Talk:Gypsy Vanner horse

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This is very misleading. Tinker usually refers to Irish Travellers (or itinerants, pavees, etc.), not the horses! The horses are usually refered to as Pieball ponies or just Pieballs in Ireland, though it may differ elsewhere.--Zilog Jones 19:35, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article needs some serious editing by those who know the subject well. I corrected some spelling and a little grammar; but I sense there is a lot of repetition. Cadillac 05:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


Silver dapple and "chocolate palomino" (whatever that is--palomino with sooty?) are NOT NOT NOT repeat NOT the same thing at all! The silver dapple gene modifies a BLACK base colour; a palomino is a red (chestnut) horse with one cream gene.

Contents

[edit] NPOV

The entire article seems to question the legitimacy of the Gypsy Vanner breed, especially the second paragraph! Admittedly a biased viewpoint, check out http://www.gypsyvannerhorse.com or http://www.gypsyvanner.us for more details about what makes a Gypsy Vanner separate from an Irish Cob or other horses.

NDCompuGeek 23:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I also have 2 Gypsy Vanner horses (picture) in Germany which are now a distinct breed with their own stud book and breed standard. In Ireland they are only known as Piebald and/or Skewbald (in earlier times a mixture of breeds; Connemara, Clydesdales, and Irish Draught Horse, Hackney and others) in 3 different types, Pony, medium and tradition heavy, depending on your use (riding or coach horse). The German name Tinker is unknown in Ireland maybe because this word is used as a derogatory term for an itinerary traveler. Since around 1995 the Gypsy Vanner (tinker) has been exported to the Netherlands and Germany. First the travelers would keep their best horses for breeding, but later (money matters), they also sold the better horses outside of Ireland. The result is, that this year people from Ireland were coming to Germany to buy Tinker’s to breed at home, they were also interested in my mares. Links to websites of US breeders is not possible, since the history of Gypsy Vanners in the USA is too recent. In Germany is fact: Every Irish cob is a Tinker, but not every Tinker is an Irish cob. Borsi112 19:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


This is Dennis Thompson founder of the Gypsy Vanner Horse Soceity. a name can be a powerful thing both good and bad. The first name in the world to identify a selectively bred horse raised by Gypsies is Gypsy Vanner Horse. In 1998 when the breed was introduced to North America and on the Internet at www.GypsyVannerHorse.com the world went crazy for a breed of horse it did not understand. When people arrived at GypsyVannerHorse.com on the Internet they read a romantic story about two people discovering a breed of horse and saw images of magic looking horses but they really did not learn about the breed in a profound enough way. I will always regret that but Cindy and I had our web site built before we even owned a computer.

All other names came after Gypsy Vanner Horse and were coined by different people for different reasons and with different motivations. Because this is the first breed in the history of breeds to establish itself in the age of the Internet there has been both a great opportunity to educate people about what the breed is and is not(which did not happen soon enough)and an unpresidented opportunity to exploit horses raised by Gypsies while creating great confusion about them. The struggle is a problem that is as old as time memorial but one that has been compounded by the age of the Internet. It is breed lover focused on a breed verses a person focused on making a transaction by selling horses. Horse breeder verses Horse trader has existed in neighborhoods throughout the world forever but the Internet is our neighborhood now and it has clouded our ability to differentiate one from the other. Please take the time to read "All in a Name" at the FAQ section of www.GypsyGold.com. The read will give you a feel for the passion, anguish and sensitivity that went into naming this magical breed Gypsy Vanner Horse. The name Vanner was always the perfect name to describe the perfect horse to pull a caravan, the struggle was over the name Gypsy.I hope you enjoy the read. Dennis

Use the wiki style like before!!


No matter who you are, Dennis Thompson. You have to change this article in the style it was, include the images! Borsi112 21:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reverted WHAT?

Vandalism? How is this accusation made when all that was done is take an article reeking of POV and try and set it straight? NDCompuGeek 21:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

What I see is, that user Dryant distroyed the whole article include the pics. Wertzu 22:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I sincerly apologize for destroying the pictures,that was not my intent, this is all new to me. I only want people to understand the Gypsy Vanner Horse breed correctly. There is so much confusion and misinformation about horses raised by Gypsies on the Internet. If I can figure out how to do it, I will post pictures of Gypsy Vanner Horses with the breed description the next time. You will see a definitive difference and magic that exists with the breed verses the type. I understand exactly what happened with horses raised by Gypsies after the Vanner breed was introduced in 1998. I am not the enemy, I simply want the breed understood and established properly. please keep an open mind until we have communicated enough for you to form a better understanding of the goals of the GVHS and the breed.


Dear Borsi112.....I have stared at your description of a Gypsy Vanner Horse and pondered how I can edit it without dramatically changing its content and have concluded that it is pretty much impossible.

How about I leave your article alone except for the stuff that defames and devalues the name Gypsy Vanner Horse. I will add my article under yours seperated by the title Gypsy Vanner Horse. I will do it complete with pictures of Gypsy Vanner Horses next to mine and will caption my pictures Gypsy Vanner Horse. You caption your pictures tinker horse,Irish cob or anything you wish other than Gypsy Vanner Horse. Lets allow the public to sort out the breed based on this formula. Deal? I want you to understand what the breed is and is not, I really do, are you interested ?

Dear Dryant. This is not only my description, what you can see at the history page! There were many people working at this article. I fear, that we have here only a language problem, because this english article is for UK, Irland and USA. So maybe we are talking about the same horse breed with different names in the different countries (see description at http://www.gypsydrumhorses.com or http://www.irishtinkerhorses.com with GVHS sign on homepage). And: What is about that horse named Bandon, that is sold as Tinker stallion (german: Tinkerhengst) in April 2006 from the family Pierkes in Euskirchen, Germany (check http://www.pierkes.de/hengste.htm) to Texas, USA, that now is registered as Gypsy Vanner Horse (http://www.gypsymvp.com/horses/bandon/bandon.htm) in the GVHS? Same horse, different breed? But if you are the only one, who knows it better than all the others, we will try this: If there is nobody with an other opinion within the next few days, I will move this article to maybe "Irish Tinker Horse" and you create a new article about "Gypsy Vanner Horse", what ever the difference is. We have to wait for the answers here. And Dennis, please sign your comments by typing four tildes(~). Borsi112 23:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for responding Bors112, I totally understand that there are lots of people who take a general view of horses raised by Gypsies on the Internet. The Internet has been the biggest struggle in establishing the breed as it was intended to be by Gypsies. A famous Gypsy breeder once said to Cindy and me when we told him our plans to only recognize his selectively bred horses as his breed(that is truly all that are a breed) he said "you know you are doing this the hard way, but it's the right way"

The task of getting his breed understood has been pretty monumental when there are messages that confuse people about what the breed really is on the Internet. It is common as you suggest for the incorrect information to simply get parroted from one person to another.

The breed,(approximately 20%) of horses that Gypsies raise lives in all the names you suggest except the name drum horse but all of those names except the name Gypsy Vanner Horse were initially driven by horse traders. For this reason there are a large percentage of the other 80% that are a type not a breed recognized as a breed in other names.

The trader wanted all the customers he could get so he or she promoted the breed to have a much broader genetic base and look than it really does. The trader didn't know any better nor did he care if he did know. Today the struggle is still between breed lover and horse trader on the Internet. You seem like a nice guy who is a breed lover that has been influenced by horse trader misinformation. I was in contact with a horse trader disguised as a Romany expert on horses raised by Gypsies that greatly influenced the breed description of the tinker horse. He was eventually recognized as a fraud but his breed descriptions exist today.

There is a look with identifiable genetics and a specific value that is the breed. The big volume of horses raised by Gypsies are of unknown heritage that often contain smooth legged genetis as you suggest in your breed description. If you want to take a general view of horses raised by Gypsies and say that they are all the same then this is fine but it confuses the effort that is The Gypsy Vanner Horse. Again this has not been an easy thing to do. I would love to explore how we might work together to get the breed understood and recognized in your county. I said this before but it warrants repeating, I am not the enemy, just the opposit. Please do not believe the garbage about the name Vanner being some marketing ploy or that the name represents some inferior animal. That is all horse trader bull designed to destroy the goodness that is a sincere effort to establish the legitimate breed. If someone buys and sells Gypsy horses they dont want to hear about genetics or that their available inventory is less than they want it to be or that it cost more than they want it to cost.

I was involved when every name you have mentioned was born and know exactly how they were born. For the first time I will soon create a time line of names and share that histroy with you. I am not in this for money, I am in it to do something worthwhile for a breed and breed lovers, it is truly that simple. I have designed products for animals for over 30 years. Innovation is often born from the recognition of pain and then the development of a product or concept that takes the pain away. There is pain in the general publics ability to understand and embrace this breed with it's,histroy properly understood, it's look intact, it's genetics understood,it's established values intact (one Gypsy to another)and with integrity world wide.

I found Cindy, my wife dead in my barn in 2002. She was foal watching the first selectively bred mare in the world to be recognized as a breed (Dolly) and fell to her death from a second story balcony. I disappeared into my home in a fog of deep depression and reclusion for a very long time.

I have remarried a very talented lady and together we are developing an idea to take the pain away from the experience of embracing this breed. We would love to inspire breed lovers everywhere with this concept of breed and breeder integrity. I hope you do not feel that I am an enemy to other names. It is just impossible to get people to really understand the breed if they think all names mean the same thing. There are a couple ways to create unity world wide and I would love to have you consider those ways if you are interested. Dennis R Thompson ( Sorry i dont know what four tildes are?)

tildes? Please watch this to sign your posts. Wertzu 07:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

It seems that there is a lot of disagreement about just what a Gypsy Vanner horse is or isn't, so I've placed a cleanup tag on the article to attract some attention from some more objective sources. I also deleted the message from the organization and replaced it with an external link. Wikipedia isn't a place for orgaizations to issue statements.

Since there seem to be numerous people here representing various websites regarding this breed, I'd like to ask that people refrain from citing those websites as their sole source of info. This isn't because I don't believe you or don't trust you, but because it's poor academic form to cite yourself as a source. Book sources, newspaper articles, or official breed handbooks are really the best sources here.Kerowyn Leave a note 21:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kerown, the message deleted was from the official breed registry of The Gypsy Vanner Horse. There is no other registry for Gypsy Vanner Horses. The registry was established in 1996 and is the oldest registry in the world for a selectively bred horse raised by Gypsies. It is also the only registry in the world for a selectively bred horse raised by Gypsies that is founded on an extensive four year journey to understand Gypsies and their horses.
I am the founder of the Gypsy Vanner Horse registry and the man who named the breed Gypsy Vanner Horse. All horses raised by Gypsies were called coloured horses until The name Gypsy Vanner Horse or Vanner for short was carefully chosen to seperate the Gypsies breed from the horses they raise which are a type, not a breed. 80% are not a breed and the information you currently have describes these horses not the breed. It only makes sense that a breed does not come in a wide variety of looks as the message about the breed indicates.
The information and names that confuse the Gypsy Vanner Horse and horses raised by Gypsies in general are a direct result of misinformation born on the Internet after the Gypsy Vanner Horse breed was introduced in North America and on the Internet in 1998. Please reference a harcover book published by Story publishing titled 96 horse breeds of North America(available at Barnes and Noble) and a book titled Horse breeds of the world published in London England. These two books and others recognize The Gypsy Vanner Horse as the breed. I will attempt to place another simple straight forward message from The Gypsy Vanner Horse Soceity ( The Registry)
In the last post I may have attempted to explain more than was necessary. There is one Gypsy Vanner Horse Registry and only one. There will soon be 1000 registered Gypsy Vanner Horses in North America and there were 16 in June of 1998. This is about growing pains not breed confusion. None of the horses pictured on Wikipedia are registered Gypsy Vanner Horses. User:Dryant Signature added by Kerowyn Leave a note 03:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay. The books you mention sound like a good unbiased source. If you have these books, maybe you could cite some references from them in the main article.
Please do not place any messages from the Society into the Wikipedia article, as this is a violation of neutral point of view. You can quote materials on the website, but you can't post them verbatim regardless of whether you are the copyright holder.
Also, people keep telling you to sign your comments. To do this you need to type 4 tildes which look like this: ~ The key is at the top of the QWERTY keyboard, right next to the 1 in the number row. You just need to hit SHIFT+~ to get the key. Alteratively, there is a button at the top of the wiki edit window that will put the signature automatically. It is the 10th button from the left, and looks like cursive handwriting. Kerowyn Leave a note 03:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breed/landrace

This may be regarded as a formal breed in many areas, but there is no doubt that it remains a landrace in its place of origin. My feeling is that "breed or landrace" does cover it accurately.--Richard New Forest 11:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Searching for other articles and comparing them with this one, I think things may be a little more complex than I'd assumed in my previous comment. The ponies and cobs kept by travelling people in Britain and Ireland are clearly a landrace. The "Gypsy Vanner" under that name is an attempt to create a formal breed using stock from the landrace (this is of course one of the usual ways in which formal breeds develop). However, the existence of pedigreed Vanners does not make the landrace disappear nor make it any less valid in itself. I suggest the following approach:
  • There should be a general article on the Gypsy pony or coloured cob landrace, with brief descriptions of any sub-types, including the "Vanner" breed.
  • These would then have "main article" tags, linking to this article (and any others).
  • This article (and any others) would refer back to the general article.
Alternatively, this article should be broadened to include the landrace type, and any other coloured-cob types derived from it. This is what I had in mind in the first place, and is in fact the approach suggested by the current first paragraph. However, I think it would only work if "Gypsy Vanner Horse" was the generally accepted term for all such cobs, which as far as I know it is not (not in the UK at any rate).
I think the danger of the current version of the article is that its existence in isolation suggests a POV that this type is the only "real" or "proper" one. It starts out by describing the landrace and its various names, then goes on to talk about it as a breed. This might be valid if the landrace had disappeared (as, say, with the Black Horse landrace which became the Shire horse breed) – but that is not the situation here.--Richard New Forest 14:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My thinking is that we may need two articles. The people who promote Gypsy Vanners as a breed (especially in the USA where they are paying through the nose for them, see here) are quite adamant about their status as a "real" breed, and those who don't care for them much are equally adamant that they are not. It's an edit war I don't even want to start, frankly. (Note POV here on talk page and in page history) A second article titled "Coloured Cob" or something might be the way to go. There is also a need to discuss the drum horses, I think there's a bit on that over in Clydesdale horse. A new article could keep the landrace focus and a UK orientation, this one could be more of a breed focus. For ideas on a UK-focused article, perhaps see Cob (horse). Montanabw(talk) 19:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
That's pretty much what I was thinking. I saw the stuff about Clydesdale drum horses, though not sure if they're related. In the UK there are people doing much the same as the Gipsy Vanner thing under the name of coloured cob or gypsy cob. Cob (horse) is a bit different, as it's more to do with the "large pony/small cart-horse" type, rather than any particular breed or indeed landrace.--Richard New Forest 20:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed material

The following section was added to the article, completely blanking what was there. That was inappropriate per wiki guidelines and has been reverted, but in the spirit of providing an opportunity to improve the article, here is the material that I removed, should some of it be deemed suitable for incorporation. As written it is too filled with peacock words, probably has copyvio issues (possibly verbatim from the URL) and has massive POV problems, but perhaps there is something salvagable in there. Montanabw(talk) 22:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] grammar please

i went throuh and corrected grammar in the first few paragraphs. it needed it. If someone would please go through and correct the rest of the page-- im sure it needs it as well.

Skiendog 13:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The article needs LOTS of help, if you can do further, go for it. Montanabw(talk) 05:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

'Until recently, British Gypsies, known also as Travelers, traveled throughout Great Britain in brightly colored, intricately carved horse-drawn wagons called "caravans." Gypsy breeders envisioned an extravagantly colored, heavily feathered horse topull these bright wagons as well as complement them. According to the breed’s American discoverer, the Gypsy-bred horse called the Vanner is the embodiment of that vision. Two stallions of Irish origin are reported to have originated the breed around 60 years ago. One stallion, known as Sonny Mays, was sired by a colored Irish stallion on a mare owned by a Traveler. The second, called The Coal Horse, was born in Limerick, Ireland. These two stallions sired most of the foundation stallions of the breed.

In theory, the Vanner was bred from horses of three British draft breeds—the Shire, Clydesdale, and Dales Pony; in actuality, a Vanner’s ancestry may include other breeds, even nondrafts. The Romany Grai, another, more lightly framed Gypsy-bred horse, is reputed to have some Fells Pony ancestors. The Fells Pony is very closely related to the Dales Pony but is smaller and less heavily built. The extent of other breeds in its pedigree separates the Vanner from other Gypsy-bred horses.

Because of the breed’s ancestry, Vanners possess characteristics from the Shire, Clydesdale, and Dales Pony, which is the heaviest pony breed in Great Britain. It is responsible for the Vanner’s small size and the dainty head seen on some Vanners. Typically, a Dales Pony stands between 14.0 and 14.2 hands but weighs around 1,000 pounds. Since the Shire, Clydesdale, and Dales Pony all have feather, the Vanner does also. The source of the Vanner's extravagant coloring may be the Shire. Color was fairly common among Shires until around the 1900s, when solid coat patterns became fashionable.

What were the reasons for breeding a small draft horse such as the Vanner? One such reason, to have a horse showy enough to complement the brightly colored wagons driven by the Vanner’s Gypsy breeders, was given above. But the Vanner was not just for show; he performed a vital function—pulling his family’s wagon. For this type of work, a heavy draught horse such as the Shire, which typically stands between 16.2 and 17.2 hands and weighs between 2,240 and 2,688 lbs, was overkill. Even the smaller Clydesdale was too much horse for this task. An even smaller draft horse such as the Vanner was capable of performing the work needed and required only a fraction of the feed needed to maintain the massive Shire. This need to create a draft horse capable of performing the relatively light work of pulling a wagon and needing minimal feed was the primary reason for the creation of the horse we call the Vanner.

While the Vanner was bred for the road, the nomadic life of the road further shaped him, both physically and mentally. By necessity, he was hardy, thriving on uncertain forage found at campsites as the Gypsy caravans traveled from place to place. These campsites most likely provided no shelter for the horses; his profuse mane, tail, and feathers provided protection from the cold and wet. He was an integral part of his family, much as the Arabian was, and so had to be tolerant and kind. He had to able to be handled and managed even by the family’s children. Any horse which behaved aggressively was immediately banished.

The American discoverers of the breed were Dennis and Cindy Thompson. While driving through the English countryside in 1994, they glimpsed an extravagantly feathered black and white stallion and stopped to inquire about him. Two years later, they imported the first two Vanner mares and founded the Gypsy Vanner Horse Society, the breed's registry. For further information on the American discovery of the breed, see Gypsy Gold’s web site: www.gypsyvannerhorse.com.

The Thompsons coined the name “Vanner” for this imported breed. They intended the name to refer not to all Gypsy-bred horses, but only to those which they felt embodied the vision of the breed’s originators, whom they sought to honor. The Vanner, as defined by the Thompsons, possesses the heaviness and abundant feathering of the three draft breeds from which it was primarily created.

Despite its youth, the Vanner breed is rapidly gaining recognition. The Gypsy King, Gypsy Gold’s fabulous dressage-trained Vanner stallion, was featured at the Kentucky Horse Park in 2001, and Breyer introduced a model of him which you may see at your local tack shop. The breed was featured in November 2003's issue of Horse Illustrated, and famed equine photographer Mark J. Barrett has included several Vanners in each of his past four year's "Horse Feathers" calendars. In 2004, the Gypsy Vanner was accepted by the United States Dressage Foundation All Breeds Program so that individual Vanners can now win breed-specific awards for achievements in dressage activities sponsored by the USDF.'

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_Vanner_horse"

[edit] Fixing up page

I'm trying to figure out if I can make this page reach the potential it has. So far removed the thing about 'coloured cobs' being fashionable. Anybody with me here? --UnicornTwilight (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

So far so good. Cutting the junk is always a good start, then reworking what's left so it flows well, then adding more material and sources is usually a good approach. Ask User:DanaBoomer if she wants to help, she has been rehabbing a lot of breed articles, or just look over some of the designated horse breed "Good articles" for ideas. (these are Appaloosa, Arabian horse, and soon, we think, Thoroughbred). User:Countercanter also has been doing a fantastic job with the assorted warmblood breed articles. (Warmblood itself is mostly a portal to the others, the specific breed articles are where Countercanter was working). Good luck! Montanabw(talk) 23:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Cut out a few more biases and plain nonsense, and about to open a new window to look at Arabs. --UnicornTwilight (talk) 02:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not for advertising

Hi, I've removed a bunch of links which didn't meet with WP:EL. Please read this policy to understand what kind of links are allowable. --Bardcom (talk) 15:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)