island.
  • Hlkia, on the outer side of Lyell Island.
  • Hluln, in Naden Harbor.
  • Hotao, legendary, on the southwest coast of Maude Island.
  • Hotdjohoas, on Lyell Island near the north end of Darwin Sound.
  • Hoyagundla, on a stream of the same name a short distance south of Cape Fife.
  • Huados, near Hlgihla-ala, north of Cape Ball.
  • Kadadjans, on the northwest end of Anthony Island.
  • Kadusgo, at the mouth of a creek of the same name on Louise Island, flowing into Cumshewa Inlet from the south.
  • Kae, on Skotsgai Bay above Skidegate.
  • Kaidju, on Hewlett Bay, east coast of Moresby Island.
  • Kaidjudal, on Moresby Island opposite Hot Springs Island.
  • Kaigani, at the southeast end of Dall Island, Alaska.
  • Kasta, legendary, on Copper Bay, Moresby Island.
  • Katana, on Louise Island.
  • Kesa, on the west coast of Graham Island.
  • Ket, on Burnaby Strait, Moresby Island.
  • Kil, on Shingle Bay, Skidegate Inlet.
  • Koagoagit, on the north shore of Bearskin Bay.
  • Koga, on McKay Harbor, Cumshewa Inlet.
  • Kogalskun, on Masset Inlet.
  • Kostunhana, a short distance east of Skidegate.
  • Kundji, 2 towns:
    • (1) legendary, on the south shore of Copper Bay, Moresby Island;
    • (2), on the west side of Prevost Island.
  • Kungga, on the south shore of Dog Island.
  • Kungielung, on the west side of the entrance to Masset Inlet.
  • Kunhalas, just inside of Cumshewa Inlet.
  • Kunkia, on the north coast of North Island.
  • Kuulana, in Naden Harbor.
  • Lanadagunga, south of Tangle Cove, Moresby Island.
  • Lanagahlkehoda, on a small island opposite, Kaisun, Moresby Island.
  • Lanahawa, 2 towns:
    • (1) on the west coast of Graham Island opposite Hippa Island;
    • (2) on the west coast of Burnaby Island south of Ket.
  • Lanahilduns, on the southwest side of Rennell Sound, Graham Island.
  • Lanaslnagai, 3 towns:
    • (1) on the east coast of Graham Island south of Cape Ball,
    • (2) on the west side of Masset Inlet where the inner expansion begins;
    • (3) on Yagun River.
  • Lanaungsuls, on Masset Inlet.
  • Nagus, in an inlet on the southwest coast of Moresby Island.
  • Sahldungkun, on the west side of Yagun River at its mouth.
  • Sakaedigialas, traditional, on or near Kuper Island.
  • Sgilgi, in an inlet on the southwest coast of Moresby Island.
  • Sindaskun, near the south end of the islands.
  • Sindatahls, near Tsoo-skahli, an inner expansion of Masset Inlet.
  • Singa, on the north side of Tasoo Harbor, west coast of Moresby Island.
  • Skae, close to Cape St. James at the south end of the Queen Charlotte Islands.
  • Skaito, on the west coast of Moresby Island near Gold Harbor.
  • Skaos, at the entrance of Naden Harbor.
  • Skena, legendary, just south of Sand Spit Point, Moresby Island.
  • Skudus, on the north side of Lyell Island.
  • Stlindagwai, in an inlet on the west coast of Moresby Island.
  • Stunhlai, on the northwest coast of Moresby Island.
  • Sulustins, on the east coast of Hippa Island.
  • Ta, on the east coast of North Island.
  • Te, on the west coast of Graham Island opposite Frederick Island.
  • Tlgunghung, on the north side of Lyell Island.
  • Tlhingus, on Louise Island.
  • Tohlka, on the north coast of Graham Island just west of the entrance to Masset Inlet.
  • Widja, on the north coast of Graham Island just west of the entrance of Masset Inlet.
  • Yagun, on the north coast of Graham Island.
  • Yaogus, on the southwest side of Louise Island.
  • Yastling, in Naden Harbor, Graham Island.
  • Yatza, on the north coast of Graham Island between North Island and Virago Sound.
  • Youahnoe, given as a Kaigani town, perhaps identical with the town of Kaigani.

Makes me wonder if the same isn't available for Kwakwaka'wakw etc; I'll look around taht site.Skookum1 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)