Talk:H. Paul Shuch

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5 April 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.


This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

[edit] Conlict of interest and Autobiography

Please see the posting at the Conflict of interest / Noticeboard, here diff. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

My edits to this page hae been questioned. Indeed, the subject has edited extensively material posted by others. The majority of this activity has been to divide the biography (initially entered as one long paragraph) into logical sections. Little new content has been introduced, other than to provide family background and add a photograph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drseti (talk • contribs) 03:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for you reply - I have restored the {{COI}} and {{Autobiography}} tags to the article until the matter is resolved at the Conflict of interest / Noticeboard, here. I will also copy your comment above there, and invite you again to comment there too. I noticed that the current biography seems to be largely copied from your biography at http://www.setileague.org/admin/paul.htm, which I presume you wrote all or most of. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the bio borrowed heavily from the SETI League one, which was written largely by Heather Wood, the SETI League's secretary. I believe the bio was originally posted to Wikipedia by Yasmin Walter, a colleague then at Frankfurt University. My edits split that rambling bio into sections. In that sense, it is *not* an autobiography, though I added some personal material to flesh it out. I am also pulling together additional (independent) citations and references, which will be posted within about a week (as I'm on travel at the moment). I understand your tag restoration, and thank you for your efforts. Dr. SETI (talk) 14:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice on the COI/Noticeboard that you question whether The SETI League is a one-man show. Valid question. The organization was founded in 1994 by NJ industrialist Richard Factor and his NYC patent attorney, the late Orville Greene. The original board included two others (an attorney and an accountant). They then hired me as executive director. I was one of three or four paid employees for about a decade, before funding dried up. There is a volunteer Advisory Board, which was (until 4 days ago) headed by Sir Arthur Clarke. So, not a one-man show, though I have much influence. I continue as executive director emeritus on a purely volunteer basis, and now serve on the Board, also in a volunteer capacity. I put the Microcomm link at the bottom of the web pages when I stopped being paid, and began contributing website maintenance to the organization through that consulting firm, which I do indeed own. Does volunteering one's services to a nonprofit charity constitute a conflict of interest?? Dr. SETI (talk) 14:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the five pillars of Wikipedia is that everything is supposed to be written from a neutral point of view. A conflict of interest arises when an editor with an interest in an article also edits it (summarized as Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals, companies, or groups, unless you are certain that the interests of Wikipedia remain paramount.). So your work off Wikipedia can not be a COI here, but making edits about it can. Please see WP:Autobiography too. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification. In this case, the page has been tagged "citations needed." Even though I am the subject of the page, I am in a position to provide the relevant, disinterested citations. Thus (at least to the extent of providing citations, which I am currently doing), I trust that I am permitted to make these edits. Dr. SETI (talk) 02:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think that is OK, and addresses the notability question too - the relevant guidelines and policies for reliable sources is WP:RS and for citations it is WP:CITE. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added to the bio several citations from disinterested authors, in both published books and academic journals, which should help to address both the notability and the COI questions. More citations and references can be provided if required. Dr. SETI (talk) 19:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In order to further address COI concerns, I have just added references to two additional articles in New Scientist, by two different disinterested authors, which substantiate claims made in the WP entry. I could continue ferreting out and posting such citations, but fear that if I do so myself, that might generate more COI concerns than it resolves! Dr. SETI (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed rewrite

The article is still tagged for COI and Autobiography. To eliminate the tags, we'd need to make a substantial improvement.

The article currently reads like a resume, not a standard Wikipedia article. It needs to have much of the material pruned. I'd drop the 'Current Memberships' section, since we don't track those for other biographies. I'd reduce the 'Leadership positions' section to just a few lines. Under 'Honors and awards' I'd drop all the awards that we don't have Wikipedia articles on. I'd drop the section on Family Life because it is not common for us to have family coverage for other professionals. I'd drop the Favorite Year section. Most of 'Amateur Radio' should go. The part that I would keep, and rewrite, is 'SETI Activities.' I'd try to find a neutral way to describe the significance of the SETI League. If anyone has comments on this idea, please let me know. EdJohnston (talk) 04:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • All of these sound reasonable to me. The AfD discussion also recommended "pruning the non-notable sections (e.g. Musical Influences)". They also suggested SETI League should have its own article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • My thanks to all of you who are contributing ably to the cleanup and rewrite of my WP article. Your professionalism is evident, and appreciated. Dr. SETI (talk) 14:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I completed my planned reforms of the article, and removed the {{autobiography}} and {{COI}} tags since I believe these problems are fixed. The article now focuses on Shuch's amateur SETI work. Your comments are welcome. EdJohnston (talk) 03:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I think removing the COI and autobiography tags is justified - thanks for your edits. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I notice that you decided to delete the amateur radio section, and retain the one on SETI activities. In this case, I believe my amateur radio background to be relevant, since my major contribution to SETI science has been the coordination of hundreds of the world's radio amateurs into a global SETI observing network. The SETI League draws heavily on the efforts, energies, and expertise of radio amateurs -- thus I would request reconsideration of this section's deletion. Dr. SETI (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
There was a deletion of reference to the SETI Permanent Study Group of the International Academy of Astronautics; the edit summary questioned that Group's notability. However, SPSG is included in the WP articles about my fellow co-chairs Seth Shostak and Claudio Maccone. SPSG has served in an advisory capacity to the UN Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space (COPUOS), which I believe makes it worthy of mention. Dr. SETI (talk) 13:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Have any news media reported on these activities of the SETI Permanent Study Group? E.g. newspapers, magazines? Any mention in scientific journals? EdJohnston (talk) 13:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the IAA SPSG activities have been routinely reported in Acta Astronautica, New Scientist, and JBIS. Dr. SETI (talk) 13:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
If you have actual references for us to look at, it might be worth reconsidering inclusion of the SPSG. EdJohnston (talk) 02:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Since you prefer material that's cited or available on the web, here's a few for starters. Acta Astronautica vol 58 issue 9, May 2006, pp.478-484. Excerpt available online at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V1N-4JRKCSF-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=64f398ed98881dbce959062e880f5b18 See section 5, Policy and Societal Issues. Mentioned by Maccone in "Lunar Farside Radio Lab," Acta Astronautica vol 56 issue 6, pp 629-639, available at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V1N-4F65K32-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=378484e2c4507c749140e004544134cd . Peregrinus Interstellar mentions the SPSG at http://info.peregrinus-interstellar.de/?page_id=4 (also mentions me in connection with it, along with colleagues Ivan Almar and Claudio Maccone). An IAA space policy proposal regarding lunar protections cites the SPSG at http://iaaweb.org/iaa/Scientific%20Activity/Study%20Groups/SG%20Commission%205/sg52/s52.pdf Leeds University cites Dr. John Elliott's SPSG involvement at http://www.lmu.ac.uk/ies/comp/staff/jelliott/jre.htm . Australia Telescope National Facility cites it at http://www.atnf.csiro.au/people/rnorris/SETI/index.html . Author David Brin cites it at http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2005/04/misc-matters-beaming-spam-at-stars.html Active-seti.org mentions it at http://www.active-seti.org/biographies.html . http://www.contactincontext.org/cic/v2i1/SETI_Olympiad.htm , one of my own articles in the online peer-reviewed journal Contact in Context mentions the SPSG. Seth shostak's blurb on the Harker Speaker Series at http://www.harker.org/page.cfm?p=1307 mentions SPSG, as does an article by Zaitsev posted to arxiv.org at http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0610/0610031.pdf . NASA lists it in one of the bios of its Science Communications Focus Group at http://nai.nasa.gov/library/downloads/institute/Science_Comm_FG_members.doc . Harvard University lists SPSG in its Astro Resources page at http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/astro.resources.html . Steven Baxter's speaker bio at http://www.denvention.org/programming/bios.php mentions it. It's cited in Russian at http://www.polit.ru/science/2006/03/13/meti.html , in German at http://www.diebadhonnefer.de/im-multiversum-unsere-sonne-das-fenster-zum-universum.htm , in Japanese at http://www.ne.jp/asahi/tokyo/sd/5_FS.html , in Italian at http://www.bed-and-breakfast.it/festval_scienza_2007/festival_scienza_incontri_conferenze.pdf , in Dutch at http://www.stimuleringsfonds.nl/ContentFiles/Stifo%20JV061.pdf , in French at http://www.les-repas-ufologiques.com/Le%20journal%20des%20actualites%20ufologiques%202006.htm , and in a couple of dozen other languages in various internal UN documents. Googling "SETI Permanent Study Group" brings up 865 online mentions. Dr. SETI (talk) 20:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Overview, as rewritten, now states "believed by colleague Jack Unger to be the creator of..." Since other colleagues (Birkill, Cooper - see references 2 - 4) have asserted the same thing, might this be better as "believed by colleagues to be the creator of ..."? (Could then move the other two footnotes up to this sentence.) Dr. SETI (talk) 13:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Birkill's opinion is only available from a self-published web site. Cooper's book could be more substantial; I note it is available on Amazon. Without seeing how Cooper actually describes your work I couldn't say. EdJohnston (talk) 13:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Direct quotes from Cooper's book, as well as from two periodicals (SatFACTS and Coop's Satellite Digest), are cited on this page of my commercial website: http://microcomm.net//services/tvrohist.htm Dr. SETI (talk) 13:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with EdJohnston and note that to be included in the article, these need to be cited to references that meet Wikipedia's policies and guidelines on verifiability and reliable sources. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I just learned that I am cited in DePree, Marvel, and Axelrod, Recent Advances and Issues in Astronomy, 2003 Greenwood Press. In the Biographical Portraits section, pp. 167-168 credit me with the first home satellite TV receiver -- can be seen on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/gp/sitbv3/reader?asin=157356348X&pageID=S04Z&checkSum=jz17kfPOwggibND7ObBib0W4KfXwKyXWS6PQRfSP0hY= Dr. SETI (talk) 21:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)