Talk:Hacker ethic

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Could it be possible to say the hacker ethic is "both A and B" instead of "either A or B"? --Papyromancer 19:40, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

No. The second ethic is more grey hat ("Deface if you want to, just don't cause any permanent damage"-ish), the first more white hat.

I guess one could also say that the first one defines white hat hacker ethics, the second one defines black hat hacker ethics (although black hat hackers might reduce that sentence to the part about fun and exploration) and the mix of both would represent grey hat hackers.

Either way, there are multiple definitions and they shouldn't be mixed by saying hacker ethic is both -- it really is either the first or the second or both, depending on which hacker subculture (that'd be a sub-subculture then) you ask.

I don't think the sentence "[..] hacker ethic is either: [..] and/or [..]" works, tho, so that might need a bit of rephrasing. What about "hacker ethic is either [..] or [..] or the combination of both" or something along those lines? I'm sure some native speakers could come up with a better version than that. -- Ashmodai 02:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

This article should be revised in order to eliminate redundancy.

Let me pontificate here for just a few sentences.

The term "Hacker Ethic" predates 1984 when somebody wrote it down in a book. I was a computer science student at the University of California at Berkeley in the late 1970s, and we were all taught that term at that time. It may have indeed been handed down by Richard M. Stallman of MIT, but in the '60s of early '70s, because it was extremely well known and used throughtout the Computer Science academic community at my time at Berkeley. I am not going to make a federal case about it -- it does matter, after all, who first publishes something outside of that academic community, I suppose. However, it was indeed written down in internal manuals and publications at Berkeley, and I dare say at all other Computer Science think tanks in the country, if not throughout the western world.

Second, in the original sense of the term Hacker Ethic, there was never a concept of a "black hat". The very concept of hacker was good. A hacker was one who had great powers to make computers do what they ought to do, all for good. They could control any computer any way they wanted to. There was never a conception of doing so with any but altruistic or benificent intentions. Hackers were heroes. They furthered the Hacker Ethic, that computers were supposed to benefit mankind, and that computing ought to be available and plentiful, and software that made the computer do more things was to be shared freely, so that people's computer, that they paid a lot of money for, after all, would actually do more of what it was supposed to do in the first place. To hold one's computer for ransom by refusing to provide software to make it do what it was supposed to do in the first place was wrong. To try to bankrupt people by charging exorbitant rates for every new functionality was wrong, even unthinkable. Hackers returned the power to the people by making that computer do their's, the owner's, bidding, not the bidding of some software vendor. The term "hacker" was reserved for the very best, not just any standard-issue programmer. It was a term of honor. It was always "white hat".

The way that the general over-culture has come to use the term "hacker" is a shame. They really ought to use the term "cracker", which is what hackers of the original sense of the term have suggested. Anybody purporting to suggest that a "black hat" subculture exists within hacker culture has no clue what a hacker really is. Such a person is a Cracker, and all that "black hat" culture is Cracker Culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qodesh (talk • contribs) 18:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I intended to sign the above pontification. I blew it. That shows my lack of skill. I am not a hacker. I hardly was ever even good enough as a computer programmer to be able to appreciate the greatness that was a true hacker's work. -Qodesh (72.89.67.237 (talk) 19:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC))

aputtu That is interesting. I did some research into the term "hacker ethic" since 2002 and hasn't been able to come across usage of the term before Levy (1984). From what I understand, the term "hacker ethic" does not make sense as such to Stallman, despite that ethics is a main concern to him. That the term "hacker ethic" may have been handed down by Stallman could seem likely at first glance, but I don't really think that it is the case. Ethics and hacking is different traits according to Stallman, and he does not apply the term hacker ethics onto what he does himself. The original version of The Jargon File (maintained by the old school guys) doesn't include terms like "ethic" or even the word "social" - talk about hardcore geek, was my first reaction studying it. The closest I got to ethics were the entry ""The Right Thing" - which is used very broadly to all kinds of ethical-irrelevant actions as well. A comparison of The Jargon File and The New Hacker's Dictionary edited by Eric S. Raymond shows that Raymond has added a whole social dimension to the hackers selfconception that at least didn't appear in the Jargon file. In a online live-session (was it for Newsweek, can't recall) I got to ask Steven Levy whether he had coined the term, which he said he did - I can't find the session online anymore however. It is therefore interesting to hear that the term "hacker ethic" was in use at Berkeley, and I would love to hear more about it. For historical reasons it would be very interesting to know more about Bill Gosper's conception of hacking and ethics, since he is said to have influenced the hacker culture profoundly at the MIT AI Lab back in the 60's.

Folks,

I'm not a hacker either - just interested in the culture and how the minds of hackers, good software engineers, and programmers work. I work at an hardware and software design company. I'm surrounded by folks who love to hack (that is, solve problems). One doesn't have to be a hacker to write or quote others' description of hacking.

If you feel that this entry is redundant - please, add your knowledge and information!

I think the "white hat" and "black hat" terminology is very confusing. Am I supposed to think of Linux when I read that?

Thanks!

TSWcontentlady (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

1th of June 2008, aputtu: The following sections makes absolutely no sense to me. I think it is a bad joke, but even if it wasn't it still does't make any sense to me:

Both Himanen and Torvalds were inspired by the Sampo Finnish mythology. The Sampo, described in the Kalevala, was a magical artifact constructed by Ilmarinen, the blacksmith god, that brought good fortune to its holder; nobody knows exactly what it was supposed to be. The Sampo has been interpreted in many ways: a world pillar or world tree, a compass or astrolabe, a chest containing a treasure, a Byzantine coin die, a decorated Vendel period shield, a Christian relic, etc. In the Kalevala, compiler Lönnrot interpreted it to be a quern or mill of some sort that made flour, salt, and gold out of thin air.