Talk:Haggadah of Pesach

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[edit] Article needs a lot of help

There are many mistakes in the article, it doesn't use the right tone. And there are more links than text in the article. In my opinion, the article should start again. I am starting a new version at Wikipedia:Sandbox/Haggadah. ems 11:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

One more point, the article doesn't even talk about Kaddesh to Nirtzah. And it would seem the Artscroll haggadah isn't Orthodox, which isn't the case. ems 11:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and "rewrote" the article, but only in terms of the language, not so much the facts. I also incorporated your ordering of the Seder. Perhaps you can add some more beef to the article factually and fix the errors you mentioned. (My knowledge of the Haggadah isn't so large ;) Also... I couldn't find much of anything that wasn't self-referential on the Kafra Haggadah. Chris 10:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Should it be Haggadah of Pesach or Haggadah shel Pesach? ems 14:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Haggadah of Pesach with a redirect from Haggadah shel Pesach? I'm also partial to Haggadah of Passover, because I don't know how many people will look for Pesach over Passover. Chris 04:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I meant Haggadah of Pesach with everything redirecting to it, or Haggadah shel Pesach with everything redirecting to it? ems 11:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with what's normally done for articles related to Hebrew things. I'm more inclined to have Haggadah of Pesach because "shel" will be confusing for people who aren't familiar with Hebrew. Chris 03:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well is Yinglish known better than Hebrew? ems 14:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article also disambigulate to Aggadah?

It should be in the "See also" section. ems 01:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

Voicing my disagreement with merger with Passover Seder. Both articles have potential in their own right, even if right now they are merely repeating each other. Chris 02:17, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The Passover Seder article "repeating" of this article is also highly incorrect. Another vote of keeping both, I will work on fixing both, before Pesach this year. ems 11:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
These two articles must have a clearly defined scope. As it stands now there is a lot of overlap. As neither article links to each other, and there isn't anyone to my knowledge who contributed to both it seems that they were created independently with the same subject in mind. As the Haggadah is a book about the Pesach seder, I would suggest that Passover Seder deal with what goes on the first night of Peasach and Haggadah of Pesach deal only with the actual book, not what is inside it. It can deal with different manuscripts such as Sarajevo Haggadah, the history of the work, and the different commentators to it. Jon513 20:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
That's what I had in mind for the two articles. I've been working on doing some research on the history, but haven't had as much time as I'd like. I'd much rather see this article focus on the history of the book itself than on a description of what happens throughout the night. Chris 23:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The order of the Seder is the whole haggadah. I plan on fixing both up. The haggadah article can talk about the haggadah while the Passover Seder can talk about the actual service. ems 00:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
So we seem to be in agreement that the Kaddesh, Urechatz, Karpas section should only be in Passover Seder. But if it is removed from the Haggadah there is no article left (alternativily: there is an article that needs to be written). In any even there should be some sort of tag at the top that point people who want the Kaddesh, Urechatz, Karpas to Passover Seder. perhaps:
This page is about The Haggadah as a book. For information about what is inside the Haggadah, see Passover Seder.

Jon513 12:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I am saying just the other way around. Those are the actual contence of the haggadah - they just need expanding. Passover Seder should be about the service. Just like Sidur and Tefilah. ems 15:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I don`t understand. In Sidur it does not talk about the different part of prayer, or what is in the Sidur - that is in Tefilah. In Sidur it talks about the history of the sidur, different versions and variations. should`t it be the same here? namely kaddesh, urechatz karpas etc should be in passover seder Jon513 18:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that the Passover Seder article should be merged with the Haggadah article. The Haggadah is only the guide to how to conduct a Seder; there are other reasons and symbolism for why the Seder is going on. However, the way the Passover Seder article is written, it is nothing more than another version of the Haggadah article. And the way the Haggadah article is written, it looks like a laundry list rather than an encyclopedia. Let's rewrite both! Yoninah 23:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yoninah: It was you that had a talk with me about both the articles on IRC? If yes, what is your opinion now? And what would you say should be on what article? ems 20:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
NO, that was me. we both see that there is too much overlap with these two articles and one has to be severly cut. I think most of the information should be in Passover Seder, you think most of it should be in Haggadah. Frankly I don't really have such strong feeling either way. If you want to change it, go ahead. If you don't do it soon (one week), I'll do it my way. deal? Jon513 21:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
And I think that the information on the order of the Seder that's at the bottom of this article right now should be in Passover Seder, but fleshed out in much more detail. Just thought I'd add my two cents ;o) Seqsea (talk) 21:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The order of the Seder is the whole thing that makes up the haggadah. The Passover Seder article should be about anything that isn't the order. Eg. minhaggim. ems 21:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry of the confusion, I thought you might of had a different wikipedia and IRC nicknames. Its was nice talking to you. :) ems 21:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] this is kind of entertaining

The four questions in Klingon

Maybe it can be appended to the article or one of the related ones, in a tasteful way. I'll leave this to the discretion of the regular editors. Phr 00:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

there is currently an inactive klingon wikipeida [1], but I don't believe this belongs here. Jon513 16:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haggadah

Article haggadah should not redirect here as the Haggadah of Pesach is not the only haggadah. As I understand it haggadah is any traditional Jewish literature, including many portions of the Talmud. The redirect can and will confuse people into thinking that this article is what haggadah is, not what this specific haggadah is.--24.137.137.229 09:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

In contrast, I suggest that this article should move to Haggadah with a note at the top about aggadah. That would gibe with dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster and Dictionary.com. They define haggadah as meaning in one sense "aggadah" (spelled differently only because it's adopted into English from Aramaic) and in another sense the text of the Passover seder. Dictionary.com puts those meanings in the opposite order.
To the best of my understanding, "Passover Haggadah" is by far the more common meaning of "Haggadah" in the English language. "Haggadah" gets six times as many Google hits as "aggadah". When I checked the first 50 hits for "haggadah", every single one referred to the Passover Haggadah.
Also, consider the Jews. Among Jews, participation in the seder is the rule while participation in study of Jewish texts is the exception. In the USA, 4.3 million Jews attend a seder according to the 2000 survey. [2] Now consider the 5.2 million Israeli Jews. I didn't find the statistics, but it's safe to say that most of them attend a seder. Therefore the majority of the world's 13.0 million Jews attend a seder. [3]
--Hoziron 07:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Hoziron, although the lead here should explain the other uses. Johnbod 14:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] set text of the haggadah

user:Rickyrab edited the article to reflect the view that there are many texts of the haggadah. While I can understand his confusion, as there are many different printings of the haggadah with different commentaries, the main text of the haggadah (a collection of Mishnaic passages) is almost invariably the same. 13:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a traditional Haggadah text, true, but there are many variants based on this original plank. So, yeah, I reverted. — Rickyrab | Talk 06:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, "almost invariably" implies there are variations nonetheless. — Rickyrab | Talk 06:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Can you point me to a single different text of the haggadah? I cannot think of any. When I said "almost invariably" I was referring to minor difference in kiddush and some of the songs at the end. It it is still at it's core the very same text. There may be a few feminist, communist or Christians who change the haggadah for their own reason, but it would be giving them undo weight to present radical changes from fringe groups in the last few decades (of a book that is 2000 years old!) as a major alternate text. Jon513 17:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ricky, I understand your perspective. But you have to acknowledge that until the 19th century there was the Tannaitic source that the Haggadah is, with some Rishonic and Early Acharonic additions. After that, modifications have been made by various streams of Judaism. Those tend to be minor. JFW | T@lk 23:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, My family uses the goyische(Reconstructionist/secular humanistic) hagadah(because my grandfather is so vehemently anti anything that smells even remotely frum, even if it is reform.)So the text is so drastically different, it lacks most of the canonized text and the integral parts(I have sat my family down and actually handed copies I made of the hagadah (the canon text) so that we could have a real Seder, in the original Hebrew/Aramaic. So, yea there are modern day changes that have become normal(If you could call a hagadah printed in 1902 and used in my family, however torn., stained or ragged, since we came to America, Modern) Then again, it skips most of magid and the eser hamakos.

Ah git voch und a git moed --Shuli 01:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It might be useful to organize a discussion of the texts by denomination, noting that Orthodox Judaism uses a fairly consistent standard text with only very minor variations, that Conservative Judaism generally uses the same standard text but may make somewhat more variations, and that Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Humanistic Judaism use different texts, and provide some of the text(s) they use. In addition to its wide contemporary use (Orthodox Judaism is the dominant denomination in the world and the other variants are widespread only in North America), the standard text is very old, key elements of it go back to the days of the Talmud almost or completely verbatim, and hence has a great deal of history to it. I believe its historical role adds to its notability. --Shirahadasha 04:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birds' Head Haggadah?

No mention of the Birds' Head Haggadah? -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)