Talk:Hackney Central

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The content of this page is temporary. Most of the substantive content will be moved to London Borough of Hackney. It should only contain information relating to the central area of Hackney, broadly the area surrounding the top of Mare Street near the Town Hall.

The old 'hackney' is being replaced with a disambiguation page that will lead here, to the modern borough and to the old LCC borough and to other meaning of 'hackney'.

Tarquin Binary 13:53, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Didn't quite implement the above. Too many links to Hackney (geographical) exist to force users to go through a disambiguation. So we have now:

  • Redirected 'hackney' to the London Borough page
  • Added top link to disambiguation page at the top of Borough page.
  • Edited some of the borough-wide content out of this page, though it still needs more work.
  • Referenced this page as the Hackney (central) district from the Borough page, besides its link from disamb.

Besides cleaning this up, hope to add more substantive content to all the Hackney pages.

Tarquin Binary 15:56, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

(In the meantime, Hackney (central) now dropped in favour of Hackney Central to match the station)

OK, poor old Hackney Central is now a real stub, because much of the material has been moved to the borough. But it deserves better, since it is the historic centre, and would have been what any one would have understood to be Hackney up until the 1899 reorganisation.

Fortunately there is no shortage of material on this district, so will work up an historical essay soonest. And there are plenty of local links available.

Tarquin Binary 13:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Note for future reference. We have no stub for Kingsland for some reason... Tarquin Binary 13:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I know it's a rubbish pic. Was helping a friend with their shopping, unfamiliar camera, sun in the wrong place (hence the white sky) etc etc. Will get a better one soonest, plus one of the Town Hall for the Borough page.

Anyone know how I could get the pic to appear above the infobox?

Tarquin Binary 15:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I did some revision of the Hackney Central page in July, mainly using Homerton and Stoke Newington as templates. I think most of the changes you made to that revision make sense - so, no great argument there. At the time I was just disappointed that Wiki had so little to say on Hackney and in particular the local area!

I have been thinking about what more can be said; there's a good article on Stepney/Whitechapel area that I thought I would aspire to equal on the locality. As equally old settlements, Hackney Central and Homerton have just as much history! I do have some more information on Sutton House - written by the property manager - but I will have to edit furiously to make it suitable as a dictionary entry for inclusion, and will, of course bow, to any further edits the community sees fit.

Unregistered user - Kevin 08:20, 05 September 2005 (UTC)

Utterly agreed there's lot's more to be said - and the Whitechapel piece is definitely the touchstone. But I've been looking round London stuff in general and it sort of looks as though it got abandoned last year - at least in terms of substantive content. As you say, disappointing...
Anyway, perhaps we should divide this stuff up - I was contemplating doing a Hackney Central history piece in fact, but Stoke Newington is in an even worse state, needs a complete rewrite and it's where I live, so next bit of writing I do would likely be that. So, go for it, nice to know we're not duplicating effort.
But right now, I'm concentrating on taking pix. Was going to get some more Hackney Central ones next weekend, including Sutton House, St John's and St Augustine's tower, plus the Town Hall for the Borough(s) pages. But if your friend is the property manager at Sutton House, maybe they could supply some interior shots, I'm getting lots of exteriors.
Tarquin Binary 13:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry removed 'Hackney Independent' - they're with all the other parties under LBH. Have concerns about the 'about Hackney' site, it seems to just contain local advertising - and to have an 'abandoned air' about it!

Over a year later, still vaguely planning to write some history for this page and Homerton.:User: kbthompson 01:36 15 July 2006

OK, added a 'Historical Hackney' section. This is a beginning - surprisingly little to say about Hackney village, all the historical action seemed to be in Homerton! Linked to St Augustine's Tower & Hackney (parish). Swapped images on the page, so they appeared in right section. Also, done a more extensive Homerton history section. I'd also previously done a 'cultural quarter' section. Some may disagree, but it reflects how the council sees the 'town square' and groups together some of the important local institutions. Anyone else active in Hackney (Tarquin?) I would value your feedback Kbthompson 10:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Infobox redesign

Basically, Mrsteviec, I like it a lot. Much cooler than the old district boxes. But doesn't it risk getting slapped down by the WikiLondon Project people as being non-standard?

Tarquin Binary 16:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

It is the standard. MRSC 17:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Great! Pardon my ignorance, I'm pretty new. I just assumed the old one was standard, because I've seen it so often. Obviously I have some reading to do...
Tarquin Binary 17:15, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Channel 4 programme

On Channel 4 UK's Television Programme "The Best And Worst Places To Live In The UK" 2006, which was broadcast on Channel 4 UK on the 26th October 2006, it was officially branded as the Worst Place In The UK To Live In: 2006.

Was added here today by an anonymous user, while it may be factual that the TV programme occurred, its subject was the London Borough of Hackney. By the criteria of another channel 4 programme, LBH is one of the best places to buy and invest ... So, yer pays yer money, and takes your choice ... but this particular article is about a district in Hackney; and not one about LBH. So, the note is misplaced here. Kbthompson 22:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hackney Central → Hackney, London — It is actually called Hackney. This is also a common name Simply south 16:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

[edit] Survey - Support votes

[edit] Survey - Oppose votes

Oppose discussion below Kbthompson 17:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:
  • I can well understand the motives behind such a move, and it replicates the discussion had over a year ago (above). Much of the content of the page was moved to London Borough of Hackney at that time to ensure that content was not duplicated in each district page of the borough, of which this article is representative. I added much of the historical section, and that concentrates solely on this area and historical articles have been added on an ad-hoc basis for a number of districts where there is important history. The name arose out of the consensus at that time, as <Tarquin Binary> felt the district was now more associated with the station, than the historic core around the churchyard; and there was too much confusion between this district and the eponymous London Boro. Calling it "Hackney, London" provides a misleading sense of the level of the area in comparison to the district. Actually, it's been called Hackney for nearly a thousand years, so it doesn't need to be qualified - the other uses are mere youthful cyber-squatters in comparison. 8;) Kbthompson 17:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
    Does that mean that this article should be titled simply Hackney, and the current contents of Hackney moved to Hackney (disambiguation)? -GTBacchus(talk) 20:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
eh, probably, but the problem is that in the vernacular, Hackney is used to refer to the whole of LBH, not just the bit called, eh ... Hackney ... that's why it got called Hackney Central (the last time) ... Kbthompson 21:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
So why Hackney Central and not Central Hackney? After all, adjectives in English normally come before the noun. I see that there is a ward by this name, but that is surely a reason to name the historic town otherwise, not to grab the name. Imc 16:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
As per "Tarquin Binary 15:56, 27 August 2005 (UTC) -> (In the meantime, Hackney (central) now dropped in favour of Hackney Central to match the station)" - as you say, it's also the name of the ward, it also matches the formation of names like Hackney Downs (go on, mention South Hackney!).
Also, someone kindly added Georgian Hackney and copy/pasted both here, and to Clapton Square. I'm not sure whether Clapton Square is in Hackney Central ward, or neighbouring Clapton, or indeed Chatham (essentially Homerton). I know the Augustine tower was 'moved' from Chatham to Central ward, but not sure about the rest of St Johns Gdns and Clapton Square. The old village of Hackney is not conterminous with Hackney Central ward. I'll have a think about the geography, and make it appear in one place; probably needs a good edit and wikifying, as well. Kbthompson 16:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
An explanation that was given by London Transport or its predecessors for station names like Finchley Central or Hounslow Central, was that the name was independent of the original local names, and were only intended to make sense in terms of the railway and its stations. I would think that the same logic would (or should) apply here. Actually, I'm not that familiar with Hackney, so I probably should retire from the discussion here. Imc 19:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Welcome your comments, although I think it makes sense to keep Hackney Central, it is, as you say an argument that affects the way most of London is presented. I just don't want to be the one to write "Hackney, London in the London Borough of Hackney (known popularly as Hackney), but we're specifically referring to the area around the churchyard and Hackney central station" - which is where I see us ending up. 8^) Kbthompson 09:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC) (it was late, I forgot to sign it, sorry)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Boundaries

I promised to have a think about the boundaries of the area (on 16 Jan). In common with much of London, they are more than a little fuzzy. So, any comments welcomed.

  • Historically, Hackney village extended along a single road (Mare St), and its extension Church Street (now essentially the Narrow Way). While it is a 'ribbon development', we shouldn't think of it as thin, as many properties had extensive gardens behind them. (For instance: the Mermaid Tavern gardens extended from Church Street to - the then non-existent Amhurst Rd), and even 'lowly' cottages had land to feed themselves.
  • On the north, the village was bounded by Lower Clapton and Upper Homerton, indeed I think the new church was built in upper Homerton, and this is reflected by it being included in Chatham (ward) - which is essentially the old upper Homerton. Same goes for Clapton Sq, although there is an argument for it lying in Lower Clapton. (The villages were really very much check-by-jowl here).
  • On the south, there was a cluster of houses where Well St enters, not enough to be a village in its own right, but Hackney village petered out before then.
  • On the west, it blends into Hackney Downs and ?. The east is bounded by the southern lump of Homerton.
  • Through the whole lot, Hackney Brook ran, dividing the villages and most of the development, was below that.

So, the new church was built on church field, an empty field dividing Hackney village from Upper Homerton; and Clapton Sq in Upper Homerton/Lower Clapton. It being the only place left to build, until the railway came through and Victorian developers tore down the medieval heart of the village and replaced it with much what we see today.

Any comments on that view? The current Georgian Hackney section is a little geographically challenged, hopping around what seems to be the metropolitan borough. I don't want to discourage the editor, but a lot of it seems to be taken wholesale from Hackney walks (copyright), and is repeated (verbatim) in a page on Clapton Square. Kbthompson 08:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've looked and Hackney Downs only really refers to the park, otherwise prove me wrong. I'm sorry i am still pursuing this but from what you have put above, shouldn't this whole area at least be named Hackney village? Simply south 11:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hackney Downs (ward) has an independent existence around the common, I'd have to look in the histories, but Hackney village didn't extend that far, and I don't think there was a village there. There was probably a 'grand house' in the way. The brook meandered up in that direction. Amhurst Road was driven through at the time of the railways (1850s), and took land from the houses on Church St (Narrow Way). Mid-1800s VH mentions long avenues of dwellings at Hackney Downs, threatened by the railways. You might be right, but 'Hackney village' has no modern existence (except possibly as an estate agent's dream). Hackney Central exists, and while not conterminous with Hackney village, it's as near as these things ever get. The pockets of Georgian development were located outside Hackney Central (except possibly for the square north of Well St (now surrounded by flats, see 'Lost Hackney'), and an early Georgian mansion on the west side of Mare Street, used as a social club). Hackney village is used in the Victoria History of Middx, but only really up to about the mid-19th, it would make sense, if it weren't for the houses inbetween. This 1805 map shows the relationship of the villages, and subsequent development. Kbthompson 16:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox UK place

A new, more concise infobox has been implemented for UK places. I've applied it here, but in checking I notice that the coordinates are wildly wrong, placing Hackney Central in the middle of London Fields. The pin in this case should at least be on Mare St, or the Narrow Way (I feel). Kbthompson 15:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)